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Eternal Security of the Believer !

Agape said:
False believers outwardly attach themselves to Christ. They appear to be Christians because they act like Christians.
Click to expand...

But how can false Christians physically attached to Christ? Aren't they false to begin with?
 
felix said:
(1 John 3:23) And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
(1 John 3:24) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
Click to expand...

Yes felix, but it doesn't say He who doesn't keep His commandments will fall out of salvation. No, rather this scripture is part of his teachings as in it's not ok to murder people or steal or worship other gods etc...

Obtaining salvation through Jesus Christ is not speaking about commandments. Romans 10:9 speaks about FAITH! How do you obtain salvation? Salvation and his commandments are two completely different topics.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49311
 
felix said:
(Matthew 7:21) " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Those who don't do the will of the Father in Heaven - walks away.

(Matthew 7:23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Those who practise lawlessness - walk away.


I just posted above and will post again.

Christ speaks about a requirement of righteousness:
(Matthew 5:20) "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Which righteousness? Read on... the next verses.
  • (Matthew 5:21-22) " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
  • (Matthew 5:27-29) " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast [it] from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
  • (Matthew 5:33-34) " Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
  • (Matthew 5:38-39) " You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
  • (Matthew 5:43-45) " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

If you follow all what Christ said, then you have Righteousness of God by His own definition. If not, all that He said as consequence will happen.
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Are you aware that everything you listed in this post is the Law of Moses?
Now I going to challenge you. Try to give me three things that are righteous works that you can do, personally (like in everyday life examples) and I tell you if they are one of the 613 Laws of Moses. I read them all today on a Jewish website, all 613. I can't remember them all of coarse but I've read them before so know a few pretty well. So tell me what are righteous works that you can do like James is talking about.
 
HUMAN BEINGS WILL NEVER BE PERFECT, EVEN AFTER SALVATION.
THAT IS WHY WE ARE SEALED UNTIL REDEMPTION!!! COMMON SENSE PEOPLE.
 
Yes, airo also means "to lift up" but that is not the only definition and the best way to know if it means remove or lift up is to consider the context of John 15.

airó: to raise, take up, lift
Original Word: αἴρω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: airó
Phonetic Spelling: (ah'-ee-ro)
Short Definition: I raise, lift up
Definition: I raise, lift up, take away, remove.
http://biblesuite.com/greek/142.htm

αἴρει (airei) — 8 Occurrences
Matthew 9:16 V-PIA-3S
BIB: ἱματίῳ παλαιῷ αἴρει γὰρ τὸ
NAS: for the patch pulls away from the garment,
KJV: that which is put in to fill it up taketh from
INT: clothing old tears away indeed the

Mark 2:21 V-PIA-3S
BIB: δὲ μή αἴρει τὸ πλήρωμα
NAS: the patch pulls away from it, the new
KJV: that filled it up taketh away from
INT: moreover not tears away the filling up [piece]

Mark 4:15 V-PIA-3S
BIB: Σατανᾶς καὶ αἴρει τὸν λόγον
NAS: comes and takes away the word
KJV: and taketh away the word
INT: Satan and takes away the word

Luke 8:12 V-PIA-3S
BIB: διάβολος καὶ αἴρει τὸν λόγον
NAS: comes and takes away the word
KJV: and taketh away the word
INT: devil and takes away the word

Luke 11:22 V-PIA-3S
BIB: πανοπλίαν αὐτοῦ αἴρει ἐφ' ᾗ
NAS: him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor
KJV: him, he taketh from him
INT: complete armor of him he takes away in which

John 10:18 V-AIA-3S
BIB: οὐδεὶς αἴρει αὐτὴν ἀπ'
NAS: No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay
KJV: No man taketh it from
INT: No one takes it from

John 15:2 V-PIA-3S
BIB: φέρον καρπὸν αἴρει αὐτό καὶ
NAS: fruit, He takes away; and every
KJV: not fruit he taketh away: and every
INT: bearing fruit he takes away it and

John 16:22 V-FIA-3S
BIB: ὑμῶν οὐδεὶς αἴρει ἀφ' ὑμῶν
NAS: and no one [will] take your joy
KJV: joy no man taketh from you.
INT: of you no one takes from you
http://biblesuite.com/greek/airei_142.htm
 
Deborah13 said:
Are you aware that everything you listed in this post is the Law of Moses?
Now I going to challenge you. Try to give me three things that are righteous works that you can do, personally (like in everyday life examples) and I tell you if they are one of the 613 Laws of Moses. I read them all today on a Jewish website, all 613. I can't remember them all of coarse but I've read them before so know a few pretty well. So tell me what are righteous works that you can do like James is talking about.
Click to expand...
You got it right there Deb! The issue here is not a debate about certain sciptures? This issue is always about the law of Moses?
It is IMPOSSIBLE for one who is under the law of Moses to SEE the enternal gospel. God would not allow these people to think that they have eternal security in Christ, because they see their salvation as "earned". Now of course they will deny this over and over but in action and heart they go about to establish their own righteousness. Of course those of us who are in complete dependance upon Christ and His Righteousness, see and know His righteousness is eternal, thus we know that He would have to fail in order for us to be taken from His Hand.
The only hope for those who are in this spiritual blindness as descibed in 2 Cor 3 is to deliver them from the bondage of law, because you could show them 100 scriptures concerning the truth of eternal salvation and they CANNOT SEE IT!

You are blessed my sister for you have eyes to see, and ears to hear.
 
Mitspa said:
You got it right there Deb! The issue here is not a debate about certain sciptures? This issue is always about the law of Moses?
It is IMPOSSIBLE for one who is under the law of Moses to SEE the enternal gospel. God would not allow these people to think that they have eternal security in Christ, because they see their salvation as "earned". Now of course they will deny this over and over but in action and heart they go about to establish their own righteousness. Of course those of us who are in complete dependance upon Christ and His Righteousness, see and know His righteousness is eternal, thus we know that He would have to fail in order for us to be taken from His Hand.
The only hope for those who are in this spiritual blindness as descibed in 2 Cor 3 is to deliver them from the bondage of law, because you could show them 100 scriptures concerning the truth of eternal salvation and they CANNOT SEE IT!

You are blessed my sister for you have eyes to see, and ears to hear.
Click to expand...

You to Mitspa, blessed to be a blessing.
 
In Matt the Lord Jesus Christ is bringing the law to its full measure, because the purpose of the law is to make ALL MEN GUILTY BEFORE GOD. The Lord says if you even lust in your heart you have broken the law! The issue He was dealing with is the same issue we have in the church today? People who bring the law down to a level they think they can keep. It was never given for any man to keep save One. Now the righteousness that EXCEEDS the pharisee is GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS in Christ. No man can keep the law, that was what the Lord was teaching. One cannot just ignore the gospel and Pauls epistles! For in His writtings we see the purpose of the law and we understand what the Lord was saying. Just as the rich young ruler who THOUGHT he had kept the commandments? But he had broken many in his love for his wealth, but he could not see that. He put his wealth above following God, His wealth was his idol and he was covetious. The Lord often did this throughout the gospels, as he was doing in Matt. When He said you must keep every jot and tittle! to be justified by the law, that means EVERY JOT AND TITTLE, not just the parts some want to pick out for religions sake.
 
Mitspa said:
The only hope for those who are in this spiritual blindness as descibed in 2 Cor 3 is to deliver them from the bondage of law, because you could show them 100 scriptures concerning the truth of eternal salvation and they CANNOT SEE IT!
Click to expand...

Well said Mitspa, blessings.
 
urk said:
Yes felix, but it doesn't say He who doesn't keep His commandments will fall out of salvation. No, rather this scripture is part of his teachings as in it's not ok to murder people or steal or worship other gods etc...

Obtaining salvation through Jesus Christ is not speaking about commandments. Romans 10:9 speaks about FAITH! How do you obtain salvation? Salvation and his commandments are two completely different topics.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49311
Click to expand...

Losing Salvation? It is never given to anyone at the first place. It is a future event.

(1 Peter 1:5) who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(Hebrews 9:28) so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Rom 10:9 is speaking about FAITH IN CHRIST, except you don't define what FAITH IN CHRIST is.

This is FAITH IN CHRIST:
(Acts 24:24) And after some days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
(Acts 24:25) Now as he reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and answered, "Go away for now; when I have a convenient time I will call for you."

So, What do you think FAITH is?
(James 2:14) What [does it] profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

(Hebrews 5:9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Christ is NEVER the author of Salvation to those who don't obey Him.

Look what Peter says:
(2 Peter 2:20) For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
(2 Peter 2:21) For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known [it,] to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
(2 Peter 2:22) But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
 
Deborah13 said:
Are you aware that everything you listed in this post is the Law of Moses?
Now I going to challenge you. Try to give me three things that are righteous works that you can do, personally (like in everyday life examples) and I tell you if they are one of the 613 Laws of Moses. I read them all today on a Jewish website, all 613. I can't remember them all of coarse but I've read them before so know a few pretty well. So tell me what are righteous works that you can do like James is talking about.
Click to expand...

If they were on the law of Moses, can you please quote the below teachings of Christ for me from the law?
  • But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
  • But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast [it] from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
  • But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
  • But I tell you not to resist an evil person.
  • But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven;
 
urk said:
HUMAN BEINGS WILL NEVER BE PERFECT, EVEN AFTER SALVATION.
THAT IS WHY WE ARE SEALED UNTIL REDEMPTION!!! COMMON SENSE PEOPLE.
Click to expand...

Common sense doesn't save you from Holy Spirit if you defile your body which is His Temple.

(1 Corinthians 3:17) If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which [temple] you are.
 
felix said:
Losing Salvation? It is never given to anyone at the first place. It is a future event.

(1 Peter 1:5) who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(Hebrews 9:28) so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Rom 10:9 is speaking about FAITH IN CHRIST, except you don't define what FAITH IN CHRIST is.

This is FAITH IN CHRIST:
(Acts 24:24) And after some days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
(Acts 24:25) Now as he reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and answered, "Go away for now; when I have a convenient time I will call for you."

So, What do you think FAITH is?
(James 2:14) What [does it] profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

(Hebrews 5:9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Christ is NEVER the author of Salvation to those who don't obey Him.

Look what Peter says:
(2 Peter 2:20) For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
(2 Peter 2:21) For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known [it,] to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
(2 Peter 2:22) But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
Click to expand...

Mitspa said:
The only hope for those who are in this spiritual blindness as descibed in 2 Cor 3 is to deliver them from the bondage of law, because you could show them 100 scriptures concerning the truth of eternal salvation and they CANNOT SEE IT!
Click to expand...

I'm going to bed, nighty night.
 
Mitspa said:
You got it right there Deb! The issue here is not a debate about certain sciptures? This issue is always about the law of Moses?
It is IMPOSSIBLE for one who is under the law of Moses to SEE the enternal gospel. God would not allow these people to think that they have eternal security in Christ, because they see their salvation as "earned". Now of course they will deny this over and over but in action and heart they go about to establish their own righteousness. Of course those of us who are in complete dependance upon Christ and His Righteousness, see and know His righteousness is eternal, thus we know that He would have to fail in order for us to be taken from His Hand.
The only hope for those who are in this spiritual blindness as descibed in 2 Cor 3 is to deliver them from the bondage of law, because you could show them 100 scriptures concerning the truth of eternal salvation and they CANNOT SEE IT!

You are blessed my sister for you have eyes to see, and ears to hear.
Click to expand...

Who is speaking anything about the law? did I mention anything from the law?

Inspite of Christ warning people to live holy, some are never WILLING TO SEE the truth.
 
Mitspa said:
In Matt the Lord Jesus Christ is bringing the law to its full measure, because the purpose of the law is to make ALL MEN GUILTY BEFORE GOD. The Lord says if you even lust in your heart you have broken the law! The issue He was dealing with is the same issue we have in the church today? People who bring the law down to a level they think they can keep. It was never given for any man to keep save One. Now the righteousness that EXCEEDS the pharisee is GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS in Christ. No man can keep the law, that was what the Lord was teaching. One cannot just ignore the gospel and Pauls epistles! For in His writtings we see the purpose of the law and we understand what the Lord was saying. Just as the rich young ruler who THOUGHT he had kept the commandments? But he had broken many in his love for his wealth, but he could not see that. He put his wealth above following God, His wealth was his idol and he was covetious. The Lord often did this throughout the gospels, as he was doing in Matt. When He said you must keep every jot and tittle! to be justified by the law, that means EVERY JOT AND TITTLE, not just the parts some want to pick out for religions sake.
Click to expand...

You say: The Lord says if you even lust in your heart you have broken the law!

When did He say that? (in your own bible?)

What He said is, you had already committed adultery in your heart - This is a direct teaching of Christ according to the new covenant, what Christ wants.

(Deuteronomy 18:18) 'I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
(Deuteronomy 18:19) 'And it shall be [that] whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require [it] of him.

You ignoring Christ's teachings just like that? The Father will require anyone who does not hear Him.
 
felix said:
I am not speaking about self righteousness which is by the law. I am speaking about the righteousness required by Christ.

Christ speaks about a requirement of righteousness:
(Matthew 5:20) "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Which righteousness? Read on... the next verses.
  • (Matthew 5:21-22) " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
  • (Matthew 5:27-29) " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast [it] from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
  • (Matthew 5:33-34) " Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
  • (Matthew 5:38-39) " You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
  • (Matthew 5:43-45) " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

if you follow all what Christ said, then you have Righteousness of God by His own definition.
Click to expand...

The first two you know are covered in the big 10. Jesus was covering every jot and tittle of His own to say that you can't be good enough.
It's not about you it's all about Him. If you can do it, you don't need Him. Right?

Thou shall not murder.
Thou shall not commit adultry.
Thou shall not swear falsely. Lev 19:12
Do not take revenge. Lev 19:8
Love all human being that are of the convenant Lev 19:18

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
 
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