Eternal Life

[dianegcook]

Rev.3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,but I will confess his name before My Father, and before the angels...

There is a condition..
Evidently God can blot out one's name.

Rev.21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie, but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev.22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life.....
There is conditions...
A but, a if....

 

[dianegcook]

Also I would like to add...
Resurrection can mean different things...
We are all dead men walking until we have the Spirit of Truth...
A higher way of thinking...spiritually...

Ezek.37:1-28
The valley of dry bones..
Those whom are spiritually dead...
God's Words brings life...

As soon as we die, we go to the Father in the spiritual..
Absent from the body present with the Lord..
We no longer need these flesh bodies, they return to dust...
Ecc.12:7
The spirit automatically returns to God...
Like Lazarus and the rich man, they had spiritual bodies because the rich man recognized Lazarus..
In 1Thess.4:14
We see that those whom have passed on, God will bring them back with Him..
They are already there...
In Rev.6:11
White robes were given to those whom had been killed, must had a spiritual body to put robes on...

 

[netchaplain]

so Paul was not speaking of sin when he said "the things I do not want to do, I do"

Thanks Roro for your reply and applicable comment. There are some variations between Bible commentators on this chapter but there is contextual agreement between most of them. Personally I agree with those who believe Paul is describing Himself in the born again state, and due to the ongoing indwelling (Rom 7:17, 20) and temptations of the sin nature (old man) their will be times of interrupted consistency in what we desire and do concerning holiness. I believe Proverbs 6:27, 28 and James 3:2 (nobody can be perfect now) at least generally exemplifies this.

I see Paul's intention of "captive to the principle of sin" (vs 23) is in the sense of him expressing that whenever he sins, it's as one doing something against his desire, i.e. one who is in a prison is always there against his desire, but those who never desire God's law (principles) always sins willfully, e.g. it's not against his desire, and thus is the description between sins of the believer and unbeliever. The sins of the believers are never their wishes (will and desire), which is opposed to those of the unbelievers who wish to sin.

I find it also significant to note Paul's descriptions of "I who do it" is himself after the new nature, and the "sin that dwells in me" is the old nature (vss 17, 20), which manifests that the sinful nature is yet present and interrupting, but never dominating (Rom 6:12, 14). I see vs 25 as a parallel to vss 17 and 20, i.e. "with the mind (new nature) I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh (old nature) the law of sin."

I also see how this answers to "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God" (1 Jhn 3:9), in that God does not consider us in our old nature ("not in the flesh") but in our new nature, which is the "seed" of Christ's nature (Col 3:10) and does not sin. It's my understanding that all who are born again will manifest more of the new nature than the old, chiefly due to the work of the Spirit (Gal 5:17) and the work of the Father (Phl 2:13)--all in the life of Christ (Col 3:4).

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[Roro1972]

Thanks Roro for your reply and applicable comment. There are some variations between Bible commentators on this chapter but there is contextual agreement between most of them. Personally I agree with those who believe Paul is describing Himself in the born again state, and due to the ongoing indwelling (Rom 7:17, 20) and temptations of the sin nature (old man) their will be times of interrupted consistency in what we desire and do concerning holiness. I believe Proverbs 6:27, 28 and James 3:2 (nobody can be perfect now) at least generally exemplifies this.

I see Paul's intention of "captive to the principle of sin" (vs 23) is in the sense of him expressing that whenever he sins, it's as one doing something against his desire, i.e. one who is in a prison is always there against his desire, but those who never desire God's law (principles) always sins willfully, e.g. it's not against his desire, and thus is the description between sins of the believer and unbeliever. The sins of the believers are never their wishes (will and desire), which is opposed to those of the unbelievers who wish to sin.

I find it also significant to note Paul's descriptions of "I who do it" is himself after the new nature, and the "sin that dwells in me" is the old nature (vss 17, 20), which manifests that the sinful nature is yet present and interrupting, but never dominating (Rom 6:12, 14). I see vs 25 as a parallel to vss 17 and 20, i.e. "with the mind (new nature) I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh (old nature) the law of sin."

I also see how this answers to "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God" (1 Jhn 3:9), in that God does not consider us in our old nature ("not in the flesh") but in our new nature, which is the "seed" of Christ's nature (Col 3:10) and does not sin. It's my understanding that all who are born again will manifest more of the new nature than the old, chiefly due to the work of the Spirit (Gal 5:17) and the work of the Father (Phl 2:13)--all in the life of Christ (Col 3:4).

God's blessings to your Family!

Thanks for the answer and thank you for all the connecting verse that make this a very good answer. I have been following this thread and did not mean to interrupt the flow of conversation. thanks again.

 

[netchaplain]

Thanks for the answer and thank you for all the connecting verse that make this a very good answer. I have been following this thread and did not mean to interrupt the flow of conversation. thanks again.

Appreciate your kind gesture but you haven't interrupted anything and please feel at liberty to share what you want.

 

[netchaplain]

We no longer need these flesh bodies, they return to dust...

Like Lazarus and the rich man, they had spiritual bodies because the rich man recognized Lazarus.

Hi Diane and thank you for your encouraging replies. I also wanted to share with you that our new "spiritual bodies" (1 Cor 15:44) will be as the Lord's when He was raised (Luke 14:39).

Just wanting to be encouragingly instructional!

 

[netchaplain]

Thanks. I enjoy your devotional postings.

No my ID is referring to my name and my gender; Chesser. I use to play chess but dropped it once I started a family because I didn't really have the time anymore.

Thanks for sharing the information and your concern for the materials.

 

[dianegcook]

Hi Diane and thank you for your encouraging replies. I also wanted to share with you that our new "spiritual bodies" (1 Cor 15:44) will be as the Lord's when He was raised (Luke 14:39).

Just wanting to be encouragingly instructional!

Me also, of course there is a flesh body and a spiritual body..
When we leave this flesh we put on the spiritual..
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, 1Cor.15:50
In 1Cor.15:53
For this incorruptible (flesh)must put on incorruptible, (spiritual) and this mortal, (liable to die soul) must put on immortality, (deathlessness)

 

[netchaplain]

Me also, of course there is a flesh body and a spiritual body..

Not to be challenging but rather trying to be instructional, it's my understanding that the word "body" in both usages (natural/spiritual) intends physical bodies, as the Lord said He had flesh in His resurrected body (Luk 24:39), i.e. the natural body is physical but corruptible and dies. The spiritual body is also physical but incorruptible and cannot die, similar to Adam and Eve's bodies prior to sinning.

Those who are in spirit only have no body but yet exist, just not in a living sense, which requires a body to be considered alive. That's why we always see in Scripture a separation of body and spirit. Thus the passage means natural flesh cannot enter heaven but spiritual flesh can. Hence the phrase in 1 Cor 15:52, "the dead shall be raised incorruptible," which is also described in 1 Thes 4:16, 17.

For this incorruptible (flesh)must put on incorruptible, (spiritual) and this mortal, (liable to die soul) must put on immortality, (deathlessness)

Just to cover your back I'm mentioning that you meant "For this corruptible (flesh)must put on incorruptible" in the above passage.

Another good example (if I'm not being too lengthy) is Revelation 20:5: "the rest of the dead lived not again," e.g. were in spirit only at that time (still dead - v 12), but were not resurrected until vs 12, 13, which is the last resurrection I believe only includes all the unbelievers; which being a resurrection involves them also receiving an indestructible body (Jhn 5:29), but will not be considered in a state of life though alive, for "eternal life" is only for believers, and eternal death for the unbelievers ("second death" Rev 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8), which of course involves "being tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rom 20:10, 14, 15).

Thanks for you applicable input!

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[dianegcook]

Not to be challenging but rather trying to be instructional, it's my understanding that the word "body" in both usages (natural/spiritual) intends physical bodies, as the Lord said He had flesh in His resurrected body (Luk 24:39), i.e. the natural body is physical but corruptible and dies. The spiritual body is also physical but incorruptible and cannot die, similar to Adam and Eve's bodies prior to sinning.

Those who are in spirit only have no body but yet exist, just not in a living sense, which requires a body to be considered alive. That's why we always see in Scripture a separation of body and spirit. Thus the passage means natural flesh cannot enter heaven but spiritual flesh can. Hence the phrase in 1 Cor 15:52, "the dead shall be raised incorruptible," which is also described in 1 Thes 4:16, 17.


Just to cover your back I'm mentioning that you meant "For this corruptible (flesh)must put on incorruptible" in the above passage.

Another good example (if I'm not being too lengthy) is Revelation 20:5: "the rest of the dead lived not again," e.g. were in spirit only at that time (still dead - v 12), but were not resurrected until vs 12, 13, which is the last resurrection I believe only includes all the unbelievers; which being a resurrection involves them also receiving an indestructible body (Jhn 5:29), but will not be considered in a state of life though alive, for "eternal life" is only for believers, and eternal death for the unbelievers ("second death" Rev 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8), which of course involves "being tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rom 20:10, 14, 15).

Thanks for you applicable input!

God's blessings to your Family!

Hi there
"Rest of the dead lived not again"
I take this as the spiritual dead..
Like all are dead men walking without Christ..
When Jesus returns and sets up His Temple during the millennium , all flesh will be gone..
The good the bad and the ugly...2Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Thus, those whom overcometh, will reign with Christ..
They have immortality..
But the rest, those whom never heard the true gospel, maybe deceived, will be outside of the Temple..
Those whom overcometh the first time, will be kings and priest, teaching them, discipline ..Rev.20:6
These are still spiritual dead..they still have mortal souls.
Then Satan loosed trying to deceive those that had mortal souls..
Those that passed that test, will be made spiritually alive as the first..the others their second death, the death of the soul...
Thanks for listening..

 

[dianegcook]

Hi there
"Rest of the dead lived not again"
I take this as the spiritual dead..
Like all are dead men walking without Christ..
When Jesus returns and sets up His Temple during the millennium , all flesh will be gone..
The good the bad and the ugly...2Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Thus, those whom overcometh, will reign with Christ..
They have immortality..
But the rest, those whom never heard the true gospel, maybe deceived, will be outside of the Temple..
Those whom overcometh the first time, will be kings and priest, teaching them, discipline ..Rev.20:6
These are still spiritual dead..they still have mortal souls.
Then Satan loosed trying to deceive those that had mortal souls..
Those that passed that test, will be made spiritually alive as the first..the others their second death, the death of the soul...
Thanks for listening..

Also want to add my thoughts on torment...
First, God is a consuming fire, that consumes the evil.
In Psa.37:20
It states the wicked shall perish, shall be as the fat of lambs, they shall consume, into smoke shall they consume way..
Like when you grill steaks, it smokes, the smoke goes on forever....
The smoke of their torment goes on forever.
Rev.14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascended up forever and ever..

But that leads to another subject...

 

[netchaplain]

Thanks Diane for your sharing!

Blessings!

 

[Jim Parker]

My understanding is that it is possessed at the time of rebirth, and if so, the phrase “loose eternal life” is not only an oxymoron (you can’t lose eternal life since it means life that is forever) but Scripture has no usages of such language or concept.

Your conclusion is illogical based on faulty grammar.
Suppose I gave you an eternal battery that would never need recharging and would never run down, deteriorate, wear out, break and could not be destroyed.
Suppose you lost it.
Suppose you threw it away.
Suppose you traded it for a bicycle.
It would still be an eternal battery but you would no longer have it.
The word "life" is a noun. It is modified by an adjective. (eternal)
The word "have" is a verb. It is modified by an adverb. (eternally)
In the phrase, "have eternal life", the word eternal refers ONLY to the word "life". It does NOT refer to the word "eternal."
If the having was eternal then the phrase would have to be "eternally have eternal life."
The Greek for eternal life is: ζωὴν αἰώνιον (zoen aionion) The word eternal (αἰώνιον) refers ONLY to the word "life."
To be "eternally have eternal life" it would have to be "ἔχῃ αἰώνιον ζωὴν αἰώνιον."

And, of course, there are the many passages of scripture which very explicitly demonstrate that eternal life can be lost. I've posted them multiple times. Every one of the OSAS folk ignore, distort, or dismiss them without fail.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

((It appears to me that you use your theology to determine what scripture must say rather than using scripture to determine what your theology must say.))
:amen

AH! So THAT'S what I said that got deleted!

iakov the fool

 

[ezra]

Can you please expound on this statement. When are we guiltless? Do people believe when they confess their sins and ask to have them washed in the blood of the lamb, that they are then accounted as innocent?

yuppers we surely are at that moment God wipes the slate clean . justified declared righteous just as if we had never sinned

 

[ezra]

another scared they will lose their salvation post what does it say that we may KNOW we HAVE ETERNAL life? or do i need a new Bible

 

[chessman]

If the having was eternal then the phrase would have to be "eternally have eternal life."

Matthew 19:16 (LEB) And behold, someone came up to him and said, “Teacher, what good thing must I do so that I will have eternal life?” ​

Teacher, what must I do so that I will eternally have eternal life???

John 3:16 (LEB) For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

John 5:24 (LEB) Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. ​

Clearly, having eternal life is to not perish, to have passed from death to life.

How about God's eternal power???

Romans 1:20 (LEB) For from the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity, are discerned clearly, being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse.​

Is it not really eternal either (it can be lost) because Paul didn't use your 'grammar'?

2 Corinthians 4:17 (LEB) For our momentary light affliction is producing in us an eternal weight of glory beyond all measure and proportion, ​

How about our eternal weight of glory that's beyond all measure??? Is it not really eternal because the adjective modifes the noun not the verb and thus it really can be measured?

 

[Jim Parker]

Clearly, having eternal life is to not perish, to have passed from death to life.

The door back to death is always open.

Is it not really eternal either (it can be lost) because Paul didn't use your 'grammar'?

It's not "my grammar." It's the grammar of the language in which your translation of the Bible is written.
Your lack of facility with that grammar does not negate it.

Again, the thing that God gives is "eternal life."
God does not make you keep it.
In fact, Jesus warned his disciples that those who were "in him" would be cut off "from him" by the Father and that those who did not remain in him would dry up, be gathered, and thrown in the fire And Paul repeatedly warned Christians to stay the course wo that they would not loose what they had been given.
I have repeatedly posted the passages in which Paul taught that one's salvation could be lost. Perhaps you failed to understand the grammar in those passages as well.

How about our eternal weight of glory that's beyond all measure??? Is it not really eternal because the adjective modifes the noun not the verb and thus it really can be measured?

That comment doesn't even make sense.

 

[Jim Parker]

another scared they will lose their salvation post what does it say that we may KNOW we HAVE ETERNAL life? or do i need a new Bible

1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
Notice that John said, "that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."
He said that because those who believe have eternal life and those who do not believe do not have eternal life.
John thought it was necessary to tell them that they needed to CONTINUE TO BELIEVE.
He told them to continue because if the ceased to believe they would also cease to have eternal life.
If that wasn't a possibility then John would not have mentioned it.

 

[turnorburn]

1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
Notice that John said, "that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."
He said that because those who believe have eternal life and those who do not believe do not have eternal life.
John thought it was necessary to tell them that they needed to CONTINUE TO BELIEVE.
He told them to continue because if the ceased to believe they would also cease to have eternal life.
If that wasn't a possibility then John would not have mentioned it.

I John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.