Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth

[Rick W]

OK, so you're saying if you sin without recognizing it as such or in any way unaware and you don't repent (how could you if you didn't know in the first place that you had sinned) you then become unrighteous and lose your salvation.

Is this correct?

 

[Good News Brown]

Truth; I have met numerous people that 'at one time' were GUNG HO in the church and in their beliefs only to have 'something happen' in their lives and most certainly 'fall away'.

Now, the OSAS crowd would insist that these 'were NOT saved to begin with'. Then this leads to an endless discussion of WHO IS AND WHO ISN'T whereas NO ONE is able to offer ANY proof whatsoever except to say: "I KNOW that I am".

The evidence offered up in scripture and my OWN personal experience offers that one MOST DEFINITELY CAN 'fall away'. The term 'fall away' itself is pure indication that one IS able to LOSE what has been offered.

That some wish to BELIEVE that once they 'come to Christ' they are penned into the Book of LIfe has NO bearing on the truth. For IF this is TRUTH, then there is an AWFULLY Big eraser up there and a bunch of that smelly curled up rubber stuff thats 'left over' once one is used.

I have to say that I'm confused. What do you mean this person fell away? In other words, did this person claim that he/she no longer believes (went into an Eastern Religion, became an atheist, etc.), or did this person go into a sinful lifestyle without any real proclamation of what that person now believes? For instance, if a professed believer had a drug or alcohol addiction, and left the church, but still claimed a belief in Jesus Christ, did this person fall away? This is where I'm getting a bit confused because between yourself, XTruth, and Francesdales, the rendition of conditional security seems to be fluctuating from one who no longer believes, to one who has an un-confessed sin.

 

[Good News Brown]

We have numerous parables and words offered OUTRIGHT, (words offered TO; them that BELIEVE), that one IS able to 'fall away' from what they first came to believe and worship. This being the case, OSAS is a 'man-made' concept that has NEVER been offered up in Word or Epistle. Created by men and sold to men, but at WHAT cost to those that buy it?

Blessings,

MEC

I often see comments made similar to your last one. I'm assuming this means Born Again believers will get comfortable and sin at will. In other words, many will rationalize that it's okay to have extra marital affairs, getting drunk on the weekends, etc. Or, to add to the confusing element, get too comfortable and fall away from faith? Not believe anymore? In other words, one becomes too secure of a believer because they know that if they decide to dabble in Buddhism next week, they don't have to worry about losing their salvation. Or if they decide to worship a Golden Calf, they don't have to worry.

Could there be a flip-side. Is it possible that some believers who believe strongly in conditional security, thus purpose never to depart the faith, and spend a number of evenings acting out a particular sin, reasoning that all they need to do is survive the evening and repent the next day? What if that same person was warned by one who adheres to unconditional security that his/her unworthy lifestyle will eventually lead to an illness, early physical death, or a number of severe crises'; and that person turned from that sin?

 

[MarkT]

You are taking the analogy way too far.

One is not merely "washed" in baptism. We receive the HOLY SPIRIT and are regenerated, born from above. We are not just hosed off and are the same creature as before. The "remain a clean pig" idea totally ignores Scripture's assurance that those who receive the Spirit are a new creation.

Thus, upon being saved, we are no longer swines...

This is Christianity 101. Didn't you know that?

'Swine' is a spiritual term francis, like - dog, serpent, goat, sheep, son.

Christianity 101, indeed! How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple? How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge?

 

[francisdesales]

You are taking the analogy way too far.

One is not merely "washed" in baptism. We receive the HOLY SPIRIT and are regenerated, born from above. We are not just hosed off and are the same creature as before. The "remain a clean pig" idea totally ignores Scripture's assurance that those who receive the Spirit are a new creation.

Thus, upon being saved, we are no longer swines...

'Swine' is a spiritual term francis, like - dog, serpent, goat, sheep, son.

Jeez. Is that the argument OSAS people are reduced to offering??? Hey, you're the one talking about a clean pig...

Weren't you aware that people who are "born from above" are new creations? We are only considered "swine" when we wallow in the filth of sin. Whether it occurs before we are illuminated or after, returning to that life of filth, it doesn't matter. Such a person is unsaved now. All that time of righteousness counts for nothing now.

That is why we are exhorted to persevere.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I have to say that I'm confused. What do you mean this person fell away? In other words, did this person claim that he/she no longer believes (went into an Eastern Religion, became an atheist, etc.), or did this person go into a sinful lifestyle without any real proclamation of what that person now believes? For instance, if a professed believer had a drug or alcohol addiction, and left the church, but still claimed a belief in Jesus Christ, did this person fall away? This is where I'm getting a bit confused because between yourself, XTruth, and Francesdales, the rendition of conditional security seems to be fluctuating from one who no longer believes, to one who has an un-confessed sin.

An unknown sin that is unconfessed is not cause for God to consider our relationship severed. One must knowingly and willingly leave God, as the prodigal son did in Luke 15.

It is difficult to say where the "point" of unrighteousness is for an individual, much less ourselves, where one casts himself out of the Kingdom. BECAUSE that "line" is fuzzy, we are urged to persevere, rather than doing "just enough" to be on the "right side". A person who continues to persevere, at whatever imperfect level, has not cast himself out yet.

Regarding your question, formally declaring yourself outside of Christ's visible Church would be a strong indication by some of separating yourself from God. However, even that is not certain (to me, a Catholic), as God judges us based upon our actions, not our affiliation. We are to follow our conscience and if our conscience tells us God is found elsewhere (even if wrong), has the person truly and completely left God? He who loves has Christ, has life.

It is a difficult question. But to answer it, the first person is merely ignorant and still may be in Christ if he loves; the later person in a sinful way of life who claims to follow Christ is a liar. No liar as such will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

We are dealing with a familial relationship, not a legal one. We are adoptive sons of God by grace. It will take more than an unknown sin to remove ourselves from God's love.


Regards

 

[Solo]

....and in all of your posts you can't answer what it means to be born again, and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.

I hadn't realized you were asking me that so that I am expected to "answer what it means to be born again".

Being born again, saved, means "escaping the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ". It means being released from the entanglement of sin. We are given a conditional promise to inherit eternal life by faith working in love...

Just as those charecters from 2 Peter 2. They also had escaped the pollutions of the world, since there is NO OTHER WAY TO DO SO.

I see you have not given me another way to do escape sin. Only by the Holy Spirit, God's abiding presence, can we escape sin. This refers to "being saved", being saved from condemnation and the slavery of sin.

I suppose you have read Romans a few times? No more need to detail this, I presume.

Two Peter 2 clearly points out saved men falling away. So does the parable of the sower and the seed, among many other places.

May God be glorified and the Lord Jesus Christ be edified as the Spirit of Life teaches us all truth in His wisdom and understanding. And may all of man's wisdom dry up and blow away in the presence of the Holy Spirit. In the precious and blessed name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Yes. Read and heed.

Regards

That is not what being born again is. I will be busy all weekend, so will be back next week with more concerning being born again.

 

[MarkT]

Are unsaved people referred to as swine or not, Mark? Aren't we all unsaved before coming to Christ? I was a swine once...many times actually. You were a swine, also. Are you a swine now?

No. God is my Father. I'm a son of the Most High. I was, and I am, and I always will be his son.

Jeez. Is that the argument OSAS people are reduced to offering??? Hey, you're the one talking about a clean pig...

Weren't you aware that people who are "born from above" are new creations? We are only considered "swine" when we wallow in the filth of sin. Whether it occurs before we are illuminated or after, returning to that life of filth, it doesn't matter. Such a person is unsaved now. All that time of righteousness counts for nothing now.

That is why we are exhorted to persevere.

No. I'm trying to be impartial francis. Like I said, I'm not a Calvinist.

I'd like to ask you, is Peter talking about you? - because you're certainly indentifying yourself with the sow.

What you should see is that the sow is an irrational animal that loves mud. And washing a sow doesn't do anything to change that. That's what you should see. You can wash a sow, but because it is a sow, it will go out there and roll in the mud again. And there's nothing you can do about it. That's what Peter is saying. He said, 'But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed, reviling in matters of which they are ignorant, will be destroyed in the same destruction with them.' 2 Peter 2:12. , meaning with the men of Sodom.

Peter isn't talking about saved or unsaved Christians. There's nothing in there about being saved and returning to an unsaved condition or whatever the RCC is teaching you. Peter calls them what they are. In spiritual terms they are the devil's seed; the sons of the evil one, false prophets. God gives them over to their passions.

And you're jumping around - unsaved, born again, unsaved; one minute you're a new creation, and the next minute you're an animal.

 

[XTruth]

You are taking the analogy way too far.

One is not merely "washed" in baptism. We receive the HOLY SPIRIT and are regenerated, born from above. We are not just hosed off and are the same creature as before. The "remain a clean pig" idea totally ignores Scripture's assurance that those who receive the Spirit are a new creation.

Thus, upon being saved, we are no longer swines...

This is Christianity 101. Didn't you know that?

'Swine' is a spiritual term francis, like - dog, serpent, goat, sheep, son.

Christianity 101, indeed! How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple? How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge?

I give up Mark. How long?

 

[XTruth]

OK, so you're saying if you sin without recognizing it as such or in any way unaware and you don't repent (how could you if you didn't know in the first place that you had sinned) you then become unrighteous and lose your salvation.

Is this correct?

Rick, buddy, I didn't really say a thing. I just quoted some Scripture. You are the one who has drawn the conclusion you just posted.

This was that Scripture........

Eze.18: 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Rom.8:12-13
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1 Cor.3:16-17
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

 

[XTruth]

Truth; I have met numerous people that 'at one time' were GUNG HO in the church and in their beliefs only to have 'something happen' in their lives and most certainly 'fall away'.

Now, the OSAS crowd would insist that these 'were NOT saved to begin with'. Then this leads to an endless discussion of WHO IS AND WHO ISN'T whereas NO ONE is able to offer ANY proof whatsoever except to say: "I KNOW that I am".

The evidence offered up in scripture and my OWN personal experience offers that one MOST DEFINITELY CAN 'fall away'. The term 'fall away' itself is pure indication that one IS able to LOSE what has been offered.

That some wish to BELIEVE that once they 'come to Christ' they are penned into the Book of LIfe has NO bearing on the truth. For IF this is TRUTH, then there is an AWFULLY Big eraser up there and a bunch of that smelly curled up rubber stuff thats 'left over' once one is used.

I have to say that I'm confused. What do you mean this person fell away? In other words, did this person claim that he/she no longer believes (went into an Eastern Religion, became an atheist, etc.), or did this person go into a sinful lifestyle without any real proclamation of what that person now believes? For instance, if a professed believer had a drug or alcohol addiction, and left the church, but still claimed a belief in Jesus Christ, did this person fall away? This is where I'm getting a bit confused because between yourself, XTruth, and Francesdales, the rendition of conditional security seems to be fluctuating from one who no longer believes, to one who has an un-confessed sin.

Both are true...unconfessed sin and unbelief. Whether you deny Jesus w/ your words, actions, thoughts...makes no difference, in all of these examples we deny Christ. Anytime we put our own authority above His, we have denied Him. Sin is such a denial.

 

[XTruth]

Are unsaved people referred to as swine or not, Mark? Aren't we all unsaved before coming to Christ? I was a swine once...many times actually. You were a swine, also. Are you a swine now?

No. God is my Father. I'm a son of the Most High. I was, and I am, and I always will be his son.

.

Yes, you nor anyone else ever did challenge many things I've written on concerning this. But now you have claimed that since you are a son of God, that you are guaranteed to always be a son of God. Sonship is no guarantee of eternal life. Would you like to challenge this claim instead of me just posting and assuming you read it?

By the way, you didn't come close to getting on the road that answered my question of: were you ever a swine?

 

[Rick W]

OK, so you're saying if you sin without recognizing it as such or in any way unaware and you don't repent (how could you if you didn't know in the first place that you had sinned) you then become unrighteous and lose your salvation.

Is this correct?

Rick, buddy, I didn't really say a thing. I just quoted some Scripture. You are the one who has drawn the conclusion you just posted.

This was that Scripture........

Eze.18: 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Rom.8:12-13
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1 Cor.3:16-17
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

To eliminate the variable of interpretation suggested in differing doctrinal beliefs could you answer the question in your own words please.

OK, so you're saying if you sin without recognizing it as such or in any way unaware and you don't repent (how could you if you didn't know in the first place that you had sinned) you then become unrighteous and lose your salvation.

Is this correct?

 

[XTruth]

[quote="Rick W":3udlj0hh]OK, so you're saying if you sin without recognizing it as such or in any way unaware and you don't repent (how could you if you didn't know in the first place that you had sinned) you then become unrighteous and lose your salvation.

Is this correct?

Rick, buddy, I didn't really say a thing. I just quoted some Scripture. You are the one who has drawn the conclusion you just posted.

This was that Scripture........

Eze.18: 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Rom.8:12-13
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1 Cor.3:16-17
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

To eliminate the variable of interpretation suggested in differing doctrinal beliefs could you answer the question in your own words please.

OK, so you're saying if you sin without recognizing it as such or in any way unaware and you don't repent (how could you if you didn't know in the first place that you had sinned) you then become unrighteous and lose your salvation.

Is this correct?

[/quote:3udlj0hh] Well, I don't understand how anyone could come to any other determination, from these verses alone, than the one you came to. And I know for a fact that you came to this conclusion, not b/c you believe it, but b/c I've already stated this answer many times on my own accord. The answer is YES. When else is one guilty of breaking God's laws than when he transgresses them, which is sin (1 Jn.3:4). Do you think a Christian cannot fall back into condemnation or something?

 

[Vic C.]

I agree Rick, if one is going to quote scripture that suggests varying understandings and conclusions, one should be able to embellish a bit so we can understand their position. In other words, it should be explained in their own words, like Jesus explained parables to His disciples.

The question Rick poses was addressed by Jesus in His Sermon on the Mount. A prime example was His explanation of "Thou shall not kill". But Jesus just scratches the surface of how we sin and don't even know it. To take the example of unrepented sin to the extreme by using His example, a dream in which we do, say or think something unholy, will be counted against us if we don't repent afterwards.

The problem? We don't always remember our dreams. That is the point. Colossians 2 is pretty self explanatory:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

All tresspasses. The penalty for them was nailed to the Cross.

Strive to live a Godly life, but don't beat yourself up over unrepented sin. Wallowing over unpreneted sin is the devil's playground. If you say only sins in the past are forgiven, remember, time is linear. The moment after you sin, that sin is in the past.

Lets not fall into the trap of labeling this as a license to sin; it is not.

 

[Good News Brown]

To take the example of unrepented sin to the extreme by using His example, a dream in which we do, say or think something unholy, will be counted against us if we don't repent afterwards.

The problem? We don't always remember our dreams.

I agree. I remember discussing, if I may be blunt, the issue of wet dreams with a person who believed in conditional security. His stand point was that a person who has one, has not committed a sin. I maintain that when one does have one, it is in fact sin. Somewhat ironically, in some cases, one who believes in eternal security can have stricter view point on sin. When one maintains that the notion of someone having a wet dream is sinning is unfair; my personal general response to that is, thank God for the Blood of Jesus.

In that particular case, as I feel is fairly common, the person is forced to develop his/her own interpretation of what sin is to maintain the notion that they are outside of sin's boundaries.

 

[XTruth]

I agree Rick, if one is going to quote scripture that suggests varying understandings and conclusions, one should be able to embellish a bit so we can understand their position. In other words, it should be explained in their own words, like Jesus explained parables to His disciples.

The question Rick poses was addressed by Jesus in His Sermon on the Mount. A prime example was His explanation of "Thou shall not kill". But Jesus just scratches the surface of how we sin and don't even know it. To take the example of unrepented sin to the extreme by using His example, a dream in which we do, say or think something unholy, will be counted against us if we don't repent afterwards.

Riiighhhttttt.......
I do understand that you can't merely answer biblical questions by posting Scripture. I do understand many Scriptures are twisted into doctrines from devils and taught by seducing evil spirits. I'm sorry Vic, just couldn't think of another way to answer Rick in my own words. The answer to the question of if I believe sin, whether accidental or intended or otherwise, makes one guilty of transgressing God's laws, therefore becoming unrighteous and losing your salvation, since it is the guilt of sin we are to be saved from, since sin is the very reason God must judgeg who He loves, the TRUTH YOU WANT, BUT THE TRUTH YOU WON'T GET, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH.

Just kidding, the answer is yes. Salvation is lost by sin. That is why we all fell under condemnation in the first place, even though we were made to be righteous, right?

The problem? We don't always remember our dreams. That is the point. Colossians 2 is pretty self explanatory:

Oh, so I am controlling those dreams where my teeth are falling out, or the ones where I can't keep up at work. We're suppose to take our thoughts captive. Please teach me how to control my dreams...there are some dreams I wish I could awake from, but can't. Maybe if I learned how to control what the dreams are, I wouldn't have to try and wake up. Thanks

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

All tresspasses. The penalty for them was nailed to the Cross.

Sooooo, is everyone forgiven from their sins? And if this verse is only for Christians, then wouldn't common sense tell you that we are only pardoned from crimes we've actually committed? And if there are some verses that are only meant to be directed toward the unbeliever, as opposed to the Christian, then how do you interpret who the intended audience is? For instance, it appears that this same chapter (Col.2), verse 4 and 8 make it clear that Christians can be spoiled and beguiled (deceived) us by human philosophy and worthless teachings that are not true. Looks like salvation of Christians can be lost. Even in this debate, what if I was not raised as a conditional security believer, but learned it later, after many years of being born again? Was my salvation lost in your eyes b/c you believe I have fallen into deceit? No, b/c you believe OSAS. Guess I was never really saved. Guess God lied, b/c I did repent and believe. Did I miss a step in being born again (sorry Vic, I forgot I was attaching this to your quotes. These are questions for any who believe in OSAS).

Strive to live a Godly life, but don't beat yourself up over unrepented sin. Wallowing over unpreneted sin is the devil's playground. If you say only sins in the past are forgiven, remember, time is linear. The moment after you sin, that sin is in the past.

I don't beat myself up for past sin. If I fall, then I repent and move on, but this doesn't mean you shouldn'y worry about not repenting. Kinda sounds like you're teetering to that view...not sure exactly. Then I get to your linear time of sin theory and it is completely unbiblical. Why did Jesus tell the churches to repent if they had already done it before? Does Jesus not understand that time is linear?

Lets not fall into the trap of labeling this as a license to sin; it is not.

I don't remember anyone focusing on that too much. I know I'm not under the assumption that any who believe the OSAS doctrine in this thread are using this belief as a license to sin. Nevertheless, sin does make one guilty. This is even true when breaking civil laws; how much more should we obey the One who paid for our innocents w/ His life? The government merely declares us innocent at birth...not God.

 

[XTruth]

[quote="Vic C.":3dx8u5yp] To take the example of unrepented sin to the extreme by using His example, a dream in which we do, say or think something unholy, will be counted against us if we don't repent afterwards.

The problem? We don't always remember our dreams.

I agree. I remember discussing, if I may be blunt, the issue of wet dreams with a person who believed in conditional security. His stand point was that a person who has one, has not committed a sin. I maintain that when one does have one, it is in fact sin. Somewhat ironically, in some cases, one who believes in eternal security can have stricter view point on sin. When one maintains that the notion of someone having a wet dream is sinning is unfair; my personal general response to that is, thank God for the Blood of Jesus.

In that particular case, as I feel is fairly common, the person is forced to develop his/her own interpretation of what sin is to maintain the notion that they are outside of sin's boundaries.[/quote:3dx8u5yp]kinda ridiculous. Consciously thinking about killing someone b/c you hate them at that moment is sin (1 Jn.3:14-15). I have had many dreams in my life where I kill someone. I am not conciously contemplating that. I wake up and wonder why I dreamed that. There was no hate there, or meditated thoughts, or even a real murder, not by real hate, real blood shed, or even a conscious thought. Are you all experts in dreams, b/c I would really like to be able to take my dreams captive.

 

[Good News Brown]

[quote="Vic C.":bxriibmz] To take the example of unrepented sin to the extreme by using His example, a dream in which we do, say or think something unholy, will be counted against us if we don't repent afterwards.

The problem? We don't always remember our dreams.

I agree. I remember discussing, if I may be blunt, the issue of wet dreams with a person who believed in conditional security. His stand point was that a person who has one, has not committed a sin. I maintain that when one does have one, it is in fact sin. Somewhat ironically, in some cases, one who believes in eternal security can have stricter view point on sin. When one maintains that the notion of someone having a wet dream is sinning is unfair; my personal general response to that is, thank God for the Blood of Jesus.

In that particular case, as I feel is fairly common, the person is forced to develop his/her own interpretation of what sin is to maintain the notion that they are outside of sin's boundaries.

kinda ridiculous. Consciously thinking about killing someone b/c you hate them at that moment is sin (1 Jn.3:14-15). I have had many dreams in my life where I kill someone. I am not conciously contemplating that. I wake up and wonder why I dreamed that. There was no hate there, or meditated thoughts, or even a real murder, not by real hate, real blood shed, or even a conscious thought. Are you all experts in dreams, b/c I would really like to be able to take my dreams captive.[/quote:bxriibmz]
I'm not an expert on dreams, and I also realize that irregardless of one's viewpoint of conditional/eternal security salvation, viewpoints will differ on this. However, why would someone have a lustful or violent dream in the first place? How would one know that the dream itself wasn't caused, or enforced by something that occurred while awake (seeing a beautiful woman, being angry with someone, etc.)? We also have to consider that at times these types of dreams occur while semi-awake to where they could theoretically be stopped.

I also do not believe that Jesus ever sinned, even while asleep. I think that there's a good reason for this.

 

[Good News Brown]

Oh, so I am controlling those dreams where my teeth are falling out, or the ones where I can't keep up at work. We're suppose to take our thoughts captive. Please teach me how to control my dreams...there are some dreams I wish I could awake from, but can't. Maybe if I learned how to control what the dreams are, I wouldn't have to try and wake up. Thanks

Well, I think one of the points made here is that to maintain an absolute sinless perfection is an extremely tall order. I think we can see this in some of the letters to some of the churches in Revelations who were actually Godly people by human standards. Perhaps sinful dreams would not cause one to receive a prophetic warning, but it doesn't mean they are not sins that need to be covered. Not that we shouldn't strive for perfection. I think the challenge could very well be to strive for perfection while on Earth, yet always realize that we will never be perfect (sinless) while on Earth.