Eternal Punishment or Annihilationism?

[Adullam]

As Christians we should recognize the ETERNAL SEPARATION of those who are lukewarm or become so over time. Christ will spew them out...cut off into the wilderness.

The wicked will go through the second death....which kills their souls in fire. The fire is eternal....the souls are not. They are consumed in the fire. Only that which is holy can make it though the fire.

 

[n2thelight]

See, this hell, and this death, it's punishment. And us, being human, we may punish our kids after our own pleasure. But God, he punishes for our profit (Heb 12: 5-12). So, imo, the death and hell that we experience is to bring us unto a good place, unto the very presence of God. And where we experience this death and hell is here on this earth.

Death of the flesh is here on earth,death of the soul is eternal........

 

[Asyncritus]

Just as an aside, can we have some comments on this 'little' puzzle?

Jesus says:

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

If the everlasting fire is 'prepared for' the devil and his angels, then it follows that they are not there right now. We don't prepare something for someone who has it already!

Comments?

 

[Hitch]

Just as an aside, can we have some comments on this 'little' puzzle?

Jesus says:

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

If the everlasting fire is 'prepared for' the devil and his angels, then it follows that they are not there right now. We don't prepare something for someone who has it already!

Comments?

The eternal state is still ahead of creation.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

As Christians we should recognize the ETERNAL SEPARATION of those who are lukewarm or become so over time. Christ will spew them out...cut off into the wilderness.

The wicked will go through the second death....which kills their souls in fire. The fire is eternal....the souls are not. They are consumed in the fire. Only that which is holy can make it though the fire.

"Only that which is holy can make it though the fire." What's that "supposed to mean????

 

[Adullam]

"Only that which is holy can make it though the fire." What's that "supposed to mean????

The fire reveals what is there that can live into eternity. The wood hay and stubble are consumed in the fire. The souls of wicked men have no merit so they are consumed in the fire. Only that which is of God can survive the fire.

 

[Hitch]

The fire reveals what is there that can live into eternity. The wood hay and stubble are consumed in the fire. The souls of wicked men have no merit so they are consumed in the fire. Only that which is of God can survive the fire.

Well that explains why fire fire is eternal...:eeeekkk

 

[Asyncritus]

The eternal state is still ahead of creation.

Du-h-h-h? :eeeekkk

 

[Potluck]

Eternal Punishment or Annihilationism?

Eternal punishment is something we really have a hard time with. Seems kind of harsh doesn't it?
On the other hand annihilation seems more appropriate in that you're judged to obliteration and there's nothing more after that ... like it was before you were even born. Nada. Easy.
That's a bit more to our sense of judgment I think. Right?

Adam demonstrated man's pride and for that he was banned from eating from the Tree of Life. He died after a time. And that curse was for all of mankind.
Well, that seems a bit harsh. After all, it was Adam, not me or you that ate the apple. But it seems we will all face death sooner or later regardless of the opinion of fairness.

Strike one

Some years go by and man didn't quite get it. Maybe they too had some convoluted opinion and didn't take God seriously. In short, their sin led to another warning, the Great Flood.
As far as scripture tells us all but 8 people were killed. I assume that means not only the men but women and children as well. Whether one wants to believe a local flood or a global one the unsavory fact remains that a lot of people drowned. Again, going against our sensibilities even women and children drowned. And that included animals who really didn't have much to say in the matter but because of man's rebellion they too suffered. After all, man was given dominion over them therefore the animals couldn't be greater and spared the cataclysmic event.

Strike two

Some years go by and man still hasn't made the connection from pride to God's authority. Adam's fate was the first warning. Destruction of Noah's world was the second which brings us to the present.

So the third warning will simply be oblivion, no suffering the separation from God for eternity but just oblivion as if we were never born?
If the last two warnings seemed harsh to us why would the third punishment align with our sense of justice?
Would anyone here really place a curse on mankind as punishment for Adam's disobedience? Would anyone here destroy the earth as the Great Flood killing all, all of all ages even newborns, for man's collective disobedience? I don't think so. Yet, some want to believe oblivion is our final fate because it's just seems to be better that way. More, well, fair I guess.

Strike three will not be less severe than the first two. If there's anything I've learned growing up is that punishment for a third offense is always worse than the first two. And I don't think that trend is going to change anytime soon.

 

[Webb]

The scriptures do teach that punishment and heaven are equal in the sence that both are eternal.

 

[Potluck]

The scriptures do teach that punishment and heaven are equal in the sence that both are eternal.

And that is the point of debate where scripture is interpreted one way or another depending on what one wants to believe or what one has been taught. Even a statement of objectivity toward the interpretation of scripture has it's own pitfalls. After all, we do have a sense of judgment, a sense of fairness if you will.

Am I saying scripture is invalid? Absolutely not. Scripture teaches us past events and in this case God's wrath toward man's disobedience. The severity of the past two major warnings for man is obvious. Whether one wants to believe eternal punishment or a more "civil" and "just" (in man's mind) end carries little to no weight at all against what God does or doesn't do.

But we do have evidence in scripture and experience of living and dying that testify to the seriousness of the offense and the intensity of God's wrath against sin. I see little reason to think the ultimate end of man will be simply a return to the nothingness of a pre-born existence or non-existence as far as oblivion goes.

The Father has given us a means to avoid His ultimate wrath, the gift of His Son, Jesus Christ. I don't know what else God is expected to do. And I sure don't believe he'll show mercy of oblivion when He has already provided mercy and forgiveness through the divine already act done on the Cross.

Think about it. How serious is the offense, how serious is God's wrath in light of what had to be done to give man a way to avoid His wrath? Christ shedding His blood is no small matter by any stretch. There must be reason for such a severe act as God giving His only begotten Son to provide mercy, forgiveness and reconciliation. There is urgency here, I cannot emphasis that enough and oblivion diminishes that urgency aligning with man's sense of judgment or fairness rather than God's will and the testimony already given to the severity of that wrath against a sinful nature.

 

[jasoncran]

i think we have some hard thing to support if theres a literal fire in hell and what gehenna alludes to.

sprits being immaterial and not subject to natural laws are tormented in a fire? also is said references to sheol, hades are to be studied first and then we can understand what hell is.

the kjv doenst translate sheol well nor hades.

hades is a greek concept, sheol is the jewish one.

 

[Stormcrow]

hades is a greek concept, sheol is the jewish one.

And then there are the Greek concepts of Tartarus and Thanatos, the latter of which is also mentioned in the Bible.

Hades is, indeed, the Greek equivalent of Sheol, while both Tartarus and Thanatos each convey something different.

The problem is, when all of these Greek words are translated into the single English word "hell", then we really lose what the apostles who wrote about them are trying to say. It might pay people to study the different Greek concepts of Hades, Tartarus, and Thanatos before trying to stake out a fixed doctrinal position on this.

For what it's worth.

 

[jasoncran]

And then there are the Greek concepts of Tartarus and Thanatos, the latter of which is also mentioned in the Bible.

Hades is, indeed, the Greek equivalent of Sheol, while both Tartarus and Thanatos each convey something different.

The problem is, when all of these Greek words are translated into the single English word "hell", then we really lose what the apostles who wrote about them are trying to say. It might pay people to study the different Greek concepts of Hades, Tartarus, and Thanatos before trying to stake out a fixed doctrinal position on this.

For what it's worth.

actually i would go the jewish oral traditions. they translated the bible to greek. remember greek ideas arent really close to what have.

in hades there also the idea of heaven. not the case with our heaven.

sheol is close but does have the idea in traditions of a rabbi whom will die and go to sheol and preach and raise the wicked to life.

sound kinda familiar. it should hebrews nearly says that.

 

[Potluck]

Fire is usually equated with God's judgment as in the illustration of refining and what is left will be burned up. I for one don't believe the literal environment of fire and brimstone but rather being under condemnation through the fire, the judgment of God.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Here we also see thirst as a means of suffering. That thirst in my opinion is the thirst for Christ and His saving grace.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Being forever separated from the Father through a rebellious spirit would indeed be torment. The rich man above was indeed tormented seeing Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham but him abiding in the fire of God's judgment and thirsting for salvation that will never come.

That's Hell in my book. Eternally knowing and eternally bearing the torment of an unrepentant heart.

 

[Asyncritus]

It's always best to check what the Bible says about things before forming an opinion.

Here are the 63 occurrences of the Hebrew word 'sheol' <07585> which is translated 'hell' sometimes.

You will see that the principal meaning is 'the grave'.

Ge 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave <07585> unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
Ge 42:38 And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave <07585>.

Ge 44:29 And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave <07585>.

Ge 44:31 It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave <07585>.

Nu 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit <07585>; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.

Nu 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit <07585>, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

De 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell <07585>, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

1Sa 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave <07585>, and bringeth up.

2Sa 22:6 The sorrows of hell <07585> compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

1Ki 2:6 Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave <07585> in peace.

1Ki 2:9 Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave <07585> with blood.

Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave <07585> shall come up no more.

Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell <07585>; what canst thou know?

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave <07585>, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave <07585> is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

Job 17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit <07585>, when our rest together is in the dust.

Job 21:13 They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave <07585>.

Job 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave <07585> those which have sinned.

Job 26:6 Hell <07585> is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave <07585> who shall give thee thanks?

Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell <07585>, and all the nations that forget God.

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell <07585>; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ps 18:5 The sorrows of hell <07585> compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Ps 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave <07585>: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Ps 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave <07585>.

Ps 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave <07585>; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave <07585> from their dwelling.

Ps 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave <07585>: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Ps 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell <07585>: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

Ps 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell <07585>.

Ps 88:3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave <07585>.

Ps 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave <07585>? Selah.

Ps 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell <07585> gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell <07585>, behold, thou art there.

Ps 141:7 Our bones are scattered at the grave’s <07585> mouth, as when one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth.

Pr 1:12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave <07585>; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:

Pr 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell <07585>.

Pr 7:27 Her house is the way to hell <07585>, going down to the chambers of death
.
Pr 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell <07585>.

Pr 15:11 Hell <07585> and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

Pr 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell <07585> beneath.

Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell <07585>.

Pr 27:20 Hell <07585> and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Pr 30:16 The grave <07585>; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough.

Ec 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave <07585>, whither thou goest.

So 8:6 Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave <07585>: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.

Isa 5:14 Therefore hell <07585> hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Isa 14:9 Hell <07585> from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave <07585>, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell <07585>, to the sides of the pit.

Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell <07585> are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell <07585> shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Isa 38:10 I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave <07585>: I am deprived of the residue of my years.

Isa 38:18 For the grave <07585> cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Isa 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell <07585>.

Eze 31:15 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave <07585> I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.

Eze 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell <07585> with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Eze 31:17 They also went down into hell <07585> with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.

Eze 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell <07585> with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Eze 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell <07585> with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Ho 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave <07585>; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave <07585>, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Am 9:2 Though they dig into hell <07585>, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell <07585> cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Hab 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell <07585>, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:

 

[jasoncran]

It's always best to check what the Bible says about things before forming an opinion.

Here are the 63 occurrences of the Hebrew word 'sheol' <07585> which is translated 'hell' sometimes.

You will see that the principal meaning is 'the grave'.

Ge 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave <07585> unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
Ge 42:38 And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave <07585>.

Ge 44:29 And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave <07585>.

Ge 44:31 It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave <07585>.

Nu 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit <07585>; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.

Nu 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit <07585>, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

De 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell <07585>, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

1Sa 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave <07585>, and bringeth up.

2Sa 22:6 The sorrows of hell <07585> compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

1Ki 2:6 Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave <07585> in peace.

1Ki 2:9 Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave <07585> with blood.

Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave <07585> shall come up no more.

Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell <07585>; what canst thou know?

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave <07585>, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave <07585> is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

Job 17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit <07585>, when our rest together is in the dust.

Job 21:13 They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave <07585>.

Job 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave <07585> those which have sinned.

Job 26:6 Hell <07585> is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave <07585> who shall give thee thanks?

Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell <07585>, and all the nations that forget God.

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell <07585>; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ps 18:5 The sorrows of hell <07585> compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Ps 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave <07585>: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Ps 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave <07585>.

Ps 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave <07585>; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave <07585> from their dwelling.

Ps 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave <07585>: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Ps 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell <07585>: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

Ps 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell <07585>.

Ps 88:3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave <07585>.

Ps 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave <07585>? Selah.

Ps 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell <07585> gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell <07585>, behold, thou art there.

Ps 141:7 Our bones are scattered at the grave’s <07585> mouth, as when one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth.

Pr 1:12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave <07585>; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:

Pr 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell <07585>.

Pr 7:27 Her house is the way to hell <07585>, going down to the chambers of death
.
Pr 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell <07585>.

Pr 15:11 Hell <07585> and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

Pr 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell <07585> beneath.

Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell <07585>.

Pr 27:20 Hell <07585> and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Pr 30:16 The grave <07585>; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough.

Ec 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave <07585>, whither thou goest.

So 8:6 Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave <07585>: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.

Isa 5:14 Therefore hell <07585> hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Isa 14:9 Hell <07585> from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave <07585>, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell <07585>, to the sides of the pit.

Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell <07585> are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell <07585> shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Isa 38:10 I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave <07585>: I am deprived of the residue of my years.

Isa 38:18 For the grave <07585> cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Isa 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell <07585>.

Eze 31:15 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave <07585> I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.

Eze 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell <07585> with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Eze 31:17 They also went down into hell <07585> with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.

Eze 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell <07585> with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Eze 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell <07585> with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Ho 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave <07585>; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave <07585>, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Am 9:2 Though they dig into hell <07585>, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell <07585> cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Hab 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell <07585>, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:

hell there in the ot is sheol, sheol is the grave and in the grave theres a place for the wicked and the righteous like the parable.

 

[westtexas]

Here are the 63 occurrences of the Hebrew word 'sheol' <07585> which is translated 'hell' sometimes.

You will see that the principal meaning is 'the grave'.

I think the ancient Greeks disagree with you and I'd like to hear your thoughts. The Hebrew word for grave is "qeber"-the Greek word for grave is "mnema". In the Septuagint, the Hebrew word "sheoul"-in every instance- is translated as "hades" and NEVER as "mnema-grave". Conversely-in every instance- the word "qeber-grave" is translated "mnema-grave". Any thoughts?
Westtexas

 

[tig]

And that is the point of debate where scripture is interpreted one way or another depending on what one wants to believe or what one has been taught. Even a statement of objectivity toward the interpretation of scripture has it's own pitfalls. After all, we do have a sense of judgment, a sense of fairness if you will.

Yes, this is true. Yet we are told that those who seek, "find". So I believe anyone honestly seeking will find. And I always try to keep in mind that man's judgement falls far short from the judgement of the one described as "love" itself. So, if anything, we will find our heavenly Father's judgement much more full of mercy and grace than any of our judgements.

Am I saying scripture is invalid? Absolutely not. Scripture teaches us past events and in this case God's wrath toward man's disobedience. The severity of the past two major warnings for man is obvious. Whether one wants to believe eternal punishment or a more "civil" and "just" (in man's mind) end carries little to no weight at all against what God does or doesn't do.

But we do have evidence in scripture and experience of living and dying that testify to the seriousness of the offense and the intensity of God's wrath against sin. I see little reason to think the ultimate end of man will be simply a return to the nothingness of a pre-born existence or non-existence as far as oblivion goes.

Yes, the judgement of God against sin is "the soul that sinneth, it shall die". Which brings us to the question of what is a "soul"? Of which we find the answer in the second book of Genesis: 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Seems elementary according to that description that - dust of the ground + breath of God = soul. Without either the dust of the ground, or the breath of God, then there is no soul.

Before mankind ate from the tree of death, man was described as "a living soul". After partaking of that tree of death, that very day, man became "a dead soul". The primary difference being that before man ate of the tree of death, he was not focused or aware of "the flesh", and after eating of the tree of death, man was accutely aware of "the flesh" and it's "short comings" so to speak.

The Father has given us a means to avoid His ultimate wrath, the gift of His Son, Jesus Christ. I don't know what else God is expected to do. And I sure don't believe he'll show mercy of oblivion when He has already provided mercy and forgiveness through the divine already act done on the Cross.

Yes, God has provided us a means to avoid his ultimate wrath, which according to the John 3 is: 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

What is wonderful is that God's ultimate condemnation is that he sent light into the world, but men loved darkness more, so they remained in that condemnation. This wrath and condemnation is a very present thing, not a thing that takes place in the future. Yet, for all this, the Father still loves his children and have given to them the gift of eternal life, of which JC is the record (1 Jn 5: 10-11). Key word, "The Father", or as JC told the masses to address God, "Our Father" and our Father loves us his children, and does not fail in his job of teaching us the sufferings of death.

God has placed us his children on this earth for the sufferings of death, we all graduate, some here, but most at the end, as is testified to in this place 1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Think about it. How serious is the offense, how serious is God's wrath in light of what had to be done to give man a way to avoid His wrath? Christ shedding His blood is no small matter by any stretch. There must be reason for such a severe act as God giving His only begotten Son to provide mercy, forgiveness and reconciliation. There is urgency here, I cannot emphasis that enough and oblivion diminishes that urgency aligning with man's sense of judgment or fairness rather than God's will and the testimony already given to the severity of that wrath against a sinful nature.

Yes, the serious reason God had for giving his only begotten Son we are told is that he loves us. The greatest reason in the universe, his love is why he was willing. And yes, the urgency is that today is the day of salvation, you need not wait until you are taken from this earth to know of the love of your "Heavenly Father". You can know it now, and understand that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared to the glory which shall be revealed "in" us.

Now abideth faith, hope, and charity, but the greatest of these is charity. The faith of JC is what saves us from believing a lie (that there is some kind of work we could do to gain God's favor), hope is what JC gives us if we believe the faith that he preached, but it is love that caused God to give everyone of us his free gift of eternal life.

This gift is not something you have to do something for it, otherwise it is not a gift. It is ours, we can unwrap it now, or it can be unwrapped for us at the end of our time here. Man! What can seperate us from the love of God? According to Paul, nothing! Awesome!

 

[Asyncritus]

Wt

I don't know enough Hebrew to argue about it, so I'll have to leave it there.

I think there's enough passages where the word obviously means the grave to put the point past question. Just have a quick review of them and you'll soon see what I mean.