When you die the first death, if you are not saved, where do you go?
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Eternal life being tormented in Hell or Death, What is the wages of sin?
- Thread starter TimothyW
- Start date
When you die the first death, if you are not saved, where do you go?
TimothyW
Member
What does the Bible say?
Where does anyone go when they die? When my Dad died, we put his casket in the back of my brother's pickup truck and took him to South Dakota so we could bury him next to Mom.
But when Jesus returns, Mom and Dad and all of the rest of us will come out of our graves and we will be alive again.
John 5:24-28
24“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
TimothyW
Member
What do you think? Do you think that the unsaved dead remain alive and go to Hell where they are tortured alive forever while they are dead?
Are they then resurrected to life again for judgment when Jesus returns? If they are judged when Jesus returns, why are they tortured before Jesus returns? And if they are alive while they are dead, why would they need to be resurrected to life? And if they are tortured before they are judged (which in itself is unjust, a person should not be tortured without a trial) what happens AFTER they are judged? Are they then sent BACK to Hell for a second round of eternal torture? And where does the Bible say any of this? Let's not be forgetting what the Bible says, "For the wages of sin is DEATH". All your talk can't change what the Bible says.
Are they then resurrected to life again for judgment when Jesus returns? If they are judged when Jesus returns, why are they tortured before Jesus returns? And if they are alive while they are dead, why would they need to be resurrected to life? And if they are tortured before they are judged (which in itself is unjust, a person should not be tortured without a trial) what happens AFTER they are judged? Are they then sent BACK to Hell for a second round of eternal torture? And where does the Bible say any of this? Let's not be forgetting what the Bible says, "For the wages of sin is DEATH". All your talk can't change what the Bible says.
Condemned to hell and the lake of fire.
It is their body that died and is raised.
35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain--perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:35-43
The spirit of a man goes to be with the Lord when it leaves the body.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. If you are saved.
If you are not saved...
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! Luke 12:5
after you have been killed... you are cast into hell!
JLB
TimothyW
Member
None of that says that anyone will be tortured in Hell forever while they are dead. They are condemned to death, to be destroyed, to perish just as the Bible clearly states over and over again.
And Matthew 10:28 expands on Luke 12:5, telling what happens in Hell (Gehenna)
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Gehenna) NIV
So that explains WHY a person should fear the one who has power to cast into Hell, The body and soul will be destroyed in Hell.
Why don't you accept the fact that there isn't any verse in the entire Bible that backs up your doctrine? Why hang onto a doctrine that has no support in the Bible?
If you simply show me the verse that says "The wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever", I would accept it.
I've shown you the verses that prove that the wicked perish (Psalm 37:20), The wicked will be no more (Psalm 37:10), They will perish (John 3:16 and Luke 13:3), They will be destroyed, both body and soul (Matthew 10:28, Matthew 7:13), the penalty is destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), the soul who sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:4) and the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23).
If you showed me even one verse that backs up your doctrine, I would accept it. I've shown you over 50 Bible passages that say EXACTLY the same thing I am saying, but you still reject the truth. Why?
J
JCitoL
Guest
the purpose of the faith is that the afflictions of the people/souls be shortened to the maximum so that all human/ensouled beings be provided with abundant and everlasting life as soon as possible, otherwise there would be no faith, but just some inevitable destiny, that is why it is written:
1 Timothy 2:1-10 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications(also: solicitations), prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks(i.e. blessings), be made for all men(i.e. for all humans); For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty(i.e. in all goodness and earnestness). For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men(i.e. all humans/souls) to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth(i.e. and to become good/righteous). For there is one God, and one mediator(also: and one Lord) between God and men, the man(i.e. the ensouled being) Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men(i.e. that the male believers) pray every where, lifting up holy hands(i.e. entirely showing/manifesting love/goodness), without wrath(i.e. without hostility/aggression) and doubting(i.e. and dramatization/stir/intrigues/strife). In like manner also, that women(i.e. that female believers) adorn themselves in modest apparel(i.e. in humility), with shamefacedness(i.e. with meekness) and sobriety(i.e. and sedation/sanity); not with broided hair(i.e. not with pride/embroilment), or gold(i.e. or vainglory), or pearls(i.e. or (inordinate) wisdom), or costly array(i.e. or (self-interested) elevation); But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.",
Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake(i.e. but because of the overall love and (the) all-merciful intercessions of the true Saints) those days shall be shortened."
with regard to the punishment, the soul (no matter which) cannot be absolutely/totally destroyed - all souls are timelessly present in the universe without there being a beginning and an end of their presence therein
Blessings
chessman
Member
Of course we have Scriptures that speak of our souls surviving the 1st death and even being resurrected bodily later. Not to mention the empirical evidence of Jesus’ resurrection. No problem, there.
As for what’s left after the ‘2nd death’, sure, theoretically it’s entirely possible that God could (and will) do whatever His Justice is for the resurrected Body/Soul combo if the lost in Hell. If the Bible taught Eternal Concise Torment (ECT) in Hell of the body, the soul or both, I’d have zero problem believing it. A Body/Soul could survive a “2nd death” theoretically (like the first evidently will), if that is God’s will and His just punishment for the lost. But is it, is the question. And where’s it taught in Scripture, specifically? I cannot find it! And there’s lots of evidence against it such as:
1. Jesus’ message to us: Matthew 10:28 (ESV) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Rather obviously Jesus is referencing God’s final judgment/punishment and even relating that to our ‘1st death’.
2. “Eternal Life” is a gift ONLY to the saved; (1 Tim 6:15-16, Gen 2:17, Prov 12:28, Rom 2:7, 2 Tim 1:10, 1 Cor 15, John 3:16, John 10:28, Rom 6:23)
The idea that human creatures somehow are in fact ‘destruction proof’ (even to God’s wrath), is unbiblical. I do fear Him that can destroy both soul and body in Hell.
3. What’s up with Jesus not being eternally, consciously tormented in Hell, if that’s the just penalty for the unsaved that He bore on mankind’s behalf?
I’m actually still open to the idea of ECT given any good Biblical evidence for it. It’s one of the reasons I even spend time here on CFNet. That is, evaluating the best evidence for ECT and against annihilationism. I said “I cannot find it (ECT taught Biblically)” and I’ve given it a fair chance for years to be found/taught (even in this Thread) because we have no Scripture that I’m aware of that speaks of any part of the lost (soul or physical or both) actually surviving after the 2nd death. Seems to me, that 2nd death is pretty much it for the lost, whatever the 2nd death is.
Revelation 21:6 (ESV) And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Saved get life. Unsaved get the second death. Plain and simple, really.
Of course the Bible does say (speaking about John’s visions previous to the end of the story and the final punishment); that “the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Rev 14:11). So maybe I am oversimplifying this topic. MAYBE. So evaluating the best evidence against a 2nd death being, … well death similar in fashion to the 1st:
Take Rev 14:11, for example, which has been mentioned as one of the ‘best evidences’ (top three) against annihilationism. Technically, that’s probably true. It is among the ‘best evidences’ biblically speaking. Problem is, it’s not very good evidence at all, when you really study it. How it ever makes the top 100, much less the top three, is beyond me to understand. Except for there’s not even 25 passages to study that remotely resemble ECT, much less 100.
I find it odd (i.e. not very convincing) that one of the ‘best passages’ people point to does not refute annihilationism in the slightest since:
1) it specifically says it’s the “smoke” that ascends forever and ever (versus the actual lost living forever and ever).
2) that particular passage is not even speaking about the time frame of the final punishment/judgment in the first place (it’s about destruction/punishment on Earth prior to the Harvest of the Earth, not at or after the Final Judgment. It’s rather lazy exegesis to even mention it in the same conversation about post final judgment events. It’s not the proper timeframe to begin with.
3) it’s John’s vision being described and using his highly symbolic images within the vision itself (versus just straight outright Bible teaching like what’s in Matt 10:28)
4) we know what the Bible means when it uses the symbolism of “smoke rising forever” take Rev 19:1-3 for example since it’s right there in the same book/author, though many other similar passages could be used:
After this [the Fall of Babylon (i.e. the Great Prostitute) on Earth prior to the Final Judgment]
I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out,
“Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
2 for his judgments are true and just;
for he has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality,
and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”
3 Once more they cried out,
“Hallelujah!
The smoke from her goes up forever and ever.”
Note what happened to the “her” in the vision of the future; “So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more”
Another passage that’s been mentioned as ‘best evidence’ for ECT is Mark 9:42-48 because it says “Their worm does not die” and “the fire is not quenched”. Great. But again, if that’s the best evidence, it’s extremely lacking. Here’s why:
1. We’re not talking about worms “dying” we’re talking about actual people. So what if a worm does not die, even if you want to take this passage literally. But note how people stretch the fact that the text says “their worm does not die” into the “_[lost]__does not die”. Either take it literally or metaphorically, but either way, it doesn’t say people do not die.
2. Why would, if Jesus meant to say the people do not die in Hell, doesn’t He just come right out say the lost do not die (either here or elsewhere), rather than even mentioning their worms? I know why:
a. Because He just got through saying “ 43 It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell”. Jesus is clearly contrasting “life” (i.e. entering afterlife in heaven) with death. That’s what maggots do. They eat dead flesh and his hearers knew exactly what He meant.
b. Because He truly knows that the wages of sin is death (not being tormented by being eaten by maggots for eternity).
b. Because He truly knows that the wages of sin is death (not being tormented by being eaten by maggots for eternity).
3. Life is better than death, which is his point of the whole passage (and creation for that matter).
4. Note it says to “enter life”. What’s the only real alternative to “enter life”? To not enter life of course, not enter a painful life. “It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell”.
It’s consistent with His “Two Gates” teaching. One you “enter life”, the other you “go to Hell”. It’s not contrasting 1) you “enter life” and 2) the other you “enter an unpleasant life”. But that’s what people read into this text, for some reason.
Matthew 7:13-14 (ESV) “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.” For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
And His brother’s:
Jude 1:21 (ESV) keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life … save others by snatching them out of the fire.
What is “the fire”? Jude says: until the judgment of the great day— 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
To Jude, “punishment of eternal fire” = exampled by judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah (destruction) not eternal torment.
Note again how it’s the fire itself that’s eternal, not the punishment. It’s not eternal punishing, but rather eternal fire! i.e. God’s fire.
One thought that came to mind as I have been watching this discussion is, what does it really matter whether one is destroyed or spends an eternity in torment? Isn't it enough that we understand the ramifications of being eternally separated from God? As weird as this sounds, it seems as though we are trying desperately to lessen or lighten the consequences of not surrendering ourselves to the One who saves. 
TimothyW
Member
It matters a lot because of what it says about the nature of God. Is God a God who set up a place of eternal torment? Or is God a God who rescues us from the inherent consequences of our sin?One thought that came to mind as I have been watching this discussion is, what does it really matter whether one is destroyed or spends an eternity in torment? Isn't it enough that we understand the ramifications of being eternally separated from God? As weird as this sounds, it seems as though we are trying desperately to lessen or lighten the consequences of not surrendering ourselves to the One who saves.
In any matter, destruction doesn't lessen the consequences at all. Does the doctrine of eternal torment lessen the consequences of sin by claiming that a person can sin and not be destroyed? (who was it that said of sin, "Surely you will NOT die?) Whether the wages of sin is death or eternal conscious torment, a person should surrender themselves to God. But isn't it vitally (literally!) important to understand what the scriptures say? If the scriptures said "For the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in H.E. Double Hockey-sticks, but the gift of God is that a person in Christ can escape the torture", Then I would believe that completely. So, shouldn't a person (such as Mr JLB) believe the Bible when it says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"?
chessman
Member
it seems as though we are trying desperately to lessen or lighten the consequences of not surrendering ourselves to the One who saves.
Amen. It doesn’t seem appropriate to hide or lessen the consequences of sins against God does it.
Through God’s legal system set up on Earth, we’ve always seen that the level of the crime fit the punishment with the death penalty (Capital Punishment) reserved for the most serious.
Lev 24: 17 “Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death. 18 Whoever takes an animal's life shall make it good, life for life. 19 If anyone injures his neighbor, as he has done it shall be done to him, 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; whatever injury he has given a person shall be given to him.
Ezra 7:26 Whoever will not obey the law of your God and the law of the king, let judgment be strictly executed on him, whether for death or for banishment or for confiscation of his goods or for imprisonment.”
Ezra 7:26 Whoever will not obey the law of your God and the law of the king, let judgment be strictly executed on him, whether for death or for banishment or for confiscation of his goods or for imprisonment.”
Not sure why people feel there is no Capital Punishment that awaits the unsaved, or that it's any less fearful:
Matthew 10:28 (ESV)And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Hebrews 10:27 (ESV) but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. … 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Revelation 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer[tribulation]. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Hebrews 10:27 (ESV) but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. … 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Revelation 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer[tribulation]. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
TimothyW
Member
For the wages of sin is an eternal timeout. No...that's not it...What is the wages of sin?
Anyone?
Anyone?
Agreeing with what the Bible says is the wages of sin is not "trying desperately to lessen or lighten the consequences" of sin.
I think that we, as Christians, should agree with what the Bible says.
People think I'm weird for believing that.
Anyone?
Anyone?
Agreeing with what the Bible says is the wages of sin is not "trying desperately to lessen or lighten the consequences" of sin.
I think that we, as Christians, should agree with what the Bible says.
People think I'm weird for believing that.
jeff77
Member
Did anyone mention these verses yet?
• And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:2 ESV)
• And [the wicked] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matthew 25:46 ESV)
• And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:2 ESV)
• And [the wicked] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matthew 25:46 ESV)
TimothyW
Member
For which side?
chessman
Member
Contempt for the dead (as in God destroying both their body and soul) like contempt for Hitler can surely be everlasting. And the alternate would be what? God changing His contempt for the unsaved in the distant future, back to patience and a third chance or something?
Also, the word for contempt here is only used elsewhere in Is 66:24 where it's clear the contempt is held not by the dead, but by God. Which only makes sense, when you really think about it. Who is the Everlasting?
Go check it out. Also, what is the alternative to everlasting life? Death, of course. Both passages are a clear contrast. The contempt being everlasting does not negate the fact that only to the saved is everlasting life given (John 3;16). A life of torture is still a life. So it just doesn't make sense that eternal life also be given to the unsaved. He ends His sustainment/patience held patiently for many centuries, and issues what toward them in it's place? Contempt! Everlasting. God further giving life to the un-saved(even if it were painful) is not a final act of contempt, is it? It's also not the full cup of Wrath. A Death sentence is, however.
There's a reason that the English translation of the Greek for the Matt passage says punishment versus punishing. The form in the Greek requires it. The punishment is what's eternal. A 2nd death sentence is eternal.
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He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.Revelation 14:10
How long does this scripture indicate the torment to last.
JLB
chessman
Member
turnorburn
Member
I've always seen things thus, your born you die your rewarded or your punished, after becoming a Christian you get to know Gods character his attributes. God is a righteous judge, an eternal judge, when he makes a decision its eternal, if a person isn't living in the eternal its impossible to understand how that works. Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again in able to see the kingdom of God. Concerning punishment its eternally final concerning rewards its eternally final, for scripture go here..
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
tob
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
tob
It doesn't say?
... He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Is the smoke associated with the torment? Yes
The smoke is a result of the torment.
Smoke arises from something.
When you burn something, it produces smoke.
Something that has completely and totally burned up, does not produce smoke.
The smoke is the indicator that something is in the process of burning.
The smoke "of their torment" is the proof that the torment is in fact taking place.
JLB
chessman
Member
Luke 17:29 (NIV)29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
Is 34:8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
...
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.
Is Edom still smoking literally? No. It's smoke of destruction rising is a figure of speech.
2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Revelation 11:8
Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt.
Is 34:8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
...
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.
Is Edom still smoking literally? No. It's smoke of destruction rising is a figure of speech.
2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Revelation 11:8
Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt.
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Please answer my question from the scripture I posted.
Please don't try to distract from the scripture that I posted.
If you have scriptures about the lake of fire, please post them.
We are discussing the lake of fire.
The smoke is a result of the torment.
Smoke arises from something.
When you burn something, it produces smoke.
Something that has completely and totally burned up, does not produce smoke.
The smoke is the indicator that something is in the process of burning.
The smoke "of their torment" is the proof that the torment is in fact taking place.
The people are cast into the lake of fire.
How long does the torment last?
JLB