Eternal Life

[chessman]

my self i do not want to find out do you?

I find the Bible to be clear on the subject.

None of these so-called de-salvation passages teach de-salvation. And receiving Eternal life upon yielding to the Holy Spirit's teaching about Jesus Christ is clear enough to me on it's own.

But no, I will not become an exbeliever to test it out. I have no idea how anybody could.

Since it is the Holy Spirit that convinced and continues to convince me that Jesus is who He claimed to be, I have no idea what would convince me otherwise short of the Holy Spirit Himself.

 

[ezra]

I find the Bible to be clear on the subject.

None of these so-called de-salvation passages teach de-salvation. And receiving Eternal life upon yielding to the Holy Spirit's teaching about Jesus Christ is clear enough to me on it's own.

But no, I will not become an exbeliever to test it out. I have no idea how anybody could.

Since it is the Holy Spirit that convinced and continues to convince me that Jesus is who He claimed to be, I have no idea what would convince me otherwise short of the Holy Spirit Himself.

i try to be respectful toward both sides of the coin.. i do see eternal salvation some what different than most. i do se it as those who are truly saved will stay with it. we have far to many miscarriages at the altar. my first church i was pastor of. i had young girl come to me after sunday school . asking if i could help get her saved.

i told her listen to the preaching and when the altar call was given. she could come then. she came forward i allowed her to pray.tried to explain few things to her. baptized her couple weeks later. then one other time as i was preaching a mother asked if her grown son could come get saved. she said he wanted to. i agreed even baptized him later on. few weeks later he quit coming. did he get saved i dunno but there is a good chance he didn't . there is true religion and vain religion

 

[JLB]

really this is like beating a dead horse telling it to move. there is nothing in the Bible that say we can live how we want still make heaven. those who are disqualified was never in the race to start with. do i believe we can walk away and turn our back on God yes i do. do i believe it can keep us from heaven depends on who you ask. my self i do not want to find out do you?

That's the core issue.

People want to live a life of gratifying the lustful desires of the flesh, dishonoring God and making a mockery of the cross, which is the sacrifice by which we are cleansed of our sins, and then expect to go to heaven when they die.

Then there are those who teach a person can actually renounce Jesus Christ as Messiah and Savior, to become an Atheist, or Muslim... in which they depart from the faith, no longer believing in Him, yet "somehow" still be afforded the same salvation as those who persevere in faith, to the end.




JLB

 

[ezra]

That's the core issue.

People want to live a life of gratifying the lustful desires of the flesh, dishonoring God and making a mockery of the cross, which is the sacrifice by which we are cleansed of our sins, and then expect to go to heaven when they die.

Then there are those who teach a person can actually renounce Jesus Christ as Messiah and Savior, to become an Atheist, or Muslim... in which they depart from the faith, no longer believing in Him, yet "somehow" still be afforded the same salvation as those who persevere in faith, to the end.




JLB

imo any one who does that was never saved i have talked with those who was raised in a catholic church and seen through the ceremonies and wanted nothing to do with Church. . may things i simply don,t understand even some of the mainline denoms have things that drives people away

 

[JLB]

I find the Bible to be clear on the subject.

None of these so-called de-salvation passages teach de-salvation. And receiving Eternal life upon yielding to the Holy Spirit's teaching about Jesus Christ is clear enough to me on it's own.

But no, I will not become an exbeliever to test it out. I have no idea how anybody could.

Since it is the Holy Spirit that convinced and continues to convince me that Jesus is who He claimed to be, I have no idea what would convince me otherwise short of the Holy Spirit Himself.

One way is: They depart from the faith, giving heed to doctrines of demons.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1


Another way is:

They turn back to the law of Moses, thinking they must become circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved.

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

and again

Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:2-4



JLB

 

[JLB]

imo any one who does that was never saved i have talked with those who was raised in a catholic church and seen through the ceremonies and wanted nothing to do with Church. . may things i simply don,t understand even some of the mainline denoms have things that drives people away

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:1-4


How can a person have the Holy Spirit, and be made free in Christ, if they themselves have not been born again?

• Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free...if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

To "fall from" means a person has indeed obtained God's grace.


To be estranged from Christ, means a person has been enjoined to Christ, through believing the Gospel.

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; Galatians 5:4

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; Galatians 5:4 NASB




JLB

 

[chessman]

One way is: They depart from the faith, giving heed to doctrines of demons.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1

See what I mean??? This verse doesn't say a Christian departs from the faith. It says "some". Who are these some?

Anti-OSASers will claim this verse teaches de-salvation.

First, it's not even a complete sentence or point Paul is making to just quote v1. It's a snip. And furthermore a snip that assumes the "some" within the snip are Christians. It doesn't say the "some" are Christians.

Second, it assumes "the faith" that Paul is talking about is a saving faith in Christ. Rather than reading the context of at lest the entire sentence if not more broadly.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer. ​

Obviously, if one simply takes the time to read the context, we find out that the "departure from the faith" Paul means is that some people (doesn't say saved people) start following a false/demonic doctrine in later times that teaches marriage is sinful and that eating certain foods is sinful. (Sound familiar?)

Nothing about a Christian loosing their salvation is meant by this verse.

 

[ezrider]

Can you please expound on this statement. When are we guiltless? Do people believe when they confess their sins and ask to have them washed in the blood of the lamb, that they are then accounted as innocent?

yuppers we surely are at that moment God wipes the slate clean . justified declared righteous just as if we had never sinned

Do you have some scriptures that supports the idea that we are accounted as innocent?

When you say at that moment God wipes the slate clean, how many of these moment are there? If today you are cleansed and innocent, and tomorrow you go and sin a sin, then has your standing before God changed? Do you seek to be washed again?

 

[chessman]

Please post the scriptures where Paul said he had studying and writing left to do, and for how long.

It doesn't come from Scripture directly. Rather, from the logical conclusion of Paul's request for Timothy to bring him his scrolls and parchment and coat before the winter. Presumably, he planned to do some studying and writing through that winter while under arrest in Rome. Paul spent more than 2 years under arrest in Rome his second time before his execution.

2 Timothy 4:13, 21 (LEB) When you [Timothy] come, bring the cloak that I left behind in Troas with Carpus, and the scrolls, especially the parchments. ... Make haste to come before winter. Eubulus and Pudens and Linus and Claudia and all the brothers greet you.​

Do you think Paul wrote Hebrews?

Hebrews 13:23-24 (LEB) Know that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom I will see you, if he comes quickly enough. Greet all your leaders and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.
​

From the ESV Study Bible:
"Paul also asks Timothy to bring his books and parchment with him. Presumably Paul intends to keep studying and writing until the end."

 

[ezra]

Do you have some scriptures that supports the idea that we are accounted as innocent?

When you say at that moment God wipes the slate clean, how many of these moment are there? If today you are cleansed and innocent, and tomorrow you go and sin a sin, then has your standing before God changed? Do you seek to be washed again?

better yet look up the word justification / justified what does scripture say about our sins being cast in the sea of forgetfulness as far as the ---- to the ---- what would you consider being justified means? what doe the word righteous mean to you? you bet ya the moment we get saved all our past sins are forgiven .every past sin erased he paid a debt he did not owe i owed a debt i could not pay... no sir i am not going to give you Scripture. the burden of prof lay at your door to prove me wrong what does 2nd Corinthians 5:17 say a new what? and old things are what?????? and all things become what? and what does the Blood atonement mean to you? answer these questions and you will find your answer

 

[ezrider]

better yet look up the word justification / justified what does scripture say about our sins being cast in the sea of forgetfulness as far as the ---- to the ---- what would you consider being justified means? what doe the word righteous mean to you? you bet ya the moment we get saved all our past sins are forgiven .every past sin erased he paid a debt he did not owe i owed a debt i could not pay... no sir i am not going to give you Scripture. the burden of prof lay at your door to prove me wrong what does 2nd Corinthians 5:17 say a new what? and old things are what?????? and all things become what? and what does the Blood atonement mean to you? answer these questions and you will find your answer

Whoa, slow down there hoss. The burden of proof is on me to prove you wrong? Who said anything about anything about anybody being wrong about anything? I simply asked a question because I don't understand where the idea of renewed innocence comes from.

I don't need to look up the word justification, nor do I need to tell you what the blood atonement means to me in order for you to answer my question and explain where this idea of becoming innocent comes from so I have a better understanding of it. You were the one who answered my post by saying "Yup", so now explain it to me.

 

[ezra]

I simply asked a question because I don't understand where the idea of renewed innocence comes from.

dunno i suggest you keep studying how many times can we approach the throne of grace i john 1:9 says he remembers our sin after we confess them . not your hoss

 

[JLB]

It doesn't come from Scripture directly. Rather, from the logical conclusion of Paul's request for Timothy to bring him his scrolls and parchment and coat before the winter. Presumably, he planned to do some studying and writing through that winter while under arrest in Rome. Paul spent more than 2 years under arrest in Rome his second time before his execution.

2 Timothy 4:13, 21 (LEB) When you [Timothy] come, bring the cloak that I left behind in Troas with Carpus, and the scrolls, especially the parchments. ... Make haste to come before winter. Eubulus and Pudens and Linus and Claudia and all the brothers greet you.​

Do you think Paul wrote Hebrews?

Hebrews 13:23-24 (LEB) Know that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom I will see you, if he comes quickly enough. Greet all your leaders and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.
​

From the ESV Study Bible:
"Paul also asks Timothy to bring his books and parchment with him. Presumably Paul intends to keep studying and writing until the end."

Yes, more logical fallacy.

Since we are referring to the scripture from 2 Timothy, the last letter Paul was said to have wriiten before his execution.

7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
2 Timothy 4:7-8


Those who depart from the faith, no longer have faith in Christ.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4;7


JLB

 

[chessman]

Yes, more logical fallacy.

Since we are referring to the scripture from 2 Timothy, the last letter Paul was said to have wriiten before his execution.

Please post the Scripture that says 2 Timothy was the last letter Paul wrote before his execution.

But at least now you're on record agreeing that Paul wrote 2 Timothy before he died. Unless of course you see it differently.

Paul's life had not ended. Yet he said he'd finished the race.

Now if you would just agree with Paul that a crown of righteousness will be awarded to all that have loved His appearing, instead of 'seeing' it as only some.

2 Timothy 4:8 (LEB) Finally, the crown of righteousness is reserved for me, that the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but also to all who have loved his appearing. ​

 

[JLB]

Please post the Scripture that says 2 Timothy was the last letter Paul wrote before his execution.

7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 4:7


JLB

 

[JLB]

Now if you would just agree with Paul that a crown of righteousness will be awarded to all that have loved His appearing, instead of 'seeing' it as only some.

2 Timothy 4:8 (LEB) Finally, the crown of righteousness is reserved for me, that the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but also to all who have loved his appearing.

Those who believe to the end, love His appearing until the end.

Those who believe for a while love His appearing for a while, who no longer loving His appearing when they no longer believe.

Please provide the scripture that says those who no longer love His appearing receive the crown of righteousness.

JLB

 

[chessman]

Those who depart from the faith, no longer have faith in Christ.

More adding to Scripture. This Text doesn't say these had faith in Christ.

And what's more, the Text does say what faith they departed from. It's in the part you take away from the sentence. Namely a faith that everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (LEB) Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer. ​

Any teaching (and I mean any) that teaches anything that has been made holy by the word of God and prayer is no longer holy is deceitful and demonic in origin.

 

[chessman]

Those who believe for a while love His appearing for a while, who no longer loving His appearing when they no longer believe.

Those who believe for a while have loved his appearing. Period!

2 Timothy 4:8 (LEB) Finally, the crown of righteousness is reserved for me, that the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but also to all who have loved his appearing. ​

Paul says ALL who have loved His appearing will be awarded the crown of righteousness. Not some, not a few, not most, but ALL. I'm with Paul on this issue.

 

[JLB]

More adding to Scripture. This Text doesn't say these had faith in Christ.

And what's more, the Text does say what faith they departed from. It's in the part you take away from the sentence. Namely a faith that everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (LEB) Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer. ​

Any teaching (and I mean any) that teaches anything that has been made holy by the word of God and prayer is no longer holy is deceitful and demonic in origin.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


So the Holy Spirit is wrong to say that some will depart from the faith?

Please expalin in your own words how someone departs from faith, they don't have.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Those who believe for a while have loved his appearing. Period!

2 Timothy 4:8 (LEB) Finally, the crown of righteousness is reserved for me, that the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but also to all who have loved his appearing. ​

Paul says ALL who have loved His appearing will be awarded the crown of righteousness. Not some, not a few, not most, but ALL. I'm with Paul on this issue.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

No sir.

They loved His appearing, as long as they believed, for when they no longer believe in Him, they no longer believe He will return.

Please explain how someone who doesn't believe in Christ, will somehow love His appearing.

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10

... when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,



JLB