Eternal hell with new creation?

[T. E. Smith]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

 

[Goldwing]

as no one has ever died and went straight up to heaven.

Thanks for posting this statement, which is the truth. How I cringe, when so ofter people mention their loved one has gone to be with the Lord. It just enforces Satan first lie to Eve, "you will not certainly die" (Gen. 3:4).

 

[T. E. Smith]

No one has ever died and went straight up to heaven? Read Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Please show us in scripture where anything that God has set forth has been radically changed.

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

God's word is never changing, but man's doctrines love to change the word of God.

Are you saying you don’t believe the death and resurrection of Christ changes matters in earth and in Heaven? You need a scripture that? Jesus said all authority has been given to him on earth and in Heaven. One gets the impression that this wasn’t always so but is, in fact, a change.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Thanks for posting this statement, which is the truth. How I cringe, when so ofter people mention their loved one has gone to be with the Lord. It just enforces Satan first lie to Eve, "you will not certainly die" (Gen. 3:4).

So when Stephen was dying and saw Jesus standing at the throne, Jesus was just waving and indicating “see ja in a couple of millennia….sleep well.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Is there going to be immense pain for a temporary time after death?

Depends upon the choices we made while still in the body.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No one has ever died and went straight up to heaven? Read Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

This account is unlikely to be a parable. Parables don’t ever mention names of particular people. Jesus was likely telling what he saw.

 

[T. E. Smith]

This account is unlikely to be a parable. Parables don’t ever mention names of particular people. Jesus was likely telling what he saw.

Right, some people think that. Either way it does teach the idea of someone going up to heaven immediately upon death. And also someone to Hell.

 

[T. E. Smith]

So when Stephen was dying and saw Jesus standing at the throne, Jesus was just waving and indicating “see ja in a couple of millennia….sleep well.”

Well, technically, under the doctrine of soul sleep, Stephen's next conscious moment would have been at the resurrection where he saw God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Right, some people think that. Either way it does teach the idea of someone going up to heaven immediately upon death. And also someone to Hell.

Correct. The thought that Jesus was describing something not true but useful is an idea a few of certain theologies embrace.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, technically, under the doctrine of soul sleep, Stephen's next conscious moment would have been at the resurrection where he saw God.

But why would he do that if not to receive him?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Correct. The thought that Jesus was describing something not true but useful is an idea a few of certain theologies embrace.

Not that it is untrue, the question is if it is a specific case of specific people, or if it is just a picture of the true situation of the righteous man vindicated in heaven and the wicked man getting the hell he deserves.

But why would he do that if not to receive him?

Sorry, your pronoun usage is confusing to me.

 

[Goldwing]

That is not why the wicked are not admitted to Heaven but have to spend eternity where the Devil and his horde go. There are only two residences. God is not trying to solve the “sin problem” by this arrangement. And what is more, justice demands payment. Jesus paid the price for whosoever will, our choice. Whosoever will not pays the price themselves. Justice and love.

Dorothy Mae, Please read prophecy 16. (Rev. 20:11- 21:1) Keep in mind that not all of the 17, prophecies found in Dan.,, and Rev. start and end according to Chapter designations. The original texts did not have either verse or chapter designation, and were added centuries latter by translators. Don't be confused with the fact that prophecies can begin and end anywhere within a chapter or they can start in one chapter and end in the next.

As you read through this prophecy, keep in mind that all fulfilled prophecy to date has been fulfilled in the chronological order given within the prophecy, therefore this is natural law God built into them. Note, each event.

First, vs. 11-13, the G. W. T. J, where the wicked are Judged. In this judgement Jesus does not determine if they are lost, He made that judgement in the pre-advent Judgment prior to His second return, and they have been asleep in death for the previous one thousand yrs. In this Judgement they are informed as to why Jesus decided they could not be saved, and too, their length of suffering in the fires of Hell, to atone for their sins. Note the next event, (vs. 14), they are thrown into the lake of fire [Hell] which is the second death. Recall, (Rm. 6:23) " the wages of sin is death". Note, following this event, is (Rev. 21:1) in this event the New Heaven and Earth is created.

Now based on just this one prophecy the Bible does not support the wicked will live with the
devil, and his hordes. they suffer the second death, of which there is no resurrection. Death means dead.

Would God create a New Heaven and Earth and then have a spot where the wicked suffer for eternity?

Jesus paid the price for whosoever will, our choice. Whosoever will not pays the price themselves. Justice and love.

This is a true statement, as I understand it. The wicked must atone for their own sins, and that must be paid by way of their own blood. For the Bible teaches, " for without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not that it is untrue, the question is if it is a specific case of specific people, or if it is just a picture of the true situation of the righteous man vindicated in heaven and the wicked man getting the hell he deserves.

The description of Hell is either accurate and true or the story tells us nothing.

Sorry, your pronoun usage is confusing to me.

Why would Jesus stand up when Stephen was dying if not to welcome him? It’s the only sensible answer.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy Mae, Please read prophecy 16. (Rev. 20:11- 21:1) Keep in mind that not all of the 17, prophecies found in Dan.,, and Rev. start and end according to Chapter designations.
The original texts did not have either verse or chapter designation, and were added centuries latter by translators. Don't be confused with the fact that prophecies can begin and end anywhere within a chapter or they can start in one chapter and end in the next.

Please don’t assume others you engage with are ignorant unless they give indications they don’t know something.

As you read through this prophecy, keep in mind that all fulfilled prophecy to date has been fulfilled in the chronological order given within the prophecy, therefore this is natural law God built into them. Note, each event.

First they are not written in chronological order in the OT, but then you say they are fulfilled the order written. Only Revelation? If that’s Gods “natural order” how come it’s not true in the OT?

First, vs. 11-13, the G. W. T. J, where the wicked are Judged. In this judgement Jesus does not determine if they are lost, He made that judgement in the pre-advent Judgment prior to His second return, and they have been asleep in death for the previous one thousand yrs. In this Judgement they are informed as to why Jesus decided they could not be saved, and too, their length of suffering in the fires of Hell, to atone for their sins. Note the next event, (vs. 14), they are thrown into the lake of fire [Hell] which is the second death. Recall, (Rm. 6:23) " the wages of sin is death". Note, following this event, is (Rev. 21:1) in this event the New Heaven and Earth is created.

Verse 15 refers to the book of life with names in it. That’s the Lambs book of life. The statement indicates some standing are in the Book of life and some not. Otherwise it wouldn’t have been mentioned. The believers, btw, are also judged according to the deeds done in the body.

Now based on just this one prophecy the Bible does not support the wicked will live with the
devil, and his hordes. they suffer the second death, of which there is no resurrection. Death means dead.

First, basing a theology on one lone verse is a mistake. This is pretty common knowledge and not just my opinion.

If dead means dead then the resurrection is impossible. And how can there be a second death if dead means dead? That makes no sense unless your view is incorrect.

The text says they go into the lake of fire. Doesn’t sound pleasant.

Would God create a New Heaven and Earth and then have a spot where the wicked suffer for eternity?

Would God reward the wicked giving them exactly what they want?

This is a true statement, as I understand it. The wicked must atone for their own sins, and that must be paid by way of their own blood. For the Bible teaches, " for without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.

Pretty sure they aren’t forgiven and once dead, they haven’t any blood to shed. Besides, you said dead is dead. How can there be a judgement at all if dead means dead?

 

[stovebolts]

Stovebolts, I'm sure you believe, "...the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rm. 6:28), but it appears by the above quote you deny the first half of that verse which I'm sure you know, ," For the wages of sin is death".

You are coming to a false conclusion based on a partial quote. I would urge you to go back and read everything I’ve written prior to that snippet. I would then encourage you to seek further clarification on any phrases you may have questions or concerns over.

What I most often see in discussions about hell is it’s geared toward a future destination, and based on that message of fear, people are prodded to say a magical prayer accepting Jesus as Lord and poof, no more fear of eternal torment. This is false religion.

Jesus did not preach this way, neither should we.

Hell has as much to do with our current state as it does with our eternal state.
Eternity has no beginning and it has no end. As a result, we are experiencing eternity now. In simple terms, Eternity, by its very definition does not magically start when we die. Eternity is always now…. Today.

In the Lord prayer, Jesus teaches us how we should pray, and in one sentence he says to our Father, “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”

What we do today matters. Scripture states, Today, do not harden your hearts. Hebrews 3:15. When we hear Gods voice, yet harden our hearts Gods will is not carried forward as it is Gods will that all be saved, and salvation is now and often,,we are saved from ourselves. Instead of bringing a piece of heaven to earth, we bring hell to earth.

Repentance does not simply mean we feel remorse for our sin. It means making that sin right the best we can. It’s about changing not only our thoughts, but our actions. When we fail to repent, our hearts can become hardened to the pain and suffering we are not only causing to others, but the spiritual damage we are causing ourselves.

As you mentioned, the wages of sin is death. This is not only a physical death, but a spiritual death. Adam and Eve did not physically die when they ate of the tree of good and evil, but the harmony they had with not only God, but with all of creation was also shattered. You could say that on that day, a part of each had died. Adam had referred to the woman as flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone but after their death, he calls the woman Eve, for he knew a part of him died. Tell me, do you yourself know of any relationships that have died?

Today, let us not harden our hearts when we hear the voice of the Lord. We are dead in our trespasses and God desires we be alive in Christ. This also means breaking the cycle of generational sin and reconciling broken relationships. Where we once brought destruction, we can now bring healing. But that healing needs to start first. Our chains need to be broken. Jesus puts it this way, we need to take the log out of our own eye so we can see clearly to take the spec out of our brothers eye.

In summary, hell is not only a future state, but it is a current state and it can be dangerous to only speak of it as a future state.

 

[T. E. Smith]

The description of Hell is either accurate and true or the story tells us nothing.

Are the characters just representative of real events or is it a very specific circumstance? For example, I might tell a story about Bob, a Christian persecuted for his faith in China. "Bob" is not real (I made him up), but his story is real for many people.

OK Goldwing for_his_glory Dorothy Mae We are trying to find the "biblical perspective" on eternal hell and the immortality of the soul past death. Perhaps the issue is that there is no one biblical perspective.

1. Matthew 10:28 says not to worry about those who "kill the body but cannot kill the soul." Rather, we're to fear God who can do both.
2. Matthew 26:41 talks about a conflict between the disciples' "spirit" and "flesh."
3. 1 Corinthians 7:34 says that the unmarried Christian can remain "holy in body and spirit."
4. James 2:26 says that "the body without the spirit is dead."
5. 3 John 2 hopes that the believers will "be in good health [i.e., body], just as it is well with their soul."

These passages are important, but none are conclusive in suggesting a soul independent of the body, a soul surviving after death. Here is indication that the soul does survive after death:

1. Phil. 1:23-24: "My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account."
2. In Revelation 6:9, "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne."
3. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 says, "For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
   1. Even if we are "away from the body", our "earthly home [lit. tent] destroyed", we will still be "at home with the Lord." The implications of a soul surviving after death are crucial.
4. Luke 16:22-23: "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades [this is the ESV translation], being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."
   1. It appears that right after death, the righteous man goes to heaven.

So where does the monistic view (body and soul one, soul does not survive bodily death) find support? Several powerful Torah passages indicate it.

1. Ecc. 9:5, 10: "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten... Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going."
2. Psa. 49:12, 14-15: "Man in his pomp will not remain; he is like the beasts that perish... Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell. But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me." Here we see annihilation of nonbelievers.
3. Job 14:1-2, 10-12, 14: "Man who is born of a woman is few of days and full of trouble. He comes out like a flower and withers; he flees like a shadow and continues not... But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he? As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up, so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep... If a man dies, shall he live again?"
   1. This is the teaching of monism: the soul does not continue after death, not until the resurrection ("till the heavens are no more").
4. Many verses speak of no consciousness in Sheol:
   1. Ps. 30:9; 88:10-12; 115:17; Isa. 38:18
   2. "For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?" (Ps. 6:5)
   3. "What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness?" (Ps. 30:9)
   4. "Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Is your steadfast love declared in the grave, or your faithfulness in Abaddon? Are your wonders known in the darkness, or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?" (Ps. 88:10-12)
   5. "The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence." (Ps. 115:17)
   6. "For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness." (Isa. 38:18)

Here we see that in general, the Torah position is of monism and the NT is of dualism. Authors may also be conflicted upon these topics, or change their minds over a period of time, or even things could be added by editors. All of that can happen with non-biblical books. Why not with the Bible?

It is my contention that there is no one "biblical" position. Even if you don't agree with me (you certainly needn't agree), hopefully these passages I've cited are of help.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are the characters just representative of real events or is it a very specific circumstance? For example, I might tell a story about Bob, a Christian persecuted for his faith in China. "Bob" is not real (I made him up), but his story is real for many people.

OK Goldwing for_his_glory Dorothy Mae We are trying to find the "biblical perspective" on eternal hell and the immortality of the soul past death. Perhaps the issue is that there is no one biblical perspective.

1. Matthew 10:28 says not to worry about those who "kill the body but cannot kill the soul." Rather, we're to fear God who can do both.
2. Matthew 26:41 talks about a conflict between the disciples' "spirit" and "flesh."
3. 1 Corinthians 7:34 says that the unmarried Christian can remain "holy in body and spirit."
4. James 2:26 says that "the body without the spirit is dead."
5. 3 John 2 hopes that the believers will "be in good health [i.e., body], just as it is well with their soul."

These passages are important, but none are conclusive in suggesting a soul independent of the body, a soul surviving after death. Here is indication that the soul does survive after death:

1. Phil. 1:23-24: "My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account."
2. In Revelation 6:9, "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne."
3. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 says, "For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
   1. Even if we are "away from the body", our "earthly home [lit. tent] destroyed", we will still be "at home with the Lord." The implications of a soul surviving after death are crucial.
4. Luke 16:22-23: "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades [this is the ESV translation], being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."
   1. It appears that right after death, the righteous man goes to heaven.

So where does the monistic view (body and soul one, soul does not survive bodily death) find support? Several powerful Torah passages indicate it.

1. Ecc. 9:5, 10: "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten... Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going."
2. Psa. 49:12, 14-15: "Man in his pomp will not remain; he is like the beasts that perish... Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell. But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me." Here we see annihilation of nonbelievers.
3. Job 14:1-2, 10-12, 14: "Man who is born of a woman is few of days and full of trouble. He comes out like a flower and withers; he flees like a shadow and continues not... But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he? As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up, so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep... If a man dies, shall he live again?"
   1. This is the teaching of monism: the soul does not continue after death, not until the resurrection ("till the heavens are no more").
4. Many verses speak of no consciousness in Sheol:
   1. Ps. 30:9; 88:10-12; 115:17; Isa. 38:18
   2. "For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?" (Ps. 6:5)
   3. "What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness?" (Ps. 30:9)
   4. "Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Is your steadfast love declared in the grave, or your faithfulness in Abaddon? Are your wonders known in the darkness, or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?" (Ps. 88:10-12)
   5. "The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence." (Ps. 115:17)
   6. "For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness." (Isa. 38:18)

Here we see that in general, the Torah position is of monism and the NT is of dualism. Authors may also be conflicted upon these topics, or change their minds over a period of time, or even things could be added by editors. All of that can happen with non-biblical books. Why not with the Bible?

It is my contention that there is no one "biblical" position. Even if you don't agree with me (you certainly needn't agree), hopefully these passages I've cited are of help.

We are immaterial souls joined to a physical body created by God from the dust of the ground. God breathed His breath/spirit into our nostrils that made this body a living soul. We are made up of three parts being spirit, soul and body that are joined together when we were conceived in our mother's womb.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The body is physical with five senses being sight, hearing, taste, smell and touch that connects with the world.

The soul is the part of the human being that will live on in eternity and with our soul, not our body, is the part of us that is to love God.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

In those two verses it speaks about our soul as being in relationship with God and not this fleshly body. It's our soul and spirit that needs regeneration by God's Spirit.

The life we have here on earth is temporal as our physical bodies will die and return to the dust and be remembered no more.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The life and the blood is in Jesus who gives our soul eternal life with the Father by that of the blood sacrifice of Christ through God's grace that we are made righteous by the righteousness of God through the Spiritual rebirth. God is not going to reform our physical bodies that have returned to dust, but will raise us from the grave in new glorified bodies that we know not what we will look like.

 

[for_his_glory]

You are relying too much on the KJV, that is the problem I am trying to point out. You must look to the Greek. Jesus only speaks of the final destination of unbelievers using Gehenna, a place so bad that one would be better to cut off an arm or gouge out an eye than end up at. The final destination of unbelievers in Revelation is the lake of fire.

Hades is the "grave" or "abode of the dead." It is hades that is thrown into the lake of fire, after it has given up the dead in it.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

Again, Jesus speaks of the final destination of unbelievers as being Gehenna and Revelation speaks of the final destination of unbelievers as the lake of fire. It is reasonable to conclude that Gehenna is the lake of fire, the place of eternal punishment, or, hell proper. This is the correct understanding. As I stated before, it is unfortunate that the KJV began the confusion by translating three different Greek words as "hell."

I have to respectfully disagree as Gehenna, also known as the Valley of Hinnom is an actual place here on earth. The valley is also known by the name Gehinnom, an alternative Biblical Hebrew form which survived in Aramaic and in the Greek and Syriac known as Gehenna. Jesus spoke in the Aramaic language not in the Greek.

 

[for_his_glory]

No one has ever died and went straight up to heaven? Read Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

It's a parable, not an actual event. Parables like Jesus told were stories used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. But this needs to be another thread.

 

[T. E. Smith]

It's a parable, not an actual event. Parables like Jesus told were stories used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. But this needs to be another thread.

And the lesson is based on reality. But I don't know if it ought to be another thread; I think that parable is very relevant to our understanding of the afterlife