Eternal Security of the Believer !

[felix]

I gave you the Truth, you fail to accept it, thats on you ! A Shepherd is responsible for the Sheeps safety, if the Sheep goes astray its the Shepherds fault, if someone steals him away its the Shepherds fault !

Don't call crap as truth. You haven't given me the verse that Shepherd is responsible for the sheep getting astray.

How about a shepherd responsible for sheep flying away in the clouds? Oh crap!

A sheep will NEVER go astray on it's own because, it is in it's very nature of BEING A SHEEP to always be in the flock and FOLLOW the shepherd.

Jesus certifies the qualifies of the sheep He is referring:
John 10:1-4 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.

Do you want to know how they had gone astray?

• Matt 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
• John 10:12-13 But a hireling, [he who is] not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.

If you want to know the true meaning of what "astray" used in the Bible
G4105 πλανάω planao (plan-ah'-o) v.
1. (properly) to cause to stray from the straight path (i.e. to roam, wander)
2. (figuratively) to lead astray from safety, truth, or moral uprightness
3. (by implication) to deceive, mislead

The maximum English words used to translate planao is, deceived.

How about you stop spreading lies ?

• Rom 11:21-22 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in [His] goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
• John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every [branch] that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
• John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
• Matt 3:10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
• Luke 13:8-9 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize [it.] And if it bears fruit, [well.] But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"

Do you know what? The Shepherd is certainly responsible for kicking the people out, who call themselves as sheep from His flock. He is also certainly responsible for chopping the branches and cutting the trees that doesn't bear fruits. The reason is, it is He who is doing it.

 

[savedbygrace57]

felix

Don't call crap as truth.

Thats your response to God's sacred Truth !

 

[felix]

felix

Thats your response to God's sacred Truth !

Christ is the Truth. It is much evident, you are not believing in a simple truth spoken by Christ in Jn 15:2.
Yes, Eternal security and Faith only is crap! and yes, Don't call crap as Truth.
Start believing in Christ and His Words which are the truth and try not to twist His Words.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ is the Truth. It is much evident, you are not believing in a simple truth spoken by Christ in Jn 15:2.
Yes, Eternal security and Faith only is crap! and yes, Don't call crap as Truth.
Start believing in Christ and His Words which are the truth and try not to twist His Words.

You treat the Truth with so much disdain !

 

[felix]

You treat the Truth with so much disdain !

Yes, because my Truth is Christ and your truth is crap!
You still haven't took the Bible to back your claims nor believing in Christ's own words as spoken in John 15:2.

Yet, you exhalt your crap as if it is a truth.

Eve believed Devil and God said, you shall surely die. Now you are saying to me that God changed His mind to give you eternal life? What a crap! The ONLY man who have Eternal life is Christ. If you have Christ, you have eternal life. If you reject Christ anytime, so does all the promises of inheritance, eternal life and salvation goes with Him. He is Salvation and eternal life. Why don't you understand this simple truth?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Yes, because my Truth is Christ and your truth is crap!
You still haven't took the Bible to back your claims nor believing in Christ's own words as spoken in John 15:2.

Yet, you exhalt your crap as if it is a truth.

Eve believed Devil and God said, you shall surely die. Now you are saying to me that God changed His mind to give you eternal life? What a crap! The ONLY man who have Eternal life is Christ. If you have Christ, you have eternal life. If you reject Christ anytime, so does all the promises of inheritance, eternal life and salvation goes with Him. He is Salvation and eternal life. Why don't you understand this simple truth?

You treat the Truth with so much disdain !

If a Sheep the Shepherd found or saved is again lost, strays from the realm of His protection and safety, its the Sheperds fault who is Responsible ! If you believe one looses their Security by Christ, you are charging Christ with failure !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Comment on Jn 15:2

One of the ways to understand scripture is to never allow one scripture to contradict another or the whole of a Teaching of scripture.

No matter what, we know that Christ is the Shepherd of the Sheep, and that the Shepherd no matter what is held accountable for the Sheep. So if an Sheep in His Care is Lost, its His fault, and its insane to suppose that He would get rid of a Sheep of His for any reason as some suppose that Jn 15:2 suggests.

No, Jesus is still the Shepherd even though in this story of His He is the Vine. Now , every branch in Him, that belongs to Him that is not bearing fruit, He taketh away. The word for taketh away is the greek word airo which also means:

to raise up, elevate, lift up

a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones

b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand

So what Jesus is saying, any branceBranchm that is not bearing fruit, He elevates it, He raises it up, lifts it !

This corresponds with Him finding His Lost Sheep as here Matt 12:11

And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

This corresponds to finding the Sheep and laying hold of it putting it on His Shoulders Lk 15:4-5

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

So Jn 15:2 is not talking about the Vine or the Shepherd getting rid of an authentic branceh or Sheep, branchting it up, causing it to become fruitful !

Christ is responsible also for those that are His to bear fruit !

 

[felix]

Re: Comment on Jn 15:2

One of the ways to understand scripture is to never allow one scripture to contradict another or the whole of a Teaching of scripture.

No matter what, we know that Christ is the Shepherd of the Sheep, and that the Shepherd no matter what is held accountable for the Sheep. So if an Sheep in His Care is Lost, its His fault, and its insane to suppose that He would get rid of a Sheep of His for any reason as some suppose that Jn 15:2 suggests.

No, Jesus is still the Shepherd even though in this story of His He is the Vine. Now , every branch in Him, that belongs to Him that is not bearing fruit, He taketh away. The word for taketh away is the greek word airo which also means:

to raise up, elevate, lift up

a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones

b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand

So what Jesus is saying, any branceBranchm that is not bearing fruit, He elevates it, He raises it up, lifts it !

This corresponds with Him finding His Lost Sheep as here Matt 12:11

And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

This corresponds to finding the Sheep and laying hold of it putting it on His Shoulders Lk 15:4-5

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

So Jn 15:2 is not talking about the Vine or the Shepherd getting rid of an authentic branceh or Sheep, branchting it up, causing it to become fruitful !

Christ is responsible also for those that are His to bear fruit !

Wow! what an excellent deceiver!

So, let's see a few examples:
John 20:13 Then they said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "Because they have LIFTED UP? my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him."
John 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation [Day,] that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be LIFTED UP?.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be LIFTED UP?

Don't try to play on Scriptures by twisting it. It is better not to say anything, than to twist Words of Christ and deceive others.

Let me see how you are going to twist verse 6.
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Do you have any other dictionary to twist?
Matt 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Further more... Christ's words on His believers...
Rev 2:16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Let's see Mr. Paul:
Rom 11:21-22 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in [His] goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Do you have a different meaning for cut off?

 

[felix]

You treat the Truth with so much disdain !

If a Sheep the Shepherd found or saved is again lost, strays from the realm of His protection and safety, its the Sheperds fault who is Responsible ! If you believe one looses their Security by Christ, you are charging Christ with failure !

How about Jesus saying that His sheep will NEVER go astray ?

John 10:4-5 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."

Don't try to call a goat as a sheep. As I said, what you say as truth is absolute crap because, you not only reject Christ's words but also not willing to even listen and understand what He say about His sheep.

Do you still want to challenge Christ ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Shall not walk in Darkness !


Jn 8:12

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Eternal Security of the Believers is indicated by Jesus words here "he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness" and "but shall have the light of life."

Now first of all, who is it that follows Jesus ? Why its His Sheep Jn 10:4-5,27

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And the promise of Christ to such following Him, ensures they will not depart from following Him [ Jn 10:5] And He promises that they have the light of life Prov 4:18

18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. Amen !

 

[felix]

Shall not walk in Darkness !


Jn 8:12

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Eternal Security of the Believers is indicated by Jesus words here "he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness" and "but shall have the light of life."

Now first of all, who is it that follows Jesus ? Why its His Sheep Jn 10:4-5,27

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And the promise of Christ to such following Him, ensures they will not depart from following Him [ Jn 10:5] And He promises that they have the light of life Prov 4:18

18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. Amen !

He also explains what it means to follow Him and how often ...

Luke 9:23 Then He said to [them] all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

if you are required to work daily, then your fake security is oops.

 

[WIP]

Let's try to tone down this discussion please. Let's discuss our differences in good faith with love and understanding, thank you.

 

[savedbygrace57]

He also explains what it means to follow Him and how often ...

Luke 9:23 Then He said to [them] all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

if you are required to work daily, then your fake security is oops.

he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

 

[felix]

Yes, neither did I say no. He abides in us if we believe in Him. This is how we get the current state of Salvation (present tense).

If we have Christ, we inherit all blessings including salvation and eternal life. However, if we reject Him, so does salvation and eternal life goes with Him. Christ is the salvation and eternal life.

So what are you trying to say? "light of life" is not Christ? or is it given separately and Christ is no longer required?

John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

You get this eternal life through Him, not directly.

 

[Deborah13]

I wasn't speaking about an aussie shepherd but an antient middle-eastern shepherd who literally live with the sheep for weeks after leading them to green pastures, like David and Joseph's brothers went to feed their flock.

For differences between sheep and goat, there are tons of pages and you can refer to.
http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-sheep-and-goat/

Also, biblical shepherds doesn't seem to use dogs.
(John 10:3) To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

How many aussie shepherd know their sheep by names?

Here there a shepard's who do live with their sheep for months all through the summer. They have sheep herder camps that they move with the sheep.

The point is that the shepard, Jesus, and us the sheep are one. Do we know His voice? Sometimes, mainly we know His will because we read it in scripture. As sheep do we always follow Him or do we some times get distracted and not pay attention. Does He know our names, you betcha, and the number of hairs on our head!! But we are not always so good and that is were His grace comes in. He loves us and is patient and longsuffering. He calls, He tells us to abide in Him where we will be safe but the fact is we are children and don't always pay attention. This does not make us goats, it makes us man in need of a Savior named Jesus.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes, neither did I say no. He abides in us if we believe in Him. This is how we get the current state of Salvation (present tense).

If we have Christ, we inherit all blessings including salvation and eternal life. However, if we reject Him, so does salvation and eternal life goes with Him. Christ is the salvation and eternal life.

So what are you trying to say? "light of life" is not Christ? or is it given separately and Christ is no longer required?

John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

You get this eternal life through Him, not directly.

This statement I totally agree with. But I don't think rejecting Him is such an easy thing to do. The description of the one who rejects Him in Hebrews 6:4-6 is quite complete. This is a very mature and experienced person. I believe this scripture is speaking of the Jews returning to animal sacrifices. But I do believe it is possible that a gentile could do the same, reject Him. This is a full and complete rejection, a harding of the heart to where it is impossible for them to be brought back.

 

[felix]

This statement I totally agree with. But I don't think rejecting Him is such an easy thing to do. The description of the one who rejects Him in Hebrews 6:4-6 is quite complete. This is a very mature and experienced person. I believe this scripture is speaking of the Jews returning to animal sacrifices. But I do believe it is possible that a gentile could do the same, reject Him. This is a full and complete rejection, a harding of the heart to where it is impossible for them to be brought back.

Rejecting Him doesn't literally means rejecting Him alone. It also includes people who reject His Words too, i.e, not obeying His Words.

(John 12:48) He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

There are also many other verses which says this.. E.g, Christ separating goats and sheeps.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ in you !


Eternal Security is True because Christ comes and Lives in Believers, and He never leaves them or forsakes them Heb 13:5-8

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

It [Christ living in Believers] is one of the results of His Death, that He be within them Jn 17:23,26,20

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

And that this applies to all whom shall believe in Christ through the Apostle's Word Vs 20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

This does include Gentile Believers Col 1:27

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This is the same Hope of Glory for the Apostles Jn 17:22-23

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

And this is Paul's meaning here Gal 2:20

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Christ living in Paul as well as all believers, this is the end result of Christ's Intercession Jn 17:23,26 !

 

[Codger]

28 pages is too much to read, so I only read the first 1/3 of the posts.

God is big on free will He doesn't seem to force anyone to do anything but rather he seems to be reactionary when it comes to human events. The fact that he allows people to choose an existence apart from him to me is the ultimate proof of this.

Paul said that Demos has left him having loved this present world. If you bring this up to a OSAS believer he will say that Demos was never saved in the first place - not true as he was exposed to all of the knowledge and goodness of God. How could one travel with Paul and be ignorant of the Gospel message?

Who do you think the tares are - false Christians. Zechariah prophesied that if the nations (of believers) did not go up to Jerusalem and celebrate the feast of Tabernacles they would receive no rain.

Then you have the words of Jesus himself...

Revelation 3:4-6 (NIV2011)
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.
5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
6 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

How can a person's name be "blotted out" of "The book of Life" if it hadn't been placed there already in the first place? There are people who receive the Gospel and never change, never develop a personal relationship with Jesus, nor have ever repented. They are among the Churches and will be removed at the last day. These are also those who have little fear of God and are the most confident in their salvation.

 

[felix]

Eternal Security is True because Christ comes and Lives in Believers, and He never leaves them or forsakes them

It is true that He will never leave them not forsake them as long as they are in Christ. The same Hebrews author also wrote Heb 10:38-39 clearly describing there is absolutely no eternal security.

(Heb 10:38-39) [Now] [the][just shall live by faith;] [But if] [anyone] [draws back,] [My soul has no pleasure in him."] But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

It is true that He will never leave them, BUT He will destroy them.

(1Cor 3:16-17) Do you not know that you are the temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which [temple] you are.