Eternal Punishment or Annihilationism?

[St. Helens]

What do you do with verses like this? They talk about a lake of fire that burns forever.

Revelation 20:7-15

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Davies]

I think a plain rendering of the Scriptures would lead a person to believe in the two eternal places or abodes, Heaven and the Lake of Fire. There has been enough Scriptures shared so I won't reiterate those. I would pose a question though. What makes sin so bad as to warrant eternal death? In our eyes, this doesn't seem fair. But I've heard it put this way. If I lie to by son, what can he do to me as a consequence? Nothing. If I lie to my wife, I could end up sleeping on the couch. If I lie to a civil/criminal judge? I could go to jail. If I lie to God, then I could pay for my sins for an eternity. What is the difference between each scenario? The one whom I have sinned against. God is infinite and holy, so, it makes sense the punishment would be infinite and holy. I think not knowing the holy nature of God is what may be missing from this thread.

Because Jesus was the second Person of the Godhead, was without sin, and fulfilled the requirements of the law, His death provided propitiation for our sins. Because of the severity of the judgment, burning in the Lake of Fire forever and ever, we should be informed not only of the holiness of God, but of the wonderful grace of God. One of the reasons why the Lake of Fire is eternal is because we can't afford to pay for our sins, where Jesus could afford. We finally understand what justice means to a perfect and holy God. Remember the price Jesus paid, being separated from the Father. Up to that point, the Trinity had never experienced separation, at least with the information we've been given.

Just thinking,
- Davies

 

[St. Helens]

Personally I don't believe in Annihilationism.

 

[westtexas]

Wt

I don't know enough Hebrew to argue about it, so I'll have to leave it there.

I think there's enough passages where the word obviously means the grave to put the point past question. Just have a quick review of them and you'll soon see what I mean.

I don't really care to argue about anything but I'll be glad to discuss it. I believe the word "sheoul" is the "abode of the dead" and it's Greek counterpart is "hades". "Qeber" is the Hebrew word for grave and "Mnema" is it's Greek counterpart.
You have pointed out the word "sheoul" is translated as grave 31 times in the KJV. Can I ask what point you are trying to get across? I'll be glad to discuss it.

Westtexas

 

[Asyncritus]

Simply that when I see the word 'hell' in the OT, I understand it to mean 'the grave'.

This meaning obviously must carry over into the NT, which quotes for instance:

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (=sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (= hades), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Therefore, the NT hades must be equivalent to the Hebrew sheol, all the Greek unscriptural ideas notwithstanding.

 

[John 8:32]

What do you do with verses like this? They talk about a lake of fire that burns forever.

Revelation 20:7-15

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning? Nope. Yet they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire. An eternal punishment. They are gone, burned up, forever.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The real truth is that the incorrigibly wicked are burned up to ashes and cease to exist...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Ezekiel shows us that the soul is not immortal...

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This is why Christ came to save us from perishing...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The word perish here is...

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

It doesn't mean eternal life separated from God, it means death.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The word death here is...

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Again, it means death.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Christ says that the soul can be destroyed. You can either believe that or you can believe Satan and the first recorded lie...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 

[jesus4life]

May GOD's love, grace and mercy be upon all of us:

Daniel 7:11
11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

REVELATIONS 18:8
8 Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

REVELATION 17:6-8
6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7 Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

ISAIAH 29:20
20 The ruthless will vanish,
the mockers will disappear,
and all who have an eye for evil will be cut down—

EZEKIAL 18:32
32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!


Grace and Peace,

jesus4life