Eternal life being tormented in Hell or Death, What is the wages of sin?

[Free]

The problem is that there are passages which seem to strongly suggest eternal punishment in hell and there are passages which seem to strongly suggest annihilation. It becomes very difficult to put together a view which takes all into account. And in light of that, and because this is not a salvific issue, people need to quit being so dogmatic, especially to the point of insults.

 

[chessman]

A couple passages... Which of the passages are the Word of God? All correct? The blue ones read like hell is lasting torment the green ones read like hell is death... One belief is not less Christian/Biblical than the other.

Reba, I’ve enjoyed reading all of your posts and inputs over the last several months that I’ve been a member here. I appreciate this one as well. I know you only by your posts and I love your posts and I know you to be Christian and therefore, I love you.

I also know you to be highly intelligent, so i suspect you pretty much know what’s coming next, right? So here it is:

Are you really saying that believing Scripture says ECT=yes or believing Scripture says ECT=no are both equally Biblically true beliefs?

I disagree with you if that's what you are saying.

"Which of the passages are the Word of God? " Both!
"All correct?" Yes!

The blue ones read like hell is lasting torment
The green ones read like hell is death
One belief is not less Christian/Biblical than the other. I disagree strongly!

It seems to me, that’s the whole point of even having an A&T section open for debating differing beliefs. What's the more or the less
evidenced belief to hold as true seems to be the whole point of participating in the discussion (or shoud be).

I posted yesterday a little post (yes I’m capable of small posts) where I tried to make the point that “debate” is NOT a dirty little word. I think the point might have been missed, however.

Debate about different beliefs concerning Scriptures is actually a quite prevalent Biblical method for discerning the truths within Scripture. Actually, other than a personal revelation from God, I suppose, it’s the ONLY method I know of for determining what’s really a true belief and what’s not truth. All truth is God’s truth. If something is true, then it’s of God. That’s why I even participate here and have the same assumption of most others that do as well. I get the impression from the number of posts (the stats compared to other sections) that A&T is quite popular here for this very reason. Plus, the hard fact, that yes people like to “argue”. I do use “argue” as a dirty little word. But my point is really debate and seeking the truth about any particular belief system is a good thing.

Job even debated with God, and came out of the discussion a much better person for it in the end, I think. I used the examples of Paul and Barnabas debating with others about a “question/belief” (Acts 15) and Paul’s general method of debating with communities and their beliefs (Acts 17). Some beliefs are correct (biblically speaking) and some are just flat out incorrect. And yes some, I suppose, are difficult and maybe even unanswerable (just read Job).

But my point is, shouldn’t we be seeking out what is knowable, correct and true? Cause if it is true, then it’s God’s truth! If I’m currently holding an untrue belief about Scripture XXX (astonishing that’s possible ), I really want it corrected.
If CFNet can help me with that (and I think it can), I’m all in.

“One belief is not less Biblical than the other.” Again, I’m talking in general terms (not so much the specific topic, ECT, which is why I took out “Christian” from your and/or statement above. I don’t nor have I seen the ECT=no side here in this thread say anything bad (like you are not a Christian) towards those others that disagree with us on what Scriptures to color Blue (if any) and what to color Green (if any).

But I will point out that there have been some posted accusations from the Blue side!​

Ever heard the saying by an evangelists (of any particular cult) “All you need is Jesus”?
Which is true, but the problem with this is, What Jesus? If this evangelist is saying passage XXX tells me Jesus is/was Satan’s brother. Then we’re in trouble.

Anyway, to get back to the specific ECT=yes/no topic and point/question (Are you literally saying that believing Scripture says ECT=yes or believing Scripture says ECT=no are both equally Biblically true?)

Though I certainly agree with you (always have and never posted otherwise) that no matter how you answer this question (ECT=no/yes), the answer does NOT determine if you are “Christian” or not.

I mean really, we are rather simply “debating” the fate of lost people (not saved people). It’s odd that the subject of one’s salvation would even come up in the discussion. It’s plainly off topic. But it does come up (mostly from the BLUE side).

So I do Strongly agree with:One belief [ECT = yes or ECT =no] is not less Christian/Biblical than the other.

 

[chessman]

The problem is that there are passages which seem to strongly suggest eternal punishment in hell and there are passages which seem to strongly suggest annihilation. It becomes very difficult to put together a view which takes all into account. And in light of that, and because this is not a salvific issue, people need to quit being so dogmatic, especially to the point of insults.

I agree. And I'll agree to not insult anyone or even bring up the subject (or even allude to it) of another's salvation one way or the other while on this topic. It's plainly off topic to begin with, not to mention rude to do so.

 

[TimothyW]

I agree. And I'll agree to not insult anyone or even bring up the subject (or even allude to it) of another's salvation one way or the other while on this topic. It's plainly off topic to begin with, not to mention rude to do so.

I agree to that as well. I don't think I've insulted anyone or questioned their salvation. I have strenuously objected when posters have said things like "your doctrine comes from the devil".

I didn't say that Timothy why don't you read it again..

tob

Yes, you did say that.

you believed him, therein lies the problem, the devil used this person to pose the question the same question he asked Eve "Hath God said"

(Edit by StoveBolts)

 

[chessman]

Timothy said and you believed him, therein lies the problem, the devil used this person to pose the question the same question he asked Eve "Hath God said" Jesus said this about the eternal.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
tob

Out of respect to the OP’s rather specific topic of discussion toward ECT “What is the wages of sin?”, I’ve not really brought into the overall ECT=yes/no? discussion any other points of Scripture that teaches ECT=no than the one's he's posted. But since you have, here’s a whole other theme within Scripture that’s rather convincing to me that shows ECT=no. Jeff777 asked a while back “What changed your mind”:

what made you change your mind?

I started to say “Scripture”, then thought the better of it and prepared a more detailed response. Casue I think he was looking for something a little more substantial than that. It got to be about four/five pages long, so then I thought the better of even posting any response at all within someone else's thread. But here’s one theme introduced from the evidence in Scripture that has sort of “changed my mind”, since you've touched on it.

I might open another thread for it (or not):

You mentioned what Satan has said. The problem is (as I see it) you …’d that last part of what Satan has said. What did He really actually say?

Genesis 3:3-4 (ESV) Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. …… 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die”.​

Yet what did God say?

Gen 2:16 (ESV) And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”​

Satan says no death. God says death. Think about it! It's deep, difficult and rather time consuming. But worth considering, right?

 

[stovebolts]

All right everyone,

I see this whole discussion going south rather quickly and the personal attacks are going to end now.

The personal attacks and bantering will stop. Infractions have already been assigned to those willfully disobeying the Terms of Service multiple times. I've also cleaned up several posts.

For those that have received infractions, I suggest you take them very seriously because the next step is to have your account banned. I want that to be crystal clear on this matter so nobody can say they weren't warned. I will also be sending out PM's to those in violations with Rick and the Moderators of this forum included in that conversation so there won't be any confusion on the matter.

Listen guys, I know this topic can get a little heated, but lets all practice a little old fashioned Christian charity and exhibit some fruits of the Spirit, and not feed the flesh.

Grace and Peace.

 

[WIP]

Death: the end of life. The state of being dead. The opposite of life.
Die: to stop living.
Dead: no longer alive, not alive, deprived of life.

I'm just using the regular English definitions for these words. (Edited by StoveBolts)

I don't think of this as a debate, more like a Bible study.(Edited by StoveBolts)

Oh, bummer. I was hoping for your definition as it applies to this thread.

Based on what you have said throughout this discussion, am I correct to say that these are accurate statements as you would define them?
Death: Cease to exist in body and spirit.
Die: The very moment one transitions from being alive to being dead.
Dead: No longer exists in body and spirit.

 

[reba]

Reba, I’ve enjoyed reading all of your posts and inputs over the last several months that I’ve been a member here. I appreciate this one as well. I know you only by your posts and I love your posts and I know you to be Christian and therefore, I love you.

I also know you to be highly intelligent, so i suspect you pretty much know what’s coming next, right? So here it is:

Are you really saying that believing Scripture says ECT=yes or believing Scripture says ECT=no are both equally Biblically true beliefs?

I disagree with you if that's what you are saying.

"Which of the passages are the Word of God? " Both!
"All correct?" Yes!

The blue ones read like hell is lasting torment
The green ones read like hell is death
One belief is not less Christian/Biblical than the other. I disagree strongly!

It seems to me, that’s the whole point of even having an A&T section open for debating differing beliefs. What's the more or the less
evidenced belief to hold as true seems to be the whole point of participating in the discussion (or shoud be).

I posted yesterday a little post (yes I’m capable of small posts) where I tried to make the point that “debate” is NOT a dirty little word. I think the point might have been missed, however.

Debate about different beliefs concerning Scriptures is actually a quite prevalent Biblical method for discerning the truths within Scripture. Actually, other than a personal revelation from God, I suppose, it’s the ONLY method I know of for determining what’s really a true belief and what’s not truth. All truth is God’s truth. If something is true, then it’s of God. That’s why I even participate here and have the same assumption of most others that do as well. I get the impression from the number of posts (the stats compared to other sections) that A&T is quite popular here for this very reason. Plus, the hard fact, that yes people like to “argue”. I do use “argue” as a dirty little word. But my point is really debate and seeking the truth about any particular belief system is a good thing.

Job even debated with God, and came out of the discussion a much better person for it in the end, I think. I used the examples of Paul and Barnabas debating with others about a “question/belief” (Acts 15) and Paul’s general method of debating with communities and their beliefs (Acts 17). Some beliefs are correct (biblically speaking) and some are just flat out incorrect. And yes some, I suppose, are difficult and maybe even unanswerable (just read Job).

But my point is, shouldn’t we be seeking out what is knowable, correct and true? Cause if it is true, then it’s God’s truth! If I’m currently holding an untrue belief about Scripture XXX (astonishing that’s possible ), I really want it corrected.
If CFNet can help me with that (and I think it can), I’m all in.

“One belief is not less Biblical than the other.” Again, I’m talking in general terms (not so much the specific topic, ECT, which is why I took out “Christian” from your and/or statement above. I don’t nor have I seen the ECT=no side here in this thread say anything bad (like you are not a Christian) towards those others that disagree with us on what Scriptures to color Blue (if any) and what to color Green (if any).

But I will point out that there have been some posted accusations from the Blue side!​

Ever heard the saying by an evangelists (of any particular cult) “All you need is Jesus”?
Which is true, but the problem with this is, What Jesus? If this evangelist is saying passage XXX tells me Jesus is/was Satan’s brother. Then we’re in trouble.

Anyway, to get back to the specific ECT=yes/no topic and point/question (Are you literally saying that believing Scripture says ECT=yes or believing Scripture says ECT=no are both equally Biblically true?)

Though I certainly agree with you (always have and never posted otherwise) that no matter how you answer this question (ECT=no/yes), the answer does NOT determine if you are “Christian” or not.

I mean really, we are rather simply “debating” the fate of lost people (not saved people). It’s odd that the subject of one’s salvation would even come up in the discussion. It’s plainly off topic. But it does come up (mostly from the BLUE side).

So I do Strongly agree with:One belief [ECT = yes or ECT =no] is not less Christian/Biblical than the other.

Simplely put some passages of scripture can/are read differently by different folks who love the Lord.... One example is baptism. Another is Grace .. Not going any deeper on either of those ... I would ask of all here do you believe exactly the same things you did when you fist met Jesus? Or have you grown? That is the guts of my posts... On some subjects i have strong personal thoughts some i dont .


ADDED:
Some how half this reply is not here.... so i'll try again...

It seems to me, that’s the whole point of even having an A&T section open for debating differing beliefs. What's the more or the less
evidenced belief to hold as true seems to be the whole point of participating in the discussion (or shoud be).

Absolutely agree.... While remembering some of us are babes some are of the hoary head.... Some folks are guests 'watching' Christians. It would be great if we members here( and Christians in general) would treat each other like a part of the same body...like when you stub your right toe and hop around on your left foot for comfort.

Thank you for the kind words...

 

[turnorburn]

chessman said:

Satan says no death. God says death. Think about it! It's deep, difficult and rather time consuming. But worth considering, right?

No that's not right, anything the devil says is not worth considering..

tob

 

[chessman]

No that's not right, anything the devil says is not worth considering..

tob

If it's not right to consider Satan's lie, why do you think God inspired for Satan's words to be recorded in the Bible?

 

[chessman]

Some folks are guests 'watching' Christians. It would be great if we members here( and Christians in general) would treat each other like a part of the same body...like when you stub your right toe and hop around on your left foot for comfort.

I love God. I love studying God's Word. It's loving His pesky little creatures that I struggle with at times. Still maturing.

 

[TimothyW]

Oh, bummer. I was hoping for your definition as it applies to this thread.

Based on what you have said throughout this discussion, am I correct to say that these are accurate statements as you would define them?
Death: Cease to exist in body and spirit.
Die: The very moment one transitions from being alive to being dead.
Dead: No longer exists in body and spirit.

With all due respect, the definitions I gave are the definitions I believe are true.

 

[turnorburn]

chessman said:

If it's not right to consider Satan's lie, why do you think God inspired for Satan's words to be recorded in the Bible?

#1 because Satan is Gods enemy, #2 and as a warning, as you can see by reading these threads the devil has people questioning his every word..

tob

 

[TimothyW]

Every word of God is flawless, Proverbs 30:5

chessman said:

#1 because Satan is Gods enemy, #2 and as a warning, as you can see by reading these threads the devil has people questioning his every word..

tob

Every word of God is flawless, Proverbs 30:5

 

[westtexas]

Check out rethinkinghell.com

Timothy, I just read the article "Strange Fire: Distorting a Biblical Symbol" from your website. The second sentence in this article reads "Scripture teaches us that short of miraculous intervention, (the burning bush, Shadrach and his friends), a fire that remains unquenched will consume that which it burns." The last 2 paragraphs in this article discuss Mark 9:48 " Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" and says that Traditionalists are "extrapolating wildly" to suggest that the unrighteous are not consumed in this fire. Scripture in this verse says the fire is not quenched. Would you not agree that if our Lord can save through fire (Shadrach and his friends) then he can also judge through fire eternally (miraculous intervention-as your website calls it) should he so desire? I believe His Word says yes. Thoughts? I also believe that this website says I am "extrapolating wildly" simply because they cannot fit these verses into their neat little box. Thoughts?

 

[TimothyW]

Timothy, I just read the article "Strange Fire: Distorting a Biblical Symbol" from your website. The second sentence in this article reads "Scripture teaches us that short of miraculous intervention, (the burning bush, Shadrach and his friends), a fire that remains unquenched will consume that which it burns." The last 2 paragraphs in this article discuss Mark 9:48 " Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" and says that Traditionalists are "extrapolating wildly" to suggest that the unrighteous are not consumed in this fire. Scripture in this verse says the fire is not quenched. Would you not agree that if our Lord can save through fire (Shadrach and his friends) then he can also judge through fire eternally (miraculous intervention-as your website calls it) should he so desire? I believe His Word says yes. Thoughts? I also believe that this website says I am "extrapolating wildly" simply because they cannot fit these verses into their neat little box. Thoughts?

My thought is that while scripture specifically says that Shadrach and his friends were protected from the fire, scripture also specifically says that the wicked are consumed by the fire. I am confident that God could preserve the wicked in fire, but that is not what scripture says that God does.

Did you leave a comment on the article on their website? The author would be better at responding to this than me.

 

[westtexas]

scripture also specifically says that the wicked are consumed by the fire.

Did you leave a comment on the article on their website? The author would be better at responding to this than me.

Does this comment take us back to your comment that W.E.Vines definition of apollumi was biased due to his belief in eternal punishment? (These may not be your exact words-I'm simply going off memory-but the concept I believe is correct). Can you point me to a dictionary and a linguist you prefer?
And I didn't realize that I could comment on the article. I'll go back to it. I'm curious to see what the author has to say. Thanks

 

[Rick W]

Could be God's judgment IS the unquenchable fire for who can annul His judgments?

 

[jeff77]

Hi TimothyW. I decided to look at the rethinkinghell website tonight and after skimming through a few articles I noticed there is a debate between Phil Fernandez and Chris Date that is available on audio. It is pretty long (over 2 hours) I think and so far I have listened to Chris Date's opening argument and Phil's opening argument and part of Chris Date's 1st rebutal. I think it is important to note that these 2 guys are very respectful to one another and both of them say that they don't doubt that the other loves the Lord. Also something I believe is important is that they are both educated in a Seminary if Im not wrong.

So far I can say that these 2 very intelligent men (and they both acknowlegde that about each other) are debating some of the same verses that are being presented on this thread. They also both disagree about the meaning of words like death, eternal life and others. I will have to listen to the rest of it this weekend before I could summarize what I think is the best argument but as I was listening one thing came to my mind.

Chris says that the view of ECT drives people away from Christianity and I believe that it does. On the other hand Phil says that the reason many get saved is because of the view of ECT including himself. Chris says that some would not come to Christ if someone had not shown them a biblical case for non-ECT. I agree with them that either of these 2 views may bring people to Christ. However only 1 can be true but never the less we will probably always have people teach both views. I think God can take things that are wrong and turn them around for his good. For example I believe that even though non-ECT is wrong, it could lead someone to the Lord and then from there if they learn more and embrace the rest of the most important Biblical doctrines as truth then that is a good thing. Remember pretty much all of us have agreed that we don't discredit each others being saved or not saved based on ECT or non-ECT.

I will listen to the rest of the audio debate. Thanks for pointing out the website it is very helpful. I hope what I just wrote makes sense cause it was a little difficult to get it down.

 

[Sparkey]

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