Eternal Security of the Believer !

[felix]

28 pages is too much to read, so I only read the first 1/3 of the posts.

God is big on free will He doesn't seem to force anyone to do anything but rather he seems to be reactionary when it comes to human events. The fact that he allows people to choose an existence apart from him to me is the ultimate proof of this.

Paul said that Demos has left him having loved this present world. If you bring this up to a OSAS believer he will say that Demos was never saved in the first place - not true as he was exposed to all of the knowledge and goodness of God. How could one travel with Paul and be ignorant of the Gospel message?

Who do you think the tares are - false Christians. Zechariah prophesied that if the nations (of believers) did not go up to Jerusalem and celebrate the feast of Tabernacles they would receive no rain.

Then you have the words of Jesus himself...

Revelation 3:4-6 (NIV2011)
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.
5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
6 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

How can a person's name be "blotted out" of "The book of Life" if it hadn't been placed there already in the first place? There are people who receive the Gospel and never change, never develop a personal relationship with Jesus, nor have ever repented. They are among the Churches and will be removed at the last day. These are also those who have little fear of God and are the most confident in their salvation.

Good post

 

[savedbygrace57]

Departure of the Faith !

Deut 33:3

Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

None in antichrist false religion dishonors and attack the Power of God more than false teachers and brethren who believe and teach a saved person, one of God's Saints can be Lost into perdition. They are of those Paul warns us of that have a mere form of Godliness, but deny the Power thereof 2 Tim 3:5


5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

For it is God's Power, Ability, and Strength that is engaged in behalf of Believers that keeps them God's People, Jesus said so Himself Jn 10:27-29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Jesus here is teaching nothing different than what was taught concerning the Saints of Old in the OT as Per Deut 33:3

Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

Thats saying the same as Jesus is saying of the Sheep Jn 10:29

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The Wise man Solomon once wrote Ecclesiastes 9:1

For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.

The Righteous and the Wise are those whom have been made Righteous and wise by the obedience of Jesus Christ and through the scripture. Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

2 Tim 3:15

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

They are in the Hand of God !

 

[felix]

Departure of the Faith !
:
They are in the Hand of God !

Yes they are in His hands which is why the Holy Spirit who dwells on those who defile their bodies, will destroy them for defiling His Temple.

Sent from Mobile.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Departure of the Faith !2

For it is God's Power, Ability, and Strength that is engaged in behalf of Believers that keeps them God's People, Jesus said so Himself Jn 10:27-29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Here again we have those who Christ calls His Sheep, for He owns and possesses them. They hear His voice, obeys His commands and follows Him, and He says plainly, that in this state [of following Him] a stranger they will no longer follow Jn 10:4-5

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

That promise ensures they will not apostatize as those here 1 Tim 4:1

That word follow in Vs 4 is the greek word akoloutheō:


1) to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him

2) to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple

a) side with his party

So the Sheep of Christ who hears His voice and follows Him, they will never join up with false teachers again, or become followers of their doctrines, which is the complete opposite of those in 1 Tim 4:1 who give heed to seducing spirits and depart from the faith ! Obviously thy were not Christ's Sheep or Christ is found to be lying here in Jn 10:4-5 !

But Christ also proclaims their [ The Sheep] security, they shall never never perish, Christ their merciful Shepherd will never forsake them, and then they are secure because of the GREATNESS of their Father Jn 10:29

29 My Father[And theirs Jn 20:17], which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Now if for any reason at all they come out from under the Security and Greatness of the Fathers Hand, then His Power and Ability to secure them has been compromised and His greatness is reduced to dishonor !

 

[felix]

Departure of the Faith !2

For it is God's Power, Ability, and Strength that is engaged in behalf of Believers that keeps them God's People, Jesus said so Himself Jn 10:27-29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Here again we have those who Christ calls His Sheep, for He owns and possesses them. They hear His voice, obeys His commands and follows Him, and He says plainly, that in this state [of following Him] a stranger they will no longer follow Jn 10:4-5

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

That promise ensures they will not apostatize as those here 1 Tim 4:1

That word follow in Vs 4 is the greek word akoloutheō:


1) to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him

2) to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple

a) side with his party

So the Sheep of Christ who hears His voice and follows Him, they will never join up with false teachers again, or become followers of their doctrines, which is the complete opposite of those in 1 Tim 4:1 who give heed to seducing spirits and depart from the faith ! Obviously thy were not Christ's Sheep or Christ is found to be lying here in Jn 10:4-5 !

But Christ also proclaims their [ The Sheep] security, they shall never never perish, Christ their merciful Shepherd will never forsake them, and then they are secure because of the GREATNESS of their Father Jn 10:29

29 My Father[And theirs Jn 20:17], which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Now if for any reason at all they come out from under the Security and Greatness of the Fathers Hand, then His Power and Ability to secure them has been compromised and His greatness is reduced to dishonor !

True. No one can pluck from the Father except the Father who plucks them and throw away if they don't bear fruit. Have you ever read John 15:1-8?

Sent from Mobile.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Departure of the Faith ! 3

Jn 10:28

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Christ their Good Shepherd is much malign by these scoffers of Truth, for He has also said that not any should pluck His Sheep [ who heard His voice and are now following Him] out of His Hand, coupled with the promise they shall never perish. But these scoffers will say, yes but the sheep on their own will can pluck themselves out of the Hand of their Shepherd and come from out of His Securing Hand, What Blasphemy and disrespectful speech against the Son of God !

If that were true, thats an indictment against the Shepherd who is responsible for them, and their Eternal Well Being,and that at all times, for it is written Ps 121:2-8

2 My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth.

3 He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber.

4 Behold, he that keepeth Israell shall neither slumber nor sleep.

5 The Lord is thy keeper: the Lord is thy shade upon thy right hand.

6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.

7 The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.

8 The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.

This Truth for the People of the Israel of God must be scrapped if at anytime one of these looses their soul. That would mean that the Shepherd did not preserve their soul forever more. It means the Lord failed in preserving them from All Evil.

Which Truth is restated in the NT 2 Thess 3:3

3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

Now if an Sheep wanders out of the Security of the Shepherd, how does this promise mean anything but idle chatter !

The point s this, He that keepeth the feet of the saints, never slumbers nor sleeps Ps 121:4, if this be True, how can a Sheep in His Hand, His Protection wander away from Him and be Lost ? That needs explaining and that denotes imperfection on His Part. By Christ stating what He did in Jn 10:27-30, He is ensuring that all His Sheep get to Heaven [ Eternal Life in its consummation] and if not, its per lack of Power and Ability on behalf of He and His Father, and those who teach lost of Salvation for an saved Sheep, they wickedly attack and discredit the Power of Both the Father and the Son, so they can elevate man over God ! Teaching loss of salvation is the epitome of Blasphemy and Idolatry !

 

[savedbygrace57]

felix

No one can pluck from the Father except the Father who plucks them and throw
away if they don't bear fruit.

Thats false teaching.

Have you ever read John
15:1-8?

Yes, and it does not say that the Father plucks His Sheep that He gave to Christ out of their hand if they do not bear fruit ! You just made that up !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Departure of the Faith ! 4


The scripture teaches that God's Power is a preserving power 1 Pet 1:5,4

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The means by which they are kept through Faith is by the Power of God. The Word Power is the greek word dunamis:


might, power, marvelous works
Definition: (a) physical power, force, might, ability, efficacy, energy, meaning (b) plur: powerful deeds, deeds showing (physical) power, marvelous works.

Its withing the efficacy of the Divine energy that they are Kept through Faith !

To make it plain, Faith depends upon the Power of God. Thats why Jesus prayed to His Father that Peter's Faith fail not, because He knew the Father's ability would keep it from failing !

That word fail Lk 22:32

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

That word means cease, come to an end , to stop.

Thats Christ's Intercessory Prayer for all Believers !

Also, who are the persons Peter says that are kept by the Power of God ?

They are those described in 1 Pet 1:2-3, 23

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

They are those who have been supernaturally begotten again to a Living Hope by the Resurrection of Christ from the dead a Heavenly Inheritance that is likewise being reserved for them, So God keeps them by His Power and Might that they will come into the Enjoyment of the Inheritance being kept for them.

Remember what Jesus will say to these Blessed Ones come Judgment Day Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit [ 1Pet 1:4]the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The Lord as with Paul does this 2 Tim 4:18

18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Now all the True Believers as Paul here have the assurance that they are being kept or preserved unto the Heavenly Kingdom like those of Matt 25:34.

Also their entire and final sanctification is secure 1 Thess 5:23-24

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

All these things are Solely ensured upon the Power and Faithfulness of God !

 

[felix]

felix

Thats false teaching.

Yes, and it does not say that the Father plucks His Sheep that He gave to Christ out of their hand if they do not bear fruit ! You just made that up !

So, what does John 15:1-8 teach for you? Something different only for you?

 

[JCitoL]

there is no promise in/of God that there will be endless life for any soul, that's why it is written that "God is love" viz. that the faith is show of love towards the other humans, because if there was endless life for the souls, then it would not have been said:

Matthew 7:1-12 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge(viz. in the present eternity), ye shall be judged(viz. in the subsequent repeats/circles of the eternity): and with what measure ye mete(viz. in the current eternity), it shall be measured to you again(viz. in the subsequent repeats/circles of the eternity)..... Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you(viz. in the subsequent repeats/circles of the eternity), do ye even so to them(viz. now in this eternity): for this is the law and the prophets."

so herein is the security

Blessings

 

[savedbygrace57]

So, what does John 15:1-8 teach for you? Something different only for you?

I did not bring that here to the debate, so I dont need to study it. You study it yourself and present your findings. All I know is that it does not contradict anything I have posted about Eternal Security of the Saints !

 

[felix]

I did not bring that here to the debate, so I dont need to study it. You study it yourself and present your findings. All I know is that it does not contradict anything I have posted about Eternal Security of the Saints !

Yes, it does contradict. Which is why I posted it here.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; .. (John 15:2)

Let me know who is the branch in Christ and how secure is that branch attached with Christ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

felix

Yes, it does contradict

Not to me it doesnt. The Shepherd is Responsible for the Sheep, The Vine is responsible for the branch. If a branch does not bear fruit its the Vines fault, as it is the Shepherds fault if a Sheep He found gets lost !

 

[felix]

felix

Not to me it doesnt. The Shepherd is Responsible for the Sheep, The Vine is responsible for the branch. If a branch does not bear fruit its the Vines fault, as it is the Shepherds fault if a Sheep He found gets lost !

Not every sheep is Christ's. Only the sheep which know His voice and follow Him. If the sheep follow a stranger, how can it be Christ's?
John 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."
:
John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

If you are not aware of what it means to follow Christ, read:
Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

The Vine is not responsible for the branch. In fact, twice in Scripture, it is warned that the branch will be plucked.
John 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Rom 11:20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

It is God who is responsible for breaking the unfaithful branches from the Vine and Olive tree.

Thinking that it is "Shepherd's fault" or "Vines fault", it your own invention. If it is not, prove it from Scriptures. I had proved from Scriptures, that it is not God's responsibility to safeguard but on the contrary, it is He who will break the branches. How "unbiblical" is "eternal security"?

 

[savedbygrace57]

felix

Not every sheep is Christ's.

Thats Right,not every branch is Christ's !

This thread is not about those who are not Christ's Sheep and who are not His Branches. So you arguing on a wrong premise. Only Christ's Sheep are Eternally Secure ! Christ's Branches are Eternally secure.


If Christ's Sheep stop or cease following Him and become Lost, its His Fault ! He is Responsible for all His Sheep Period !

 

[felix]

felix

Thats Right,not every branch is Christ's !

This thread is not about those who are not Christ's Sheep and who are not His Branches. So you arguing on a wrong premise. Only Christ's Sheep are Eternally Secure ! Christ's Branches are Eternally secure.

I am not speaking about sheep that are not in the flock nor the branch not attached to it.

If Christ's Sheep stop or cease following Him and become Lost, its His Fault ! He is Responsible for all His Sheep Period !

You still haven't shown any scripture verse that proves your point., i.e, as His fault.

I had proved that it is not His fault. On the contrary, He removes the branches that are attached to the vine and breaks the grafted branches.

 

[savedbygrace57]

felix

I am not speaking about sheep that are not in the flock nor the branch not
attached to it.

But I am. Thats who are Eternally Secure, The Sheep of Christ ! They shall never perish !

You still haven't shown any scripture verse that proves your point., i.e, as His
fault.

The Shepherd is Responsible for the Sheep !

He removes the branches that are attached to the vine and breaks the grafted
branches.

Thats Like saying God removes the Sheep that He is the Shepherd of ! God is responsible for the Well Being of the Sheep, so He is responsible for the Well Being of the Branch, if it does not bear fruit it is His Fault. The fruit comes from the connection of the Vine.

Jesus said Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Now it would be stupid for God to break off, disconnect, severe an branch from the the only source it can bear fruit from.

 

[felix]

The Shepherd is Responsible for the Sheep !

You still haven't shown any verse that says that Shepherd is responsible for the sheep. How can you arrive at a conclusion that is not based on the Bible.

If I say, "I am not speaking about sheep that are not in the flock ", it simply means, "I am speaking of the sheep that are in the flock".

(Matthew 10:5) These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
(Matthew 10:6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(Matthew 10:7) And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
(Matthew 10:8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
(Matthew 10:9) Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts,
(Matthew 10:10) nor bag for [your] journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.
(Matthew 10:11) "Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out.
(Matthew 10:12) And when you go into a household, greet it.
(Matthew 10:13) If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you.
(Matthew 10:14) And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.
(Matthew 10:15) Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

Yet again, I am showing you that Christ is not responsible for lost sheep. But you haven't yet shown any verse that His sheep getting lost is His fault.

 

[savedbygrace57]

felix

You still haven't shown any verse that says that Shepherd is responsible for
the sheep

Since you put it like that, you show us a verse that says the Shepherd is not responsible for His Sheep !

Also show us a verse that says the Vine is not responsible for the branches bearing fruit !

God is Glorified by the Branches bearing much Fruit Jn 15:8

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

And its Christ's Responsibility that the branches bear much fruit ! He does that through His Death Jn 12:24

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Now, if anyone has failed, its been you, you have failed to show that Jn 15:1-8 means that one can loose their Salvation. It does not mean that because you say it does !

 

[felix]

felix



Since you put it like that, you show us a verse that says the Shepherd is not responsible for His Sheep !

Also show us a verse that says the Vine is not responsible for the branches bearing fruit !

God is Glorified by the Branches bearing much Fruit Jn 15:8

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

And its Christ's Responsibility that the branches bear much fruit ! He does that through His Death Jn 12:24

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Now, if anyone has failed, its been you, you have failed to show that Jn 15:1-8 means that one can loose their Salvation. It does not mean that because you say it does !

I showed not once, not twice, but thrice that the Shepherd is not responsible but on contrary God removes the branches from vine and He breaks the grafted branch in olive tree.

It is the same God who is glorified by branches bearing much fruit will remove the branches that don't bear fruit - verse John 15:2.

Verse after verse, I had shown that He is not responsible.

Jn 12:24 has nothing to do with Eternal security. In fact, in verse 26 in the same context, He says, (John 12:26) If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him [My] Father will honor.

So, please be Biblical before throwing jargon. As mentioned again and again, you still haven't shown a single verse that He is responsible for lost sheep.

(1 Timothy 4:1) Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
(1 Timothy 4:2) speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
(1 Timothy 4:3) forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Are those departing from Faith who once had the Faith saved? This is utter nonsense and unbiblical.