Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth

[XTruth]

I also do not believe that Jesus ever sinned, even while asleep. I think that there's a good reason for this.

So, what do you believe about being like Jesus and living the way He did, in complete obedience to God's laws?

 

[XTruth]

[quote="Vic C.":nda8v71m]

Oh, so I am controlling those dreams where my teeth are falling out, or the ones where I can't keep up at work. We're suppose to take our thoughts captive. Please teach me how to control my dreams...there are some dreams I wish I could awake from, but can't. Maybe if I learned how to control what the dreams are, I wouldn't have to try and wake up. Thanks

Well, I think one of the points made here is that to maintain an absolute sinless perfection is an extremely tall order. I think we can see this in some of the letters to some of the churches in Revelations who were actually Godly people by human standards. Perhaps sinful dreams would not cause one to receive a prophetic warning, but it doesn't mean they are not sins that need to be covered. Not that we shouldn't strive for perfection. I think the challenge could very well be to strive for perfection while on Earth, yet always realize that we will never be perfect (sinless) while on Earth.[/quote:nda8v71m]I see you throwing around the word strive a lot. Where is your authority for inserting this word?
Also, are you saying that we are not sinless by the blood of Christ?

 

[Good News Brown]

I also do not believe that Jesus ever sinned, even while asleep. I think that there's a good reason for this.

So, what do you believe about being like Jesus and living the way He did, in complete obedience to God's laws?

I believe that we are to do this.

 

[Good News Brown]

I see you throwing around the word strive a lot. Where is your authority for inserting this word?
Also, are you saying that we are not sinless by the blood of Christ?

I don't think using the word strive is too much to worry about. It's merely a word I chose. As far as being perfect, let's take a look at Job. The Bible states that he was perfect. In context, this doesn't mean sinless. Complete is what the Hebrew term states. If Job were sinless, would God have spoken to him in the corrective fashion that he did? Could Job have died for our sins? No. I don't think so. When referencing Matthew 5:48, the Greek meaning is also complete.

Let's say that like Job, the Apostle reached a level of completeness when he stated that he had run the course and kept the faith. I don't necessarily know if he reached this level, but it could very well be the case. Could Paul have died for our sins at that time? How about the thief on the cross. In a short time, he may very well have obtained a level of completeness like Job. He certainly had no entanglements that most believers have to deal with. Could he have died for our sins while he was on the cross?

As far as us being sinless by the Blood of Christ, that's exactly why a genuine believer won't be judged eternally. Not because of works, but by the blood of Christ

 

[Rick W]

Should I sin? Of course not.
Should I ask forgiveness when I do? Always.
Should I ask forgiveness when I don't? Sure thing.

" And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Christ is NOT teaching self-mutilation here. Even your thoughts of sin are sinful and you are worthy of condemnation. There is no way you can control your thoughts.
Dreams are your thoughts, no way around that for if one was perfect those thoughts would never come to mind.

We cannot trust in ourselves but we can trust in Christ. That is the whole point, the essence of the message, the Good News. We are free from such an obligation of performance. We don't have the strength, but He does. Our salvation is not of ourselves for nothing we can do will make us worthy. We must get our eyes off of ourselves and onto Him. Within there is no salvation for salvation is at the hand and mercy of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We cannot take credit for our salvation, we cannot rob the Lord of His glory.

 

[Cornelius]

This chapter is speaking about Christians who are lost again and that goes to eternal damnation.

2Pe 2:17 These are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved.
2Pe 2:18 For, uttering great swelling words of vanity, they entice in the lusts of the flesh, by lasciviousness, those who are just escaping from them that live in error;
2Pe 2:19 promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he also brought into bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,(Christians ) they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. (Not walking in the Word anymore)
2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,(Better never to have become a Christian ) than, after knowing it,(Christianity ) to turn back from the holy commandment (The Word of God) delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.

2Pe 2:12 But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I also will forget thy children. (God rejects His people, because of a lack of knowledge. God is the same , yesterday , today and forever.)

2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as the hire of wrong-doing; men that count it pleasure to revel in the day-time, spots and blemishes, revelling in their deceivings while they feast with you; (They feast with us, they are Christians )

Read the whole of 2 Peter 2. Its just about Christians, because God has nothing like this to say about people who are NOT His. He is speaking to believers.

 

[Cornelius]

Its just a sad fact, that not all who call themselves Christians will go to heaven.

That is why God gives the parable of the wheat and the tares. Tares LOOK like wheat , but you cannot eat it. In the parable, the tares are growing WITH the wheat (in the Kingdom) but in the end, they are gathered and burned.
This is not talking about the lost souls of the world, who never grew in the Kingdom. This is speaking of "look-a-like" Christians..

So in effect, the elect will not be lost. Cannot be lost, if they are indeed elect. But that is because they have run the race to its end. Only those who endure to the END shall be ultimately saved.

Mat 10:22 ............ but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Those who do not endure to the end in their faith, shall not be saved.

 

[Joe67]

Its just a sad fact, that not all who call themselves Christians will go to heaven.

That is why God gives the parable of the wheat and the tares. Tares LOOK like wheat , but you cannot eat it. In the parable, the tares are growing WITH the wheat (in the Kingdom) but in the end, they are gathered and burned.
This is not talking about the lost souls of the world, who never grew in the Kingdom. This is speaking of "look-a-like" Christians..

So in effect, the elect will not be lost. Cannot be lost, if they are indeed elect. But that is because they have run the race to its end. Only those who endure to the END shall be ultimately saved.

Mat 10:22 ............ but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Those who do not endure to the end in their faith, shall not be saved.

Cornelius,

Conditionalism is in the holy place of the kingdom of God. It is like 12 loaves of shewbread on a gold covered table.

OSAS is also in the holy place of the kingdom of God. It is like the burning of olive oil in a 7 branched candlestick.

Both "places" are symbolic of the revelation in understanding of the things previously symbolized by the holy Spirit concerning the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow.

Access to the most holy place (the secret place of the most high God) is only given through the suffering of Jesus being conformed on us, which is symbolized by the apothecary beaten very small and burnt on the golden altar so only a glowing coal remains; a brand plucked from the burnings. This gift of suffering in the image of Jesus is only given to those who have been called and then chosen for the priestly ministry under Jesus. Many are called to the common salvation, but few are chosen for the eternal priesthood under Jesus, the high priest. The most holy place of the most high God is not entered without blood and while being covered with a cloud of incense, and he must be wearing the white linen of he common priest. All of these symbolize the truth of God as it is in Jesus of Nazareth.

When this revelation comes, it cannot be written in a book but the testator will testify again before many peoples, nations, tongues and rulers. The testator will have sweetness in his mouth but bitterness in his belly.

Joe

 

[XTruth]

Its just a sad fact, that not all who call themselves Christians will go to heaven.

That is why God gives the parable of the wheat and the tares. Tares LOOK like wheat , but you cannot eat it. In the parable, the tares are growing WITH the wheat (in the Kingdom) but in the end, they are gathered and burned.
This is not talking about the lost souls of the world, who never grew in the Kingdom. This is speaking of "look-a-like" Christians..

So in effect, the elect will not be lost. Cannot be lost, if they are indeed elect. But that is because they have run the race to its end. Only those who endure to the END shall be ultimately saved.

Mat 10:22 ............ but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Those who do not endure to the end in their faith, shall not be saved.

Cornelius,

Conditionalism is in the holy place of the kingdom of God. It is like 12 loaves of shewbread on a gold covered table.

OSAS is also in the holy place of the kingdom of God. It is like the burning of olive oil in a 7 branched candlestick.

Both "places" are symbolic of the revelation in understanding of the things previously symbolized by the holy Spirit concerning the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow.

Access to the most holy place (the secret place of the most high God) is only given through the suffering of Jesus being conformed on us, which is symbolized by the apothecary beaten very small and burnt on the golden altar so only a glowing coal remains; a brand plucked from the burnings. This gift of suffering in the image of Jesus is only given to those who have been called and then chosen for the priestly ministry under Jesus. Many are called to the common salvation, but few are chosen for the eternal priesthood under Jesus, the high priest. The most holy place of the most high God is not entered without blood and while being covered with a cloud of incense, and he must be wearing the white linen of he common priest. All of these symbolize the truth of God as it is in Jesus of Nazareth.

When this revelation comes, it cannot be written in a book but the testator will testify again before many peoples, nations, tongues and rulers. The testator will have sweetness in his mouth but bitterness in his belly.

Joe

So, are you talking about new revelation, because I don't see any verses referenced to what you just composed. Can you back up the claim that two beliefs that totally contradict eachother are both in the holy place and accepted and approved by God?

 

[XTruth]

[quote="Good News Brown":17ymumjx]

I also do not believe that Jesus ever sinned, even while asleep. I think that there's a good reason for this.

So, what do you believe about being like Jesus and living the way He did, in complete obedience to God's laws?

I believe that we are to do this.[/quote:17ymumjx]
Do you believe we are to do this or that we are to strive for this, which is it?

[quote="GoodNewsBrownI don't think using the word strive is too much to worry about. It's merely a word I chose. [/quote]

I believe using the word "strive" is something to worry about. It totally changes the meaning of Scripture.
-God told Abraham to be perfected, not strive for it (Gen.17:1).
-God told Israel to be perfect, not strive for it (Dt.18:13).
-God told Solomon to be perfect, not strive for it (1 Ki.8:61).
-Solomon and Jeroboam were not perfect with God, as they were commanded to be (1 Ki.11:4; 15:3). If it is impossible to be perfect in God's eyes, then why call out these 2 kings?
-Jesus told Christians to be perfect, as Gods is perfect (Mat.5:48).
-Jesus told the rich man to be perfect, and even told him how (Mat.19:21).
-God told Israel to be holy, as He is holy, not strive for it (Lev.11:44-45).
-God told Christians to be holy, as He is holy, not strive for it (1 Pt.1:15-16).
-We are told to be holy, and w/o holiness, will not see the Lord (Heb.12:14). What becomes of the one who strives for it, but falls short of it?
-Israel was told to sin no more, not strive for it (Ex.20:20).
-Job was told to sin not, not strive to sin not (Job 5:24).
-The man and woman healed and forgiven by Jesus, were told to sin no more, not strive to sin no more (Jn.5:14; 8:11).
-Christians are told to sin no more and be righteous, not strive for it (1 Cor.15:34; Eph.4:26; 1 Pt.4:1).
-We are to rebuke sinning Christians before all, that others may fear (1 Tim.5:20). Are all Christians to be rebuked? Not all, b/c we are to sin no more, not strive for it.
-The same could be said throughout the Bible for the words blameless, blemish, clean, defile, fault, innocent, pure, righteous, spotless, and stain.

I've already studied the "strive" teaching that is so widely accepted in our churches and never established in Scripture. I've written down hundreds of verses that never say "strive," they say "do."

As far as being perfect, let's take a look at Job. The Bible states that he was perfect. In context, this doesn't mean sinless. Complete is what the Hebrew term states. If Job were sinless, would God have spoken to him in the corrective fashion that he did? Could Job have died for our sins? No. I don't think so. When referencing Matthew 5:48, the Greek meaning is also complete.

Job was perfect, which is complete in conformity to God's ways. This is proof that it is possible by humans who have earthly fathers. He was also upright (righteous), feared God (b/c His judgment goes against ALL w/ sin on his or her account), and Job eschewed evil (he was w/o evil and turned completely from it).....(Job 1:1, 8; 2:3).

Let's say that like Job, the Apostle reached a level of completeness when he stated that he had run the course and kept the faith.

That would be an accurate accessment, since he had obviously completely conformed to the Word of God.

[quote="GoodNewsBrown]I don't necessarily know if he reached this level, but it could very well be the case. Could Paul have died for our sins at that time? How about the thief on the cross.[/quote]

The thief was completely conformed in God's eyes. He was forgiven of sin and was therefore sinless.

[quote="GoodNewsBrown]In a short time, he may very well have obtained a level of completeness like Job. He certainly had no entanglements that most believers have to deal with. Could he have died for our sins while he was on the cross?[/quote]

No, none were born sinless except Jesus. This is b/c sin is passed on from our fathers, making us guilty at birth. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and was not born with sin (Rom.5:12-21). They were made sinless by their faith in the only one who never sinned.

As far as us being sinless by the Blood of Christ, that's exactly why a genuine believer won't be judged eternally. Not because of works, but by the blood of Christ

Works of righteousness keep us in righteousness. Works of the flesh will put us in sin, of which no one who does such things will inherit the kingdom of God (Gal.5:19-21). Works of our own didn't save us from our sins, but our own works can either keep us justified by following the Spirit, or condemn us by following the flesh (Gal.6:7-8).

Look up the reference verses and you'll see that all I wrote on them are true. None of us have the authority to change the clear meaning of Scripture by inserting words of our own choosing. :naughty

 

[XTruth]

Should I sin? Of course not.
Should I ask forgiveness when I do? Always.
Should I ask forgiveness when I don't? Sure thing.

Why should you ask for forgiveness if we are bound to sin and it is forgiven no matter what we do anyway, as you believe?
Why would any be condemned by sin if it is unavoidable and we are going to be servants to sin no matter what in life (Jn.8:34; Rom.6:16)? God would be unjust to judge on something we have no control over.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Christ is NOT teaching self-mutilation here. Even your thoughts of sin are sinful and you are worthy of condemnation. There is no way you can control your thoughts.

Is that a fact?
"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled (2 Cor.10:5-6)."

Dreams are your thoughts, no way around that for if one was perfect those thoughts would never come to mind.

There is a tempter that tempts. Just b/c those thoughts come to mind, doesn't make them sin. Dwelling on those thoughts, letting those thoughts give birth (Jas.1:13-15), not bringing them into captivity, that is sin.

We cannot trust in ourselves but we can trust in Christ. That is the whole point, the essence of the message, the Good News. We are free from such an obligation of performance.

Free from living righteously, or free from the penalty of the sins that were imputed against us?
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord (Heb.12:14)"
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God (Rom.3:25)"

We don't have the strength, but He does. Our salvation is not of ourselves for nothing we can do will make us worthy. We must get our eyes off of ourselves and onto Him. Within there is no salvation for salvation is at the hand and mercy of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We cannot take credit for our salvation, we cannot rob the Lord of His glory.

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil.2:12)" Our eternal salvation is only a hope. We do have work to do to make it possible for us. We should even pursue that work w/ fear and trembling at the thought of not living in perfect conformity to God's Word.

 

[Rick W]

What's the difference of those under the law in the OT and those under a works-centered plan of salvation as you advocate?

 

[Good News Brown]

I think we are thinking on 2 different planes. First off, I'll explain what I don't mean. When God gives a commandment, either to do, or do not do, we are to obey. In other words, not strive to obey, not strive to not do something that is sin, and then using imperfection as an excuse for failing. That's not at all what I meant. As far as perfection, we can remove the word strive if you like. As believers, I believe we should do His commandments. The reason I used the word strive, or pursue perfection, is that we will never be perfect (sinless) as Jesus is. That's why I think focusing on my use of the word strive is zeroing in on something insignificant. Again, I'm willing to not use that word if you prefer. Getting back to my comment on us never being perfect as Jesus is perfect (sinless), is there anyone that you know of who's righteousness is not as a filthy rag to God? Is the righteousness of Jesus, or if you prefer, when He walked on Earth in human form, as a filthy rag to God the father? Wouldn't you agree that there's a huge difference between any man, no matter how righteous, and Jesus Christ? Or, is there someone I apparently don't know about who attained the type of perfection that would make him/her equivalent to Jesus? Is there someone who can say they do not need to pursue being perfected anymore who still lives in a mortal body? Did Job need no further improvement?

I also think that it's interesting that you referenced Job chapter 5 (although I don't know if you meant to specify verse 24). We are told at the beginning that Job was a perfect (blameless, upright) man. Yet, he wasn't beyond correction.

 

[XTruth]

What's the difference of those under the law in the OT and those under a works-centered plan of salvation as you advocate?

As much as I enjoy constantly answering your questions, and completely proving what I've said biblically, just to have you ignore the proof from the Bible and come back at me with another question, how about you tell me how 'm wrong in my last responses to you, since it is obvious you think so. I've used Scripture w/ them all, so tell me how I've misinterpreted the clear meaning of those Scriptures in response to you, and then I will start answering your questions some more.




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"20For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
21And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed (2 Cor.12:20-21)."

"For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain (1 Thes.3:5)."

 

[XTruth]

[quote="Good News Brown":35crtrul]

I think we are thinking on 2 different planes. First off, I'll explain what I don't mean. When God gives a commandment, either to do, or do not do, we are to obey. In other words, not strive to obey, not strive to not do something that is sin, and then using imperfection as an excuse for failing. That's not at all what I meant. As far as perfection, we can remove the word strive if you like. As believers, I believe we should do His commandments. The reason I used the word strive, or pursue perfection, is that we will never be perfect (sinless) as Jesus is. That's why I think focusing on my use of the word strive is zeroing in on something insignificant. Again, I'm willing to not use that word if you prefer. Getting back to my comment on us never being perfect as Jesus is perfect (sinless), is there anyone that you know of who's righteousness is not as a filthy rag to God? Is the righteousness of Jesus, or if you prefer, when He walked on Earth in human form, as a filthy rag to God the father? Wouldn't you agree that there's a huge difference between any man, no matter how righteous, and Jesus Christ? Or, is there someone I apparently don't know about who attained the type of perfection that would make him/her equivalent to Jesus? Is there someone who can say they do not need to pursue being perfected anymore who still lives in a mortal body? Did Job need no further improvement?

I also think that it's interesting that you referenced Job chapter 5 (although I don't know if you meant to specify verse 24). We are told at the beginning that Job was a perfect (blameless, upright) man. Yet, he wasn't beyond correction.[/quote:35crtrul]

No time to seek and search references just yet, but I'm sure I will later as replies will most certainly prompt me to do so. I do prefer that you don't use the word "strive," reasons are in prior post to you; so we can agree on that...thank you.

Our righteousness is equal to the righteousness of Christ. Our righteousness is not as filthy rags in the sight of God, b/c it comes by way of the precious blood of Christ. The reference to righteousness being as filthy rags can only be found in Isa.64:6 and the context proves that they were in sin, not obeying their covenant, and still thinking themselves to be righteous. In no way can Isa.64 reference be used to describe the righteousness that a faithfully obedience child of God has. Perfection and righteousness is hand and hand to God and one cannot have one without the other by the standards of God. Righteousness is being w/o sin. Perfection is to be complete in conformity to the Word of God. There is no sin in either. One day the overcomers will be eternally perfected and receive eternal salvation (Rom.13:1; Phil.3:12). Right now, we can still have salvation, perfection, redemption, justification, and righteousness, but it is only initial salvation, perfection, redemption, justification, and righteousness. This is b/c we are still able to sin and bring back condemnation by being guilty of transgressing God's laws. "Initial" and "eternal," learn these 2 difference.

 

[Good News Brown]

Our righteousness is equal to the righteousness of Christ. Our righteousness is not as filthy rags in the sight of God, b/c it comes by way of the precious blood of Christ. The reference to righteousness being as filthy rags can only be found in Isa.64:6 and the context proves that they were in sin, not obeying their covenant, and still thinking themselves to be righteous."eternal,"

Yes, but this is only because of the precious blood of Christ.

A non-believer can decide to work righteousness (do that which is right). However, that person will not make it to Heaven because the righteousness of Jesus has not been imputed to him/her.

Romans 3:21-28

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law of the prophets, even the righteousness of God which is through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference, for all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, who God set forth to be a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By What law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

When we try to separate ourselves from sinners in the Bible, and those in the wold apart from the pure grace of God, and the shed blood of Jesus, I think we run into problems.

 

[Rick W]

What's the difference of those under the law in the OT and those under a works-centered plan of salvation as you advocate?

As much as I enjoy constantly answering your questions, and completely proving what I've said biblically, just to have you ignore the proof from the Bible and come back at me with another question, how about you tell me how 'm wrong in my last responses to you, since it is obvious you think so. I've used Scripture w/ them all, so tell me how I've misinterpreted the clear meaning of those Scriptures in response to you, and then I will start answering your questions some more.

"how about you tell me how 'm wrong in my last responses to you"

OK, fair enough.
The scripture Good News Brown posted is exactly the verses I had in mind but he beat me to it.

Romans 3:21-28

color added for emphasis.

Okay, I do advocate a works-centered doctrine...not to be saved from past sins, but to remain justified by my works of obedience to the gospel commands so that I won't be condemned by sin again. It is only by Christ that we can be justified (made innocent). After that, it is us who must continue to follow Christ in order to stay on the narrow path, which is only accomplished by following His ways, words, sayings, authority, and commandments. Do you see that it is works that justifies, and not faith alone?

The work I and others believe in is the work of obedience to the gospel program which keeps us from future sin and thereby keeps us justified (innocent).

Where is boasting then? It is excluded.

3. Are you humble.

I am extremely humble. But be prepared to be called prideful and arrogant if you are bold with what the Word of God says. It has only happened to me from Christians...weird

5. Do you recieve correction without getting angry.

Yes most the time, and sometimes I get angry at injustice from authorities who correct unjustly, but I sin not (Eph.4:26).

and then I will start answering your questions some more.

What's the difference of those under the law in the OT and those under a works-centered plan of salvation as you advocate?

 

[turnorburn]

like tose feathers, did you learn from Kat or maybe Hegel ?

sorry can't forget Sweedenborg :D


http://www.swedenborg.com/


sorry for enmanship this dial-up in this hospital don't cut it...

 

[shad]

What's the difference of those under the law in the OT and those under a works-centered plan of salvation as you advocate?

I am sorry Rick, I don't believe in OSAS but I don't believe my faith is work centered. I strive to be holy and righteous because Jesus tells us to be holy and righteous. He also tell us if we love Him, keep His commandments. If His followers will be automatically be saved because they are born again, Jesus would not have to give us so many things to do as His followers.

 

[XTruth]

Our righteousness is equal to the righteousness of Christ. Our righteousness is not as filthy rags in the sight of God, b/c it comes by way of the precious blood of Christ. The reference to righteousness being as filthy rags can only be found in Isa.64:6 and the context proves that they were in sin, not obeying their covenant, and still thinking themselves to be righteous."eternal,"

Yes, but this is only because of the precious blood of Christ.

A non-believer can decide to work righteousness (do that which is right). However, that person will not make it to Heaven because the righteousness of Jesus has not been imputed to him/her.

Okay, I've been saying this the wholr time...so has everyone on both sides of the debate. What's your point?

Romans 3:21-28

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law of the prophets, even the righteousness of God which is through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference, for all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, who God set forth to be a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By What law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Here is the full quote w/ what you left out. What is underlined is what was mysteriously omitted. I'm sure it was an accident



21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

When we try to separate ourselves from sinners in the Bible, and those in the wold apart from the pure grace of God, and the shed blood of Jesus, I think we run into problems.

Right, so again, what is your point, not even trying to be difficult; I just don't see your point in telling me this. There is no righteousness apart from the grace of God, through faith in His blood,to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

Maybe you are confused as to how it is I believe one becomes righteous. Would you care to tell me what it is you think I believe?