Eternal life being tormented in Hell or Death, What is the wages of sin?

[chessman]

You sound like an attorney on the defensive. I'm just asking, for the sake of this discussion, how TimothyW defines those three terms.

I'm sorry. My fault. I thought the question was addressed to me for some reason. Maybe that's why I thought it just came out of the blue. Nevermind.

 

[WIP]

I know I did not really answer your question. But really. It depends on the passage in question.

Did you have one in mind?

Yes, those which have been quoted with regard to the topic of this thread.

 

[TimothyW]

I'm not going to allow myself to get into the same debate I was earlier but I would like to ask you a question. Maybe you've already done this but could you provide for us your definition of the following words please? I would like to be sure we're all talking about the same thing.

Death
Die
Dead

Death: the end of life. The state of being dead. The opposite of life.
Die: to stop living.
Dead: no longer alive, not alive, deprived of life.

I'm just using the regular English definitions for these words. (Edited by StoveBolts)

I don't think of this as a debate, more like a Bible study.(Edited by StoveBolts)

 

[dadof10]

I see. So as long as you get to define the words so that they don't mean what they mean you believe what they say. Annihilated is your word, not mine. The wages of sin is death. Death does not mean eternal life in hell being tortured. Eternal life is the opposite of death. John 3:16 gives 2 options, perish or have eternal life. Perishing is not having eternal life. Those who perish do not have eternal life on hell being tortured alive forever because they have perished. Words mean things whether or not you want them to.

I am just repeating what the bible says. The wicked will perish and the wicked will be no more. What does psalm 37:20 say? What does Psalm 37:10 say? I'm not saying anything the Bible hasn't already said.

(Edited by StoveBolts)
Let me put this as plainly as possible.

1) The "man of lawlessness" is the false prophet in Revelation.

2) Paul says the man of lawlessness will be DESTROYED.

3) John says the false prophet is tortured (is this word OK?) forever in the lake of fire.

Therefore, the word "destroyed", doesn't always mean annihilated or, to use a phrase you allow, cease to exist. It can, AND DOES IN THIS CASE, mean to be eternally tortured in the lake of fire. So, when discussing the afterlife, the word "destroyed" can mean something other than (insert your favorite word for annihilation here).

(Edited by StoveBolts)

 

[dadof10]

According to the Bible, the lake of fire is the second death. The false prophet is destroyed. The false prophet goes to the second death. The false prophet will die. All of these mean the same thing.

Then all those words mean to be eternally tortured, because Revelation makes it clear that he "will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" in the lake of fire.

 

[turnorburn]

Say Timothy, can i ask where you heard this the first time you heard it..

Thanks..

tob

 

[TimothyW]

Say Timothy, can i ask where you heard this the first time you heard it..

Thanks..

tob

Glen Moyer suggested that there might not be a hell. That's when I started investigating. Do you believe in eternal conscious torment? Can I also ask you where you first heard of it?

 

[jeff77]

http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-there-an-eternal-conscious-hell/

After doing some researching I found a website called pleaseconvinceme.com. The link above is an article that goes in depth about ect and non-ect. TimothyW and Chessman have made some very good points but this article I believe makes some very good ones as well.

 

[TimothyW]

When a website claims that annihilationists don't believe in eternal conscious torment because they want a "kinder" God or whatever, I know that they haven't done their homework.

Check out rethinkinghell.com
It is from the Conditionalist (annihilation) POV but it is very respectful of the traditional POV. Respectful, but respectfully disagrees.

 

[turnorburn]

The first time i heard about eternal punishment i was reading my bible and got to the part where Jesus talked about it, it wasn't anything man said thought or theorized..

tob

 

[TimothyW]

The first time i heard about eternal punishment i was reading my bible and got to the part where Jesus talked about it, it wasn't anything man said thought or theorized..

tob

Nice. I was going to say a similar thing in reply to your question but I decided to be upfront. So you were reading the Bible and read where Jesus said "the way is wide that leads to destruction" and you thought "so that means eternal conscious torment"? I'm trying to picture this. Jesus says "fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell" and you thought "this proves that the soul exists forever in hell being tormented"? I just don't believe it happened that way. It's easy to go along with the crowd.

 

[jeff77]

When a website claims that annihilationists don't believe in eternal conscious torment because they want a "kinder" God or whatever, I know that they haven't done their homework.

Check out rethinking hell.com
It is from the Conditionalist (annihilation) POV but it is very respectful of the traditional POV. Respectful, but respectfully disagrees.

That was part of it, but it also gave an interpretation to many of the verses that have been discussed here too. I will check out hell.com

 

[TimothyW]

Say Timothy, can i ask where you heard this the first time you heard it..

Thanks..

tob

I was reading John 3:16 and decided to believe what it said.

 

[TimothyW]

That was part of it, but it also gave an interpretation to many of the verses that have been discussed here too. I will check out hell.com

I'm sorry for the typo in my earlier post. The website is rethinkinghell. com

 

[turnorburn]

Timothy said

Glen Moyer suggested that there might not be a hell.

and you believed him, therein lies the problem, the devil used this person to pose the question the same question he asked Eve "Hath God said" Jesus said this about the eternal.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

tob

 

[TimothyW]

Timothy said and you believed him, therein lies the problem, the devil used this person to pose the question the same question he asked Eve "Hath God said" Jesus said this about the eternal.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

tob

No. You asked where I First Heard. I did Not believe Glen and my belief now is not the same as his. Way to jump to the wrong conclusion. Glen Moyer (Cloth man) is the first I heard that there might not be ect but then AS I SAID, I investigated it and now I believe what the Bible says "the wages of sin is death".

 

[reba]

This silly bantering is going to stop... Moderator.....

The snide remarks bordering on challenging one another's Christiananty ....

Please take the time to re-read the ToS it is only a page. http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?pages/terms-of-service/

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[TimothyW]

I agree.

 

[reba]

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


A couple passages... Which of the passages are the Word of God? All correct? The blue ones read like hell is lasting torment the green ones read like hell is death... One belief is not less Christian/Biblical the the other.

This site is moderated by the ToS .... We are open to different views of Scripture that fit with in the this frame work, SoF...http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?pages/statement-of-faith/

 

[turnorburn]

I didn't say that Timothy why don't you read it again..

tob