Eternal Security of the Believer !

[felix]

Ah.. it means off topic...
So, let's go back to topic.

Please address the sheep and vine sayings of Christ having Christ as foundation for all doctrine - (not Paul's or your pastor's foundation).

 

[savedbygrace57]

felix





Please address the sheep and vine sayings of Christ having Christ as
foundation for all doctrine

I have made my statement, and if you believe a Sheep can be lost that Christ found and or saved as portrayed here Lk 15:1-7

Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. See Lk 19:10

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

After finding it, and having put it upon His Shoulders, denoting His Strength,Protection and the sheeps obvious weakness, now for the sheep to come up missing again, is His Fault !

Thats the conclusion of one loosing their Salvation, Christ the Shepherd is at fault !

 

[felix]

I have made my statement, and if you believe a Sheep can be lost that Christ found and or saved as portrayed here Lk 15:1-7

Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. See Lk 19:10

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

After finding it, and having put it upon His Shoulders, denoting His Strength,Protection and the sheeps obvious weakness, now for the sheep to come up missing again, is His Fault !

Thats the conclusion of one loosing their Salvation, Christ the Shepherd is at fault !

Which is why I said, "a sheep by it's very nature" will never get lost on it's own. So, the lost sheep is not because the sheep wanders here and there but lost because of other circumstances like the thief had stolen it or misled by wolves in sheep's clothing (i.e, false prophets). Those who are deceived by others but truly want to be saved are the lost sheep. However, if someone wanders here and there and does not follow, then they are not sheep but goats. Only "a goat by it's very nature" wander here and there and are independent of their own.

Christ is the shepherd of His sheep not people who call themselves as sheep but are actually goats. Because, His sheep will follow Him and following Him is to take the cross "daily" which means, you are not saved if you don't take the cross daily and follow Him.

Isn't much clear how Christ explained it? Do you still want to try twisting it ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Which is why I said, "a sheep by it's very nature" will never get lost on it's own. So, the lost sheep is not because the sheep wanders here and there but lost because of other circumstances like the thief had stolen it or misled by wolves in sheep's clothing (i.e, false prophets). Those who are deceived by others but truly want to be saved are the lost sheep. However, if someone wanders here and there and does not follow, then they are not sheep but goats. Only "a goat by it's very nature" wander here and there and are independent of their own.

Christ is the shepherd of His sheep not people who call themselves as sheep but are actually goats. Because, His sheep will follow Him and following Him is to take the cross "daily" which means, you are not saved if you don't take the cross daily and follow Him.

Isn't much clear how Christ explained it? Do you still want to try twisting it ?

If a Sheep that has been found by Christ, is lost again, no matter how, then Christ the Shepherd is responsible. If the Sheep does not continue in Christ's Word, its the Shepherds fault !

 

[felix]

If a Sheep that has been found by Christ, is lost again, no matter how, then Christ the Shepherd is responsible. If the Sheep does not continue in Christ's Word, its the Shepherds fault !

How many times I had to tell you that a sheep will never get lost on it's own. If a sheep was lost, it was deceived by wolves within the flock in sheep clothing and others. A sheep will never wander but always stay in the flock. So, don't ever think that the sheep got lost on it's own.

Do you know that both sheep and goats know Christ and yet only Christ know only His sheep? Sheep who stay in flock and follow the Shepherd practice righteousness and goats who don't stay in flock but wander practice wickedness. Don't think that something is inside the flock means they are all sheep. There are also wolves in sheep clothing who think they are sheep and Christ will save them. Unfortunately, He never know them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

How many times I had to tell you that a sheep will never get lost on it's own. If a sheep was lost, it was deceived by wolves within the flock in sheep clothing and others. A sheep will never wander but always stay in the flock. So, don't ever think that the sheep got lost on it's own.

Do you know that both sheep and goats know Christ and yet only Christ know only His sheep? Sheep who stay in flock and follow the Shepherd practice righteousness and goats who don't stay in flock but wander practice wickedness. Don't think that something is inside the flock means they are all sheep. There are also wolves in sheep clothing who think they are sheep and Christ will save them. Unfortunately, He never know them.

If a Sheep that has been found by Christ, is lost again, no matter how, then Christ the Shepherd is responsible. If the Sheep does not continue in Christ's Word, its the Shepherds fault !

 

[felix]

If a Sheep that has been found by Christ, is lost again, no matter how, then Christ the Shepherd is responsible. If the Sheep does not continue in Christ's Word, its the Shepherds fault !

Oh really? Can you back your statement by Scripture?

 

[iLOVE]

Where did you get this idea? Ephesians 1 doesn't say "the moment" about anything, it simply states that they were sealed with the Spirit "AFTER"
they believed, not a the moment they believed. Additionally, what you said about the Spirit not participating in sin is what is called "Dualism" and it has its roots in Gnosticism, not Christianity. Gnosticism taught that the only the flesh could sin and that the spirit could not. These are the same people who said that Jesus didn't come in the flesh because they believed that the flesh was inherently evil and the Christ being pure could not dwell in an evil flesh body. It was these Gnostics that the apostles John called "antichrist."

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (2Jo 1:7 KJV)

John said, 'if we say we have no sin we are a liar and the truth is not in us.' He said that because the Gnostics taught that the spirit could not sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1Jo 1:8 KJV)


I would reconsider that idea about the spirit, it's not what the apostles taught.

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. Acts 2:41

 

[savedbygrace57]

Oh really? Can you back your statement by Scripture?

I already have ! You reject it !

 

[felix]

I already have ! You reject it !

No you didn't.

John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every [branch] that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

 

[felix]

savedbygrace57,

If you are not sure what Christ taught, let me help you ....

• Matt 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
• Matt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

I suggest you read my blog ( http://www.churchsw.org/eternal-security-false-doctrine ) which the motive of knowing the truth where I explained the twisted interpretation today of what Paul actually said which is also warned by Peter in 2nd Peter last few verses.

 

[savedbygrace57]

felix

savedbygrace57,

If you are not sure what Christ taught, let me help
you ....

See previous posts I made in this thread !

 

[felix]

felix

See previous posts I made in this thread !

Nothing there ...

 

[savedbygrace57]

Nothing there ...

Thats because you do not accept it, thats on you bud !

 

[felix]

Thats because you do not accept it, thats on you bud !

No, because you did not back the statement with Scriptures that Christ is responsible.

I showed you that it is not that Christ is responsible but He even removes the branch and throws it away if it doesn't bear fruit. I also explained that the very nature of the sheep is, it will never get lost on it's own unless deceived by others like wolf in sheep clothing.
Both verses clearly refute eternal security.

Yet, you try to escape using your meaningless statements without giving a proper verse.

 

[savedbygrace57]

felix

No,

Yes, you reject it, thats on you !

 

[felix]

felix



Yes, you reject it, thats on you !

You fail to back you claim that Jesus is responsible for your sins.

 

[Deborah13]

When did a branch became a "true" branch? Is there a false branch? Isn't it easy to believe Christ's words as it is in John 15:2?

If you say a true branch can be lost - Sorry, I did not say that but Christ does. Infact it is not lost but thrown away by Him.

First learn what a sheep does. A sheep will never wander on it's own. The very example of "sheep" in the passage disproves eternal security because, if a sheep is lost, it is because of the Shepherd's carelessness as sheep will never wander on it's own.


Also, a sheep will always follow the shepherd.

Do you know what it means to follow Christ?

Luke 9:23 Then He said to [them] all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

If you have something to do daily to follow Him, how can you even say you have any security?

if you have Christ in you, you have eternal life, salvation and all promises. But if you reject Him anytime, so does eternal life, salvation and all promises goes with Him. We have everything in Him. You can't separate Christ from eternal life.

As an Aussie I can't believe you are talking about real live sheep ALWAYS following the shepard and NEVER straying. You make them sound like these little obedient lambs as in Mary had a little lamb (and even her's got lost).
I've been around a lot of sheep in my 60 yrs. chasing them out of the alfalfa, watching the herding dogs bringing them in and penning. Ever been kicked by one of the gentle beasts? LOL
Ever gone looking for the ones who aren't paying attention, the herd moves and they get left behind because the following the green grass. I've never seen a shepard who could call in his sheep, thus dogs who fetch in the sheep. The dog is the one who listens to the shepard.

However the shepard and his dogs will stay with the sheep, camping out on the mountain side. Protecting them from coyotes mountain lions, and bears, in my part of the world. They have no defense against an aggressor. They are not very bright or courageous. We say, "a sheep is born looking for a place to die". They need all the help they can get just to stay alive.

So downunder you have a much hardier and smarter breed than we do in the Rockies.

I tend to think that we are much like the Rockie Mt. sheep and that is why we so need our Savior the Good Shepard. And that is why He says to come to Him as little children that need guidance and protection.

However, I don't believe that we can ever BLAME the Shepard for our failures. If we fall it is because we were not paying attention to Him.

 

[felix]

As an Aussie I can't believe you are talking about real live sheep ALWAYS following the shepard and NEVER straying. You make them sound like these little obedient lambs as in Mary had a little lamb (and even her's got lost).
I've been around a lot of sheep in my 60 yrs. chasing them out of the alfalfa, watching the herding dogs bringing them in and penning. Ever been kicked by one of the gentle beasts? LOL
Ever gone looking for the ones who aren't paying attention, the herd moves and they get left behind because the following the green grass. I've never seen a shepard who could call in his sheep, thus dogs who fetch in the sheep. The dog is the one who listens to the shepard.

However the shepard and his dogs will stay with the sheep, camping out on the mountain side. Protecting them from coyotes mountain lions, and bears, in my part of the world. They have no defense against an aggressor. They are not very bright or courageous. We say, "a sheep is born looking for a place to die". They need all the help they can get just to stay alive.

So downunder you have a much hardier and smarter breed than we do in the Rockies.

I tend to think that we are much like the Rockie Mt. sheep and that is why we so need our Savior the Good Shepard. And that is why He says to come to Him as little children that need guidance and protection.

However, I don't believe that we can ever BLAME the Shepard for our failures. If we fall it is because we were not paying attention to Him.

I wasn't speaking about an aussie shepherd but an antient middle-eastern shepherd who literally live with the sheep for weeks after leading them to green pastures, like David and Joseph's brothers went to feed their flock.

For differences between sheep and goat, there are tons of pages and you can refer to.
http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-sheep-and-goat/

Also, biblical shepherds doesn't seem to use dogs.
(John 10:3) To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

How many aussie shepherd know their sheep by names?

 

[savedbygrace57]

You fail to back you claim that Jesus is responsible for your sins.

I gave you the Truth, you fail to accept it, thats on you ! A Shepherd is responsible for the Sheeps safety, if the Sheep goes astray its the Shepherds fault, if someone steals him away its the Shepherds fault !