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Eternal hell with new creation?

T. E. Smith

T. E. Smith

Romantic Rationalist
Member
The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?
 
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D-D-W said:
Ecclesastes was written from the viewpoint of someone in this life - not from the vantage point of eternity.

So as it appears TO US who are alive, the dead are not suffering.
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The words about eternal suffering are symbolism for the following---Those not allowed into Gods kingdom, miss each day, miss each day of Gods love, it never ends. They have traded 70-100 years of a sinful existence and miss out on trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years, never sick, not aging like now, never without--likened to be an eternal suffering-it never ends. God is LOVE, not a sadist who would condemn a nothing mortal to a literal eternal suffering.
 
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keiw1 said:
The words about eternal suffering are symbolism for the following---Those not allowed into Gods kingdom, miss each day, miss each day of Gods love, it never ends. They have traded 70-100 years of a sinful existence and miss out on trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years, never sick, not aging like now, never without--likened to be an eternal suffering-it never ends. God is LOVE, not a sadist who would condemn a nothing mortal to a literal eternal suffering.
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So death by fire is quick ,painless,flooding painless.

I have veterans friends who wake up to the sound of a mother being burned alive running to save her baby who died later as she layed it down to give it a chance and died

You suffocate as you burn painfully. It's loud a high pitch shriek like a banshee .

With drownibg it's not oh I'm under I can't breathe and it's done. It's a quick fight for life and you know and it hurts .

There is a vet who drowned and was rescued and lived that moment for long time and couldn't be near rapids.another who went through sand can't be near water and watch any video on death by drowning.he remember how long he was held under water and passing out.

Sulfur burns and will burn your lungs .
 
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jasonc said:
So death by fire is quick ,painless,flooding painless.

I have veterans friends who wake up to the sound of a mother being burned alive running to save her baby who died later as she layed it down to give it a chance and died

You suffocate as you burn painfully. It's loud a high pitch shriek like a banshee .

With drownibg it's not oh I'm under I can't breathe and it's done. It's a quick fight for life and you know and it hurts .

There is a vet who drowned and was rescued and lived that moment for long time and couldn't be near rapids.another who went through sand can't be near water and watch any video on death by drowning.he remember how long he was held under water and passing out.

Sulfur burns and will burn your lungs .
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I dont know exactly what point you are trying to make.
There is a point taught about eternal suffering that mentions worms are there. No worm could stand a hot place of suffering, but 6 feet under is where worms are.
 
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keiw1 said:
I dont know exactly what point you are trying to make.
There is a point taught about eternal suffering that mentions worms are there. No worm could stand a hot place of suffering, but 6 feet under is where worms are.
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God choose stoning .

That's quite painful. He can't just end our lives quick and no pain


He choose the way Jesus died.that was torture .



You can't just say he isn't a sadist when God commanded stoning in front of the congregation for certain sins.opened the earth up to show isreal and they h heard it.

PTSD is literally watching death and trying process that or trauma .
 
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keiw1 said:
I dont know exactly what point you are trying to make.
There is a point taught about eternal suffering that mentions worms are there. No worm could stand a hot place of suffering, but 6 feet under is where worms are.
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Ah just like the 144,000 males from each tribe .but not that gender or the fact John sees others in heaven an innumerable mass there too.


It's not a fire as Satan himself is cast into it and tormented.but let's ignore Greek usage of myths and just ignore the Hebrew view of Sheol.

Hades and Sheol are similar in both cultures.
 
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keiw1 said:
Maybe should meet the true God--Deuteronomy 32:4= The rock, perfect in his activity, For all his ways are justice( perfect balance on his justice scales= an eye for an eye) a God of faithfulness with whom there is no injustice. Righteous and upright is he.

So with perfect balance on his scales--He could not or would not condemn a nothing mortal to trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years of suffering for 70-100 years of an unrepented life.
Proving that story was symbolism. Jesus said--Those walking the broad and spacious path will be destroyed.
The true God set before all-LIFE or DEATH, (both are eternal)-Deuteronomy 30:19
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And you are basing that on YOUR OWN idea of what is "injustice." If if does not meet YOUR understanding of "Just" God cannot do it because HE is never unjust.

What about GOD'S idea of what is just and unjust? If HE says a trillion years of agony is fair treatment for rejecting Him, so be it.
 
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jasonc said:
God choose stoning .

That's quite painful. He can't just end our lives quick and no pain


He choose the way Jesus died.that was torture .



You can't just say he isn't a sadist when God commanded stoning in front of the congregation for certain sins.opened the earth up to show isreal and they h heard it.

PTSD is literally watching death and trying process that or trauma .
Click to expand...

God didnt choose the way Jesus died-Sick mortal hearts chose the way. What did God show Israel? God hates sin, and warned in advance that stoning was allowed for the unrepentant. The mortal chose that path. All use their free will to walk the path they choose.
 
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jasonc said:
Ah just like the 144,000 males from each tribe .but not that gender or the fact John sees others in heaven an innumerable mass there too.


It's not a fire as Satan himself is cast into it and tormented.but let's ignore Greek usage of myths and just ignore the Hebrew view of Sheol.

Hades and Sheol are similar in both cultures.
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Yes both Sheol and hades translate the grave. It isnt 144,000 from each tribe its 144,000 total=The little flock( Luke 12:32) this is the bride of Christ. Will rule as kings and priests on thrones beside Jesus. Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)
The other sheep( John 10:16)=the great crowd no man can number( Rev 7:9)--these are promised earth( Matt 5:5-Psalm 37:9-11,29) Prov 2:21-22) not heaven.
 
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keiw1 said:
Yes both Sheol and hades translate the grave. It isnt 144,000 from each tribe its 144,000 total=The little flock( Luke 12:32) this is the bride of Christ. Will rule as kings and priests on thrones beside Jesus. Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)
The other sheep( John 10:16)=the great crowd no man can number( Rev 7:9)--these are promised earth( Matt 5:5-Psalm 37:9-11,29) Prov 2:21-22) not heaven.
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I'm also Jewish .
No we didn't say when my grandparents,uncle died that we buried them Sheol in those prayers .

Sheol is in jewry not the grave they pray for the soul there to ascend up and out and it's not for the ressurection .

When the hanashiac comes he will find the graves of the children of jacob and raise them from the dead and take them to isreal.thats what the rabbi said .

You can't ignore history
 
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D-D-W said:
And you are basing that on YOUR OWN idea of what is "injustice." If if does not meet YOUR understanding of "Just" God cannot do it because HE is never unjust.

What about GOD'S idea of what is just and unjust? If HE says a trillion years of agony is fair treatment for rejecting Him, so be it.
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Dont be so silly. God taught us all true justice= an eye for an eye-perfect balance on justice scales--So for 70-100 years of an unrepented life God could not, would not condemn one to trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years of punishment--there is no justice in that scenario. All his ways are justice. His scales are uncorruptable.
 
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keiw1 said:
God didnt choose the way Jesus died-Sick mortal hearts chose the way. What did God show Israel? God hates sin, and warned in advance that stoning was allowed for the unrepentant. The mortal chose that path. All use their free will to walk the path they choose.
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He didnt?

Let him who hangeth on the tree be accursed

For it was since the foundation. Of the world that Christ came to die.

God foreknew it and even gave Rome the power .

Jesus said for you have no power to crucify me save that it was given from above

You ignore that God poured brimstone and fire on Sodom .

He flooded the earth ,he open up the land to swallow those that rebelled against Moses

He told Moses to stone men for idolatry .

But man invented the cross when God used it and ordained that to be the way .

For without the shedding of blood there is no remissions of sin


Nothing happens that God doesn't allow .he doesn't sin ,but he will use it .
 
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jasonc said:
I'm also Jewish .
No we didn't say when my grandparents,uncle died that we buried them Sheol in those prayers .

Sheol is in jewry not the grave they pray for the soul there to ascend up and out and it's not for the ressurection .

When the hanashiac comes he will find the graves of the children of jacob and raise them from the dead and take them to isreal.thats what the rabbi said .

You can't ignore history
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Its you who are mistaken. There is passage after passage about the dead going to Sheol in the OT. So yes the Israelites knew its reality. The Israelites most assuredly knew of the resurrection. God knew his plan from the beginning after the sin in Eden. They were Gods chosen he taught them the reality of what would occur.
 
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jasonc said:
He didnt?

Let him who hangeth on the tree be accursed

For it was since the foundation. Of the world that Christ came to die.

God foreknew it and even gave Rome the power .

Jesus said for you have no power to crucify me save that it was given from above

You ignore that God poured brimstone and fire on Sodom .

He flooded the earth ,he open up the land to swallow those that rebelled against Moses

He told Moses to stone men for idolatry .

But man invented the cross when God used it and ordained that to be the way .

For without the shedding of blood there is no remissions of sin


Nothing happens that God doesn't allow .he doesn't sin ,but he will use it .
Click to expand...

Yes God gives all govts power, yet they choose to do satans will over Gods will. Jesus will crush every mortal lead govt off of Gods earth at Armageddon-Daniel 2:44, Rev 16, Rev 19
Jesus paid the ransom sacrifice--it clearly shows Gods justice in every dealing. A perfect sinless mortal sinned and lost a good standing for mortals with God. Jesus a perfect mortal remained sinless, yet paid the wages of sin= death as the ransom sacrifice to buy back what Adam lost.
 
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keiw1 said:
Its you who are mistaken. There is passage after passage about the dead going to Sheol in the OT. So yes the Israelites knew its reality. The Israelites most assuredly knew of the resurrection. God knew his plan from the beginning after the sin in Eden. They were Gods chosen he taught them the reality of what would occur.
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When you can read and teach and speak Hebrew I will buy that .



You literally argue the Name is YHWH.

The oldest part of the Bible found in proto Hebrew is YHW.

No,vowel marks at as it was a tiny piece where the curses are found .


You can't skip what the Hebrews say about themselves .they admit different views.but Sheol is always not a grave but a place of judgment and or rest .it can be like hell or not .they don't get donagmatic on it's belief but it's not the word for grave
 
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keiw1 said:
Yes God gives all govts power, yet they choose to do satans will over Gods will. Jesus will crush every mortal lead govt off of Gods earth at Armageddon-Daniel 2:44, Rev 16, Rev 19
Jesus paid the ransom sacrifice--it clearly shows Gods justice in every dealing. A perfect sinless mortal sinned and lost a good standing for mortals with God. Jesus a perfect mortal remained sinless, yet paid the wages of sin= death as the ransom sacrifice to buy back what Adam lost.
Click to expand...
God choose it .

He didn't have to .

He choose to use blood of animals and man.


My point made
 
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jasonc said:
When you can read and teach and speak Hebrew I will buy that .



You literally argue the Name is YHWH.

The oldest part of the Bible found in proto Hebrew is YHW.

No,vowel marks at as it was a tiny piece where the curses are found .


You can't skip what the Hebrews say about themselves .they admit different views.but Sheol is always not a grave but a place of judgment and or rest .it can be like hell or not .they don't get donagmatic on it's belief but it's not the word for grave
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The tetragramoton = 4 letters. Either YHWH or YHVH. They arent 100% positive. I am positive Jesus kept his promise to keep on making his Fathers name known-John 17:26) and in light of Hebrews 13:15--one must make a public declaration to Gods name--The name known since the 1500,s is Jehovah. I truly believe God and Jesus themselves have made that name known to the whole earth.
 
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