Eternal Life

[netchaplain]

I would say, however, that we do enter into eternal life at the time we believe but it does not become a permanent condition until the resurrection. John 3:16 says that whoever believes "has" (currently possesses) eternal life but it does not say that his condition is permanent.

Thanks for the compliment! I've wondered why Scripture is often obscure in the manner God teaches us, and the many passages which appear to conflict in seemingly contradiction, but presently I've come to understand that everything God does is to increase in those who are His the bond of love towards one another, seeing this is the greatest expression of our application concerning our love towards Him (1John 4:20). Thus the more we apply ourselves in tending to that which promotes neighborly love, the more His Spirit will teach us, because this is the primary purpose Scripture and all of our works in God (John 15:12).

There's one certainty I've discovered, the more Christians I share with in the Word the more I learn and my suspicion is because each are given certain views on certain issues that all could use for understanding the generality of an issue.

Back to my reply, it was my intention of showing the permanency of salvation by showing the permanency of receiving eternal life (salvation) and more exemplary, when it is received, because as the words express, it is eternal life one receives, which means you have it now and if you have it now it's a "permanent condition" (to use your above terms only for instructional effect).

 

[netchaplain]

There are multiple statements in scripture which admonish believers to persevere and stay the course so that they do not loose the gift they have been given.

I see the admonishments, not to caution one who is born again (also a permanent condition) to remain in Christ but to serve in identifying those who were not in Christ, evinced by their separating themselves from Christianity.

In my understanding I see no possibility that one who is truly born again would ever desire to leave God, considering He "works in you the desire the desire to do His pleasure" (Phl 2:13). Therefore if one manifests a permanent departure from the desire for God, there can only be one reason--God was not in Him, for His "work" is in everyone who is born again!

It is not until we are arisen that we shall be like Him

True, concerning the new body (1John 3:2), but not concerning the present possession of eternal life (1John 4:17). If we have Jesus we have life, which means eternal life, not life that all now have (1John 5:12).

 

[ezrider]

If eternal life means an eternal relationship with God, then the absence of an eternal relationship with God means eternal death.

That is not necessarily a true statement in my mind.

Romans 14:7-9
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord:whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

 

[netchaplain]

That is not necessarily a true statement in my mind.
Romans 14:7-9
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord:whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Not sure how you're relating this with our discussion. The verses include only those who are His. Let me know what you mean.

 

[netchaplain]

Can you point out a Scripture that teaches that salvation is not permanent until after our bodies are raised from the dead?

This made me think of what I believe is a good point. Salvation is only needed in this life, because all it has to do is with faith, which will not be needed in the next life. So if you do not have salvation in this life you can't have in the next.

 

[chessman]

Those Christians who choose to present their members as slaves to sin, will receive the wages for their sinful life, which is death.

You must be reading some other book. Nothing in the verses you just cited describe Christians becoming a "slave to sin" in the future. Christians were (past tense) slaves to sin, is Paul's view:

But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin,
For when you were slaves of sin,​

In fact, quite the opposite of your claim is stated by Paul:

Romans 6:14 (LEB) For sin will not be master over you, because you are not under law, but under grace.​

Romans 6:14 (LEB) For sin will not be master over you, because you are not under law, but under grace.​

Get it??? Sin will not be master over you (Christians). I believe Paul.

 

[JLB]

You must be reading some other book. Nothing in the verses you just cited describe Christians becoming a "slave to sin" in the future. Christians were (past tense) slaves to sin, is Paul's view:

But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin,
For when you were slaves of sin,​

In fact, quite the opposite of your claim is stated by Paul:

Romans 6:14 (LEB) For sin will not be master over you, because you are not under law, but under grace.​

Romans 6:14 (LEB) For sin will not be master over you, because you are not under law, but under grace.​

Get it??? Sin will not be master over you (Christians). I believe Paul.

Another attempt at isolating a scripture from it's context.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14


We have been given the power, to keep sin from "reigning" [as a master] because we have been given the Holy Spirit [if indeed you have the Holy Spirit].

Those who exercise their God given authority to "not let sin reign" over them, and to not obey the desires of the mortal body, will live. [eternal life]

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

Each believer must choose to either allow sin to reign in their life, and become a slave to sin, which in the end leads to death.

or

Choose to put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit, and present their members as slaves to righteousness, and bear fruit unto holiness, and in the end receive eternal life.

• Live a lifestyle of sin, as a slave to sin = receive the wages for sin, which is death.
• Live a lifestyle of being led by the Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the flesh and becoming a slave of righteousness - eternal life.

Paul makes it crystal clear.

Romans 2:6-8

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.

It's your choice.

We have been given all things that pertain to [eternal] life and godliness, [living a godly lifestyle].

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:2-4

His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness...


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Interesting.

Each believer must choose to either allow sin to reign in their life, and become a slave to sin, which in the end leads to death.

• Live a lifestyle of sin, as a slave to sin = receive the wages for sin, which is death.

• 7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.Romans 3:7-9
  
  
  Paul plainly rejects the notion of being judged as a sinner.
  
  
  JLB

 

[chessman]

Another attempt at isolating a scripture from it's context.

Nope. Just pointing out that none of the Scripture you posted (then or now) says that a Christian becomes a slave to sin.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

Okay, do not let sin reign in your mortal body. A Christian should not obey it (sin). This doesn't say "Christians who choose to present their members as slaves to sin, will receive the wages for their sinful life, which is death." How do I know? Because the context of Paul's message proves that sin will NOT be master over you (you Christian):

Romans 6:14 (LEB) For sin will not be master over you, because you are not under law, but under grace. ​

That's funny, you accusing me of isolating a verse from it's context. Verse 14 IS in context.

13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

Okay, do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin. Still doesn't say that 'Christians who choose to present their members as slaves to sin, will receive the wages for their sinful life, which is death'.

Christians are already considered alive from the dead. And they should act like it. How do I know? The context tells us so:

Romans 6:11 (LEB) So also you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. ​

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

Good question. And its answer is even better:

Romans 6:17 (LEB) But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted,​

A Christian has obeyed The Righteous One.

 

[chessman]

We have been given the power, to keep sin from "reigning" [as a master] because we have been given the Holy Spirit [if indeed you have the Holy Spirit].

Yep. Not only have Christians been given Eternal Life, we have been given that very same Power (The Holy Spirit) that raised Jesus' body from the dead and will also do the same for Christians.

Romans 8:11 (LEB) And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.
​

A failure of a Christian to maintain Eternal Life, if it were to happen, would be a failure of The Holy Spirit's power to do His job.

 

[netchaplain]

The sole condition on our part is receiving salvation--"through faith" (Eph 2:8), then manifesting the faith--"by works" (Jam 2:24), which needs much clarification. "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified."

The Greek for "justify" is 'dikaioō' and basically has two meanings: to render one righteous, which only God can do (Rom 8:33; Gal 2:17); to show (manifest or display) one is righteous, which is definition II at the below link. Effecting righteousness is always attributed to God and Christ. Showing righteousness is through the believer.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1344&t=KJV

 

[ezrider]

But more importantly, it is the idea of being made "innocent" that concerns me. Where does the idea of being made innocent come from?

Interesting question! Innocent of the guilt from the "condemnation" of sin (Rom 8:1). Which means innocent of the sin nature which caused God to send His Son.

I ask these questions of innocence, or guiltlessness as it relates to the idea of eternal life. They believe if they keep casting their sins upon the cross that the blood will cleanse them again and again so they remain innocent before the law, as they wait for their promise of everlasting life. But there is doorway to everlasting last that many do not want to enter through, because they won't accept their guilt before the commandment of God and are worthy of death.

How should one expect to understand everlasting life if they can not accept their own death in Christ first?

 

[JLB]

Nope. Just pointing out that none of the Scripture you posted (then or now) says that a Christian becomes a slave to sin.

It's up to each Christian to choose, whether to become a slave to sin leading to death, or of obedience unto righteousness.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

Okay, do not let sin reign in your mortal body. A Christian should not obey it (sin). This doesn't say "Christians who choose to present their members as slaves to sin, will receive the wages for their sinful life, which is death." How do I know? Because the context of Paul's message proves that sin will NOT be master over you (you Christian):

Romans 6:14 (LEB) For sin will not be master over you, because you are not under law, but under grace.
That's funny, you accusing me of isolating a verse from it's context. Verse 14 IS in context.

We who believe, are under grace.

We must make the choice not to sin, not to present our members as a slave to sin.

Paul plainly warns them that to whom the present themselves as slaves to obey, you are that ones slave whom you obey.

Read for yourself Chessman: you are that one’s slaves whom you obey...
whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness.

Okay, do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin. Still doesn't say that 'Christians who choose to present their members as slaves to sin, will receive the wages for their sinful life, which is death'.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death... Romans 6:16

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Chessman, just read what Paul warns them and us, concerning this.

Yep. Not only have Christians been given Eternal Life, we have been given that very same Power (The Holy Spirit) that raised Jesus' body from the dead and will also do the same for Christians.

Romans 8:11 (LEB) And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.
A failure of a Christian to maintain Eternal Life, if it were to happen, would be a failure of The Holy Spirit's power to do His job.

So if you choose to present yourself as a slave to sin, it's the Holy Spirit's fault?

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh...19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16,19-21


Paul warns of this in all his letters.



JLB

 

[netchaplain]

I ask these questions of innocence, or guiltlessness as it relates to the idea of eternal life. They believe if they keep casting their sins upon the cross that the blood will cleanse them again and again so they remain innocent before the law, as they wait for their promise of everlasting life. But there is doorway to everlasting last that many do not want to enter through, because they won't accept their guilt before the commandment of God and are worthy of death.

How should one expect to understand everlasting life if they can not accept their own death in Christ first?

There's a bit of your reply that I'm not sure I understand, but concerning "they won't accept their guilt," I think this is addressed when being saved, in that God shows us to realize we are in a place of opposition to Him due to the sinful nature, and upon this realization (conviction or convincing) He also imparts the desire and understanding of the need for us to admit ("confess") that we have a sinful nature and the need for redemption from it, which provides to the believer forgiveness through the sake of Christ's atonement, thus never again needing forgiveness from condemnation but rather deliverance from the sin nature's reign.

Excuse me if this has not addressed your reply, and I also wanted to share what I believe is a helpful comment addressing my reply concerning confession of sins by the believer after being saved:

John Gill's opinion on 1 John 1:9: http://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=gill&b=62&c=1

God bless!

 

[chessman]

We who believe, are under grace.

That is correct. That's what Paul says. I happened to believe him. He also says sin will not be master over you (you Christians who are under grace). I happen to believe him. The issue is, what Paul said about Christians who are under grace contradicts what you said about these same Christians. That's my point.

Romans 6:14 (LEB) For sin will not be master over you, because you are not under law, but under grace.
​

Those Christians who choose to present their members as slaves to sin, will receive the wages for their sinful life, which is death

 

[chessman]

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death... Romans 6:16

Do you not know that Christians have obeyed God from the heart and have been set free from sin?

Rom 6:17-18 (LEB) But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted, and having been set free from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness.​

 

[JLB]

That is correct. That's what Paul says. I happened to believe him. He also says sin will not be master over you (you Christians who are under grace). I happen to believe him. The issue is, what Paul said about Christians who are under grace contradicts what you said about these same Christians. That's my point.

Romans 6:14 (LEB) For sin will not be master over you, because you are not under law, but under grace.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:14-16

...you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

We you are under grace have a choice to whom we shall obey, because we are the salve of the one we choose to obey:

Either sin, leading to death, or obedience unto righteousness.


Those who produce fruit unto holiness, will in the end receive eternal life.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23


Those who are free from sin, and have become a slave to God, bear fruit unto holiness, and in the end receive eternal life.


Do you think Paul is teaching that those who present themselves as slaves of sin, to obey sin, somehow have fruit unto holiness?

Is that what you are teaching us Chessman.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Why would you believe a person who chooses to obey sin and is a slave to sin, can still somehow bear fruit unto holiness?

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Do you not know that Christians have obeyed God from the heart and have been set free from sin?

Rom 6:17-18 (LEB) But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted, and having been set free from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness.​

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
Romans 6:15-19



JLB

 

[smaller]

But there is doorway to everlasting last that many do not want to enter through, because they won't accept their guilt before the commandment of God and are worthy of death.

How should one expect to understand everlasting life if they can not accept their own death in Christ first?

Brilliant deductions above.

There is a notion among christians that they can make themselves sinless. And if they can not, then they are either eternally dead or eternally tortured. The reality IS that we, our old selves, DIED, the moment the Spirit of Christ entered our hearts.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Trying to remedy both of these states, neither of which has factually been shown to us yet, "in full," is obviously problematic for anyone, because we "think" we are still alive rather than "dead" and simultaneously "resurrected" into the life we have, which is in fact "hid."

So, yeah, big issues arise trying to sort these conditions out.

If the Spirit of Christ is in us, the body IS dead, because of sin, and it is Christ who is "in us." Literally, the dead in Christ.


Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

There is not going to be any other determinations made for that dead body. Trying to make it sinless is not going to change the determination that has already been put upon that body, because of indwelling sin and evil present therein, Romans 7:17-21. That's WHY it's dead, and deserves to stay that way.

 

[chessman]

Do you think Paul is teaching that those who present themselves as slaves of sin, to obey sin, somehow have fruit unto holiness?

No. I do not think that.

Why would you believe a person who chooses to obey sin and is a slave to sin, can still somehow bear fruit unto holiness?

Why did you ask me a question then turn right around and answer it for me, incorrectly?

And more importantly, to my point, why did you say Christians can become "slaves to sin" when Paul says that sin will not be master over you?

Romans 6:14 (LEB) For sin will not be master over you, because you are not under law, but under grace. ​