Eternal Punishment or Annihilationism?

[shinydarkrai94]

I've noticed that there's a ton of discussion about this on YouTube. A lot of people get quite passionate about it. Eternal punishment(ists?) often associate annihilationism with universalism and reject it as a heresy, while annihilationists call their opponents cruel, heartless, etc and say that their doctrines are based upon pagan beliefs and will sometimes use other insults (one annihilationist I saw called people who disagreed with him "whores of Babylon"). Anyway, I wasn't sure so I did some research on it and debated my dad about it. The links are as follows:

YouTube - Eternal Punishment VS Annihilationism Debate Part 1/3
YouTube - Eternal Punishment VS Annihilationism Debate Part 2/3
YouTube - Eternal Punishment VS Annihilationism Debate Part 3/3

I haven't done a whole lot of research, but here are a couple things that I've found:

1 - Hell exists
2 - Hell very obviously burns forever
3 - The unsaved face eternal punishment

but then I realized a lot of things that made me favor annihilationism:

1 - In the NT, the Greek word for immortal is used only with the saved and God, never with the unsaved (to be fair, it's not used a lot, but interesting to note).
2 - The verse "fear not the one who can destroy the body, but the one who can destroy the body and soul in hell" at the minimum implies that God is able to destroy the soul. It makes you wonder why Jesus said specifically "in hell" rather than "in general" if the soul really is meant to last forever in hell.
3 - Hell is compared with Sodom and Gomorrah which is interesting since Sodom and Gomorrah is consumed.
4 - Eternal life and eternal punishment are contrasted often. If everyone has eternal life, then why is it contrasted with punishment unless the punishment is death? Or is eternal life some type of phrase meaning specifically, eternal bliss?
5 - The ONLY verse that I've ever heard anyone use (Matt Slick, Kyle Butt, etc) that actually supports (or seems to support) the soul burning in hell forever is Rev 14:9-11. This verse, from the context, definitely seems to be a finite punishment. First, Jesus is mentioned to be in the presence of those who are tortured which makes you wonder why he would spend eternity watching the unsaved tortured. This isn't the significant nor strong evidence, but it's significant nonetheless. Second, John very clearly seems to be quoting or paraphrasing Isaiah 34:10. Check it out for yourself, the verses have the same structure and use the same phrases. However, the context from Isaiah shows that Isaiah is describing a finite destruction. Some may bring up the argument that Aionos ton Aionon (used in Rev 14:9-11) means eternity, but in Revelations, it is used to mean a finite time (namely Rev 11:15 [read 1 Cor 15:23-26 for confirmation, Jesus does not rule for an infinite time on earth] and probably Rev 19:2-3 since the great whore is generally interpreted to be a city or institution). Also, the idea that John was paraphrasing the Old Testament is not implausible as Revelations is estimated to allude to the OT 518 times.


I remain agnostic on the issue but I lean towards Hell being eternal, souls being destroyed and then facing the eternal punishment - death.

One interesting thing that my dad brought up was the argument that in places such as Job, the devil tempted Job with eternal punishment, but this doesn't make sense if the soul is instantly consumed. It makes me wonder whether people face a finite punishment until Judgment day and then face another finite punishment until their soul is consumed or whether people don't face a punishment and are simply judged according to their sins at Judgment day. I haven't researched a lot on this. So anyway, comments? Questions? Disagreements?

 

[tim-from-pa]

Annihilationism. However, that is the same as eternal punishment. The scholars that studied the Greek for eternal is describing the permanence of the action, not meaning that it is ongoing, otherwise fire would be pretty ineffectual if it did not destroy the person. Don't confuse eternal punishment with eternal punishing.

One time I burned a book outside in my burn bucket. I hated everything that it said. I compared the feeling of its destruction to bible jargon and I say that it was burned with eternal fire. Technically, this is not wrong, but the fire is not burning today. But I dare anyone to find any trace of that book, either. It's destruction is eternal.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

According to scripture the wages of sin is death, right? So those judged as unjust will have to "pay" up and what they will face is a second (in most instances) death from which there is no promise or hope of a resurrection.

You said so yourself in one of your points that the punishment is contrasted with the reward. Therefore, if the reward is life, then the punishment is ___________?

 

[Sam21]

Hell or Hades is definately not eternal since Rev tells us plainly that those in hell will be brought before God for judgment and hell itself will be cast into the lake of fire. It seems that the lake of fire is eternal. It would certainly be a relief to know that the lost simply ceased to exist in the lake of fire, that the second death was really death and not continued existence in pain.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I always find it interesting that people try to rationalize the Word of God, especially since it is a mute point to do so!

The Bible is only understood when the person is indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God and all that are not, so, indwelt are pretenders! I, personally, have followed my LORD for the past twenty-one years, led by the Holy Spirit and as a result am often rebuked by the pretenders but the truth is that Hell is Eternal and eternal is never ending!

I wish both of you men good luck (there is no such thing) on your attempts to sell your particular version of this very popular lie but in the end, there will be no result from it. Man is created in the image of God (the first couple of chapters of Genesis) and God, being a Spirit, does not have a physical body, the exception coming some four thousand years later with the birth of the God man. So you can rationalize the fire away using contemporary ideology but it is all useless prater! Those of us that are indwelt with the Spirit of God and have spent our Christian Lives studying the Word know that just as we will exist forever in Heaven, the lost will exist forever in the Lake of Fire forever and their eternal bodies will not perish but they will suffer!

 

[warhorse]

Hell or Hades is definately not eternal since Rev tells us plainly that those in hell will be brought before God for judgment and hell itself will be cast into the lake of fire. It seems that the lake of fire is eternal. It would certainly be a relief to know that the lost simply ceased to exist in the lake of fire, that the second death was really death and not continued existence in pain.

Hell by definition would be eternal seperation from God, as heaven is defined as eternity with God. Thus when hell is thrown into the eternal lake of fire, then eternity is spent in the lake of fire. get it.

 

[warhorse]

I've noticed that there's a ton of discussion about this on YouTube. A lot of people get quite passionate about it. Eternal punishment(ists?) often associate annihilationism with universalism and reject it as a heresy, while annihilationists call their opponents cruel, heartless, etc and say that their doctrines are based upon pagan beliefs and will sometimes use other insults (one annihilationist I saw called people who disagreed with him "whores of Babylon"). Anyway, I wasn't sure so I did some research on it and debated my dad about it. The links are as follows:

YouTube - Eternal Punishment VS Annihilationism Debate Part 1/3
YouTube - Eternal Punishment VS Annihilationism Debate Part 2/3
YouTube - Eternal Punishment VS Annihilationism Debate Part 3/3

I haven't done a whole lot of research, but here are a couple things that I've found:

1 - Hell exists
2 - Hell very obviously burns forever
3 - The unsaved face eternal punishment

but then I realized a lot of things that made me favor annihilationism:

1 - In the NT, the Greek word for immortal is used only with the saved and God, never with the unsaved (to be fair, it's not used a lot, but interesting to note).
2 - The verse "fear not the one who can destroy the body, but the one who can destroy the body and soul in hell" at the minimum implies that God is able to destroy the soul. It makes you wonder why Jesus said specifically "in hell" rather than "in general" if the soul really is meant to last forever in hell.
3 - Hell is compared with Sodom and Gomorrah which is interesting since Sodom and Gomorrah is consumed.
4 - Eternal life and eternal punishment are contrasted often. If everyone has eternal life, then why is it contrasted with punishment unless the punishment is death? Or is eternal life some type of phrase meaning specifically, eternal bliss?
5 - The ONLY verse that I've ever heard anyone use (Matt Slick, Kyle Butt, etc) that actually supports (or seems to support) the soul burning in hell forever is Rev 14:9-11. This verse, from the context, definitely seems to be a finite punishment. First, Jesus is mentioned to be in the presence of those who are tortured which makes you wonder why he would spend eternity watching the unsaved tortured. This isn't the significant nor strong evidence, but it's significant nonetheless. Second, John very clearly seems to be quoting or paraphrasing Isaiah 34:10. Check it out for yourself, the verses have the same structure and use the same phrases. However, the context from Isaiah shows that Isaiah is describing a finite destruction. Some may bring up the argument that Aionos ton Aionon (used in Rev 14:9-11) means eternity, but in Revelations, it is used to mean a finite time (namely Rev 11:15 [read 1 Cor 15:23-26 for confirmation, Jesus does not rule for an infinite time on earth] and probably Rev 19:2-3 since the great whore is generally interpreted to be a city or institution). Also, the idea that John was paraphrasing the Old Testament is not implausible as Revelations is estimated to allude to the OT 518 times.


I remain agnostic on the issue but I lean towards Hell being eternal, souls being destroyed and then facing the eternal punishment - death.

One interesting thing that my dad brought up was the argument that in places such as Job, the devil tempted Job with eternal punishment, but this doesn't make sense if the soul is instantly consumed. It makes me wonder whether people face a finite punishment until Judgment day and then face another finite punishment until their soul is consumed or whether people don't face a punishment and are simply judged according to their sins at Judgment day. I haven't researched a lot on this. So anyway, comments? Questions? Disagreements?

um death and hell are thrown in the lake of fire.

 

[tim-from-pa]

the lost will exist forever in the Lake of Fire forever and their eternal bodies will not perish but they will suffer!

Let's just compare that to scripture. How about straight from the Lord's mouth?


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Those who believe will NOT PERISH but those who don't will (the opposite).

So, which is it now, not perishing or perishing? One can't have it both ways. Let's vote. I'll go with Jesus.

 

[freeway]

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire†(Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire†(Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt†(Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched†(Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment†and “fire†(Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction†(2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever†(Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur†where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever†(Revelation 20:10).

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36).

Is hell real? Is hell eternal?

found this link, Sorry feeling a little lazy but it says what I believe..

 

[th1b.taylor]

Let's just compare that to scripture. How about straight from the Lord's mouth?


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Those who believe will NOT PERISH but those who don't will (the opposite).

So, which is it now, not perishing or perishing? One can't have it both ways. Let's vote. I'll go with Jesus.

While I'm sure that all the girls at the bar think you're cute, that will never make God's eyes twinkle! You have just drawn one scripture from it's, entire, context, the Bible, and only a foolish child will do such silly things as that. I've been studying for a couple of decades now so do you have any original tricks?

 

[tim-from-pa]

While I'm sure that all the girls at the bar think you're cute, that will never make God's eyes twinkle! You have just drawn one scripture from it's, entire, context, the Bible, and only a foolish child will do such silly things as that. I've been studying for a couple of decades now so do you have any original tricks?

I don't know what the girls would think of a middle-aged guy like me. I've been happily married for 25 years. Nevertheless, you haven't supplied much scripture to back up what you are saying. You admittedly contradicted Jesus would said one would perish--- your own words said they would not.

Ok, this goes to all:

My question is that the price to pay for finite sins is eternal torment? Or, in other words, the price is never paid?

 

[tim-from-pa]

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire†(Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire†(Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt†(Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched†(Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment†and “fire†(Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction†(2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever†(Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur†where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever†(Revelation 20:10).

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36).

Is hell real? Is hell eternal?

found this link, Sorry feeling a little lazy but it says what I believe..

Most of what you quote I answered already such as eternal or unquenchable fire speaking to the permanent result and intensity. I am not saying that hell is not real, but rather this is a discourse on the nature of it. To put it in another perspective, replace everlasting fire (the cause) with destruction. That makes it everlasting destruction or perishing. As a matter of fact, you quoted one verse that stated that. Like I said earlier, that book I burned experienced everlasting destruction. It perished. Maybe we should call everlasting fire as fire that brings everlasting destruction.

As for Luke 16:23-24, that's a parable. Parables are symbolic of some truth and are used to hide the meaning from the spiritually blind. I would not take that story to interpret literal realities.

As for "forever" that is translated from the Greek that means ages, where we get our word "eon" from. Take for example the smoke of their torment going up forever and ever. That comes from Isaiah 34:10 pertaining to the destruction of Edom. Let's read it:

It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Here we have a fire not quenched, forever and forever in all generations, but is there a fire burning today? Rather, the result is waste, eternal destruction.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I don't know what the girls would think of a middle-aged guy like me. I've been happily married for 25 years. Nevertheless, you haven't supplied much scripture to back up what you are saying. You admittedly contradicted Jesus would said one would perish--- your own words said they would not.

Ok, this goes to all:

My question is that the price to pay for finite sins is eternal torment? Or, in other words, the price is never paid?

And the answer to that (all four Gospels and sorry for such a small amount of proof) you are asking a silly question. All of our sins have already been paid for on the cross, save the rejection of God, Blasphemy! For that sin and only for that sin will anyone go to Hell and to the Lake of Fire.

 

[taromina2003]

And the answer to that (all four Gospels and sorry for such a small amount of proof) you are asking a silly question. All of our sins have already been paid for on the cross, save the rejection of God, Blasphemy! For that sin and only for that sin will anyone go to Hell and to the Lake of Fire.

Is it so far fetched to believe that at the 7th trump and the King of Kings takes his rightful place that for a thousand years those that did not believe or had the opportunity will be taught by those that excepted the gift of salvation? do we really believe that the Heavenly father is going to condemn poor grandma to a fiery hell because she was not a Christian? or because she was less than what a grandma should be? our Merciful, loving and beautiful LORD has better plans for his souls than throwing them away. Lets teach hope and love. Jesus was given to us not to judge us but to give us salvation!!

 

[tim-from-pa]

And the answer to that (all four Gospels and sorry for such a small amount of proof) you are asking a silly question. All of our sins have already been paid for on the cross, save the rejection of God, Blasphemy! For that sin and only for that sin will anyone go to Hell and to the Lake of Fire.

OK, I agree. So where is Jesus today? If he took on our sins, then he had to suffer the same punishment. Is Jesus still burning in hell? Or did he suffer death?

 

[tim-from-pa]

Is it so far fetched to believe that at the 7th trump and the King of Kings takes his rightful place that for a thousand years those that did not believe or had the opportunity will be taught by those that excepted the gift of salvation? do we really believe that the Heavenly father is going to condemn poor grandma to a fiery hell because she was not a Christian? or because she was less than what a grandma should be? our Merciful, loving and beautiful LORD has better plans for his souls than throwing them away. Lets teach hope and love. Jesus was given to us not to judge us but to give us salvation!!

This is why I oftentimes bring up the subject of the Lord's feasts, which were type and shadows of things to come showing the redemption of mankind. Most of the church today has everything stopping at Pentecost as if there's nothing but eternity once one dies (and the earth remains unchanged). But there's the feast of Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles and the Last Great Day yet to come. Frankly, there's far more to come yet than what we've experienced.

 

[shinydarkrai94]

@th1b and freeway,

No offense to anyone, you certainly could be right--hell could be eternal punishment. However, I refuted both of your arguments in my first post. Freeway, as I said before, eternal punishment and eternally burning flames does not imply eternal torture. Revelations 20:10 and Revelations 14:10-11, as I said, use the phrase aionos ton aionon, which in context with God, generally mean eternal. However, there are several clear cases where they are meant to mean a finite time. Also, 14:10-11 seems to be a finite time, since John seems to be alluding to an old testament verse that is talking about a finite fire. It also doesn't make sense that Jesus would spend eternity watching the unsaved be tortured.

Also, Sam, you seem to be arguing that we are wrong because it is emotionally satisfying to know that God is not torturing people eternally. This is a fallacious argument and is very unlikely, given that I am very much against using emotions to interpret the Bible.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by tim-from-pa

OK, I agree. So where is Jesus today? If he took on our sins, then he had to suffer the same punishment. Is Jesus still burning in hell? Or did he suffer death?

Exactly. Among many other reasons, that concept alone must – by logical deduction - refute the notion of an eternal hell. I think it is safe to say most Christians believe that Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. (2 Cor 5:21) This problem is a very simple one: If the penalty for sin is burning in hell throughout eternity, then Jesus did not pay the price for sin; period! If burning in hell for eternity is the price sinners must pay; and Jesus truly paid that price for sinners; Jesus should still be in hell as we speak; and for the rest of eternity – or else He really didn't pay that price in full. Even if - as some believe - Jesus was in hell for three days and three nights, three days in hell is not the penalty for sin. Even after billions and billions of years, eternity has just begun. A three day sample of hell is not the full price if the full price is being in hell for eternity. It's the easiest concept in the world to understand, and it's amazing how blinding tradition can be. If the penalty is eternity in hell; for Jesus to pay that price in full; He would not have ascended – and He would still be in hell right now as I’m writing this post – and in fact would NEVER be released from hell. The Bible tells us plainly that Jesus DID pay the full price for sin! The Bible also tells us plainly that Jesus is not in hell, but at the Right Hand of The Father! So, if He is no longer in hell at present (hence, will also not be in hell forever) - by logical deduction – there can be no eternal hell. That is the ONLY possible conclusion, and that is the end of the story.

 

[n2thelight]

I've noticed that there's a ton of discussion about this on YouTube. A lot of people get quite passionate about it. Eternal punishment(ists?) often associate annihilationism with universalism and reject it as a heresy, while annihilationists call their opponents cruel, heartless, etc and say that their doctrines are based upon pagan beliefs and will sometimes use other insults (one annihilationist I saw called people who disagreed with him "whores of Babylon"). Anyway, I wasn't sure so I did some research on it and debated my dad about it. The links are as follows:

YouTube - Eternal Punishment VS Annihilationism Debate Part 1/3
YouTube - Eternal Punishment VS Annihilationism Debate Part 2/3
YouTube - Eternal Punishment VS Annihilationism Debate Part 3/3

I haven't done a whole lot of research, but here are a couple things that I've found:

1 - Hell exists
2 - Hell very obviously burns forever
3 - The unsaved face eternal punishment

but then I realized a lot of things that made me favor annihilationism:

1 - In the NT, the Greek word for immortal is used only with the saved and God, never with the unsaved (to be fair, it's not used a lot, but interesting to note).
2 - The verse "fear not the one who can destroy the body, but the one who can destroy the body and soul in hell" at the minimum implies that God is able to destroy the soul. It makes you wonder why Jesus said specifically "in hell" rather than "in general" if the soul really is meant to last forever in hell.
3 - Hell is compared with Sodom and Gomorrah which is interesting since Sodom and Gomorrah is consumed.
4 - Eternal life and eternal punishment are contrasted often. If everyone has eternal life, then why is it contrasted with punishment unless the punishment is death? Or is eternal life some type of phrase meaning specifically, eternal bliss?
5 - The ONLY verse that I've ever heard anyone use (Matt Slick, Kyle Butt, etc) that actually supports (or seems to support) the soul burning in hell forever is Rev 14:9-11. This verse, from the context, definitely seems to be a finite punishment. First, Jesus is mentioned to be in the presence of those who are tortured which makes you wonder why he would spend eternity watching the unsaved tortured. This isn't the significant nor strong evidence, but it's significant nonetheless. Second, John very clearly seems to be quoting or paraphrasing Isaiah 34:10. Check it out for yourself, the verses have the same structure and use the same phrases. However, the context from Isaiah shows that Isaiah is describing a finite destruction. Some may bring up the argument that Aionos ton Aionon (used in Rev 14:9-11) means eternity, but in Revelations, it is used to mean a finite time (namely Rev 11:15 [read 1 Cor 15:23-26 for confirmation, Jesus does not rule for an infinite time on earth] and probably Rev 19:2-3 since the great whore is generally interpreted to be a city or institution). Also, the idea that John was paraphrasing the Old Testament is not implausible as Revelations is estimated to allude to the OT 518 times.


I remain agnostic on the issue but I lean towards Hell being eternal, souls being destroyed and then facing the eternal punishment - death.

One interesting thing that my dad brought up was the argument that in places such as Job, the devil tempted Job with eternal punishment, but this doesn't make sense if the soul is instantly consumed. It makes me wonder whether people face a finite punishment until Judgment day and then face another finite punishment until their soul is consumed or whether people don't face a punishment and are simply judged according to their sins at Judgment day. I haven't researched a lot on this. So anyway, comments? Questions? Disagreements?

The wages of an unrepentant sinner is death,now since everyone will die a flesh death,this has to be the death of the soul......

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Now since the soul is not automatically Immortal we no that it can and will die...

For those who believe in everlasting punishment,can you please explain how the soul dies and live forever at the same time?

Here is a link to the best study Ive seen on this subject

http://hell-know.net/


There are only two choices,life or death,period.........

 

[tig]

The wages of an unrepentant sinner is death,now since everyone will die a flesh death,this has to be the death of the soul......

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Now since the soul is not automatically Immortal we no that it can and will die...

For those who believe in everlasting punishment,can you please explain how the soul dies and live forever at the same time?

Here is a link to the best study Ive seen on this subject

http://hell-know.net/


There are only two choices,life or death,period.........

This is a wonderful subject, though I see you have limited the answer between 2 things. Life and death, or Life and hell. Actually, imo, after research for the last 15 years, I have come to the conclusion that, in the end, eternal punishment and annihilationism is both wrong.

I read it in every book of the bible. The choice here on earth is life or death, life or hell. The bible says that Jesus will baptize with fire and spirit. This fire (or hell if you will) is what torments those who are dead, until they are raised into spirit, which is life. Adam and Eve ate of the tree of death, and the very day they ate they died, not physically, but spiritually. And we are all dead spiritually until we are raised by eating of the tree of life, or when God raises the dead at the last trump when he calls for each and every one of us.


It's what the whole book of the bible is about, the 2 trees, of life and death. The one being the knowledge of good and evil, of which the old testament testifies of, and the other one being Christ, of which the new testament testifies of.

See, this hell, and this death, it's punishment. And us, being human, we may punish our kids after our own pleasure. But God, he punishes for our profit (Heb 12: 5-12). So, imo, the death and hell that we experience is to bring us unto a good place, unto the very presence of God. And where we experience this death and hell is here on this earth.

We all partake in the chastisment of the Lord as stated in Heb 12, and this chastisement comes to our profit.


Well, that is where my research and observations of the scriptures have led me. It truly does seem to be a book declaring the best news possible.