Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer is Truth

[Good News Brown]

Saint Iguanas wrote.

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

ONLY THOSE WHO FOLLOW HIM ARE IN THAT CATEGORY NOT BACKSLIDERS.

Only if you stay in the faith; if you remove yourself from Him, He will let you go. Yahweh's Son has no prisoners only all those who are willing and obedient to follow and obey Him.
So you can't use these verses as a guaranty to your salvation.
SALVATION WILL BE YOURS WHEN YOU FINISH THE RACE.

Was Paul being presumptuous when he stated in 2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.? As I understand it, Paul was still alive (in his human body). According to your understanding, Paul seems to be jumping the gun by claiming he's finished his course which has kept him saved.

 

[Solo]

What is sad is that those who believe that one can negate God's Salvation by not "keeping the faith," is common among young believers and those who do not understand justification. Many who are not even born again believe they can lose the Salvation that they do not even have.

All of the examples that one can show as "proof" that one can lose their gift of eternal life only show the loss of living a successful life here on earth prior to Christ Jesus return, and the loss of rewards. No where does the Scriptures show that once one is born again, born from above, one can lose the gift of eternal life with Christ Jesus. That idea is purely a carnal one.

Been there, done that.

 

[XTruth]

Saint Iguanas wrote.

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

ONLY THOSE WHO FOLLOW HIM ARE IN THAT CATEGORY NOT BACKSLIDERS.

Only if you stay in the faith; if you remove yourself from Him, He will let you go. Yahweh's Son has no prisoners only all those who are willing and obedient to follow and obey Him.
So you can't use these verses as a guaranty to your salvation.
SALVATION WILL BE YOURS WHEN YOU FINISH THE RACE.

Was Paul being presumptuous when he stated in 2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.? As I understand it, Paul was still alive (in his human body). According to your understanding, Paul seems to be jumping the gun by claiming he's finished his course which has kept him saved.

Paul was in prison w/ a death sentence. He had fought a good fight for decades while in all kinds of tribulations, persecutions, even been in prison before. Paul had kept the faith by following every rule of the game (1 Cor.9:24-27) and has won the prize lawfully. Verse 8 tells us from Paul's own words that the crown is laid up for him, not that the crown was already in possession. The crown is possessed by none until the time of reward. It is in view for the faithful, not in possession. If you could go to that moment in prison when Paul wrote that and asked him if it were possible for him to lose his crown/crowns, then I know he would've said it is possible for any man to lose the prize while he still has breath in his lungs and life in his physical body (Eze.18:24; Rev.3:11). But he was ready for eternity with God (Phil.1:20-26) and confident that he would not lose faith or his reward. Many of Paul's writings make this clear....

Warnings to Christians and works of righteousness to be done that are from Paul are from pages 100, 256 and 285 N.T. of the Dake's Annotated Reference Bible:
62) Persuade them to continue in the grace of God (Acts 13:43)
63) Exhorting them to continue in the faith (Acts 14:22)
64) When they knew God, they glorified him not as God… God gave them up to uncleanness (Rom 1:21-32)
65) They which commit such things are worthy of death (Rom 1:32; 2:2-3)
66) By patient continuance in well doing seek for eternal life (Rom 2:7)
67) Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are? (Rom 6:16-23)
68) The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23)
69) Who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Rom 8:1-4)
70) If you live after the flesh you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live (Rom 8:12-13)
71) Because of unbelief they were broken off and you stand by faith… on them that fell, severity; but toward you goodness, if you continue in His goodness: otherwise you shall be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in again (Rom 11:20-23)
72) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy (1 Cor 3:17)
73) The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-10)
74) Through your knowledge the weak brother shall perish (1 Cor 8:11)
75) I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection, lest when I have preached to others, I myself shall be a castaway (1 Cor 9:27)
76) By which you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain (1 Cor 15:2)
77) By faith you stand (2 Cor 1:24)
78) We labor, that whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him (2 Cor 5:9)
79) We beseech you that you receive not the grace of God in vain (2 Cor 6:1)
80) I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity in Christ (2 Cor 11:3)
81) Christ is in you, except you be reprobates (castaways) (2 Cor 13:5)
82) I marvel that you are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel (Gal 1:6-9)
83) If I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor (Gal 2:18)
84) I do not frustrate the grace of God (Gal 2:21)
85) Who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth (Gal 3:1; 5:7)
86) Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? (Gal 3:3; 5:19-21)
87) The just shall live by faith (by daily faith, not a faith once for all) (Gal 3:11)
88) After you have known God, how turn you again to be in bondage? (Gal 4:9)
89) I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed labor upon you in vain (Gal 4:11)
90) My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you… I stand in doubt of you (Gal 4:19-20)
91) Stand fast in the liberty… be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage (Gal 5:1,3)
92) You are fallen from grace (Gal 5:4)
93) A little leaven leavens the whole lump (Gal 5:9; 1 Cor 5:7-8)
94) If you bite and devour one another, take heed that you be not consumed one of another (Gal 5:15)
95) Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Gal 5:16)
96) They which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal 5:19-21)
97) Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap. For he that sows to the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting (Gal 6:7-8)
98) The spirit that works in the children of disobedience (Eph 2:2)
99) Because of these things (sins) cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience (Eph 5:6)
100) That you may be without offence until the day of Christ (Phil 1:10)
101) Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12)
102) Stand fast in the Lord (Phil 4:1)
103) If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel (Col 1:23)
104) As you have received Christ, so walk in Him: rooted and built up in Him, and established in the faith (Col 2:6-7)
105) Beware lest any man spoil you… after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ (Col 2:8)
106) Let no man beguile you of your reward… not holding the Head (Christ) (Col 2:18-19)
107) Mortify your members upon earth… for which things’ sake cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience (Col 3:5-6)
108) He that does wrong shall receive for the wrong which he has done: and there is no respect of persons (Col 3:25)
109) I sent to know of your faith, lest by some means the tempter has tempted you, and our labor be in vain (1 Th 3:5)
110) Now we live, if we stand fast in the Lord (1 Th 3:8)
111) Taking vengeance on them that obey not the gospel… who shall be punished with everlasting destruction (2 Th 1:8-9)
112) Withdraw from every brother that walks disorderly (2 Th 3:6,14)
113) From which (faith) some have turned aside (1 Tim 1:5-6)
114) Some having put away their faith having made it shipwrecked (1 Tim 1:18-20)
115) Some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Tim 4:1)
116) Take heed unto yourself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in so doing this you shall save yourself, and them that hear you (1 Tim 4:16)
117) He has denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel (1 Tim 5:8)
118) When they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; having damnation, because they have castoff their first faith (1 Tim 5:11-12)
119) Some have already turned aside after Satan (1 Tim 5:15)
120) While some coveted after (money), they have erred from the faith (1 Tim 6:10)
121) Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold of eternal life (1 Tim 6:12,19)
122) Some have erred concerning the faith (1 Tim 6:21)
123) If we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him (2 Tim 2:11)
124) If we deny Him, He also will deny us (2 Tim 2:12)
125) Who concerning the faith have erred… and overthrow the faith of some (2 Tim 2:18)
126) Continue in the things you have learned (2 Tim 3:14-15)
127) We ought to give more earnest lest we slip away from the truth (Heb 2:1)
128) How shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation? (Heb 2:3)
129) Whose house are we, if we hold fast the hope firm unto the end (Heb 3:6)
130) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the Living God (Heb 3:12)
131) Exhort one another daily… lest any of you be hardened through sin (Heb 3:13)
132) We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold steadfast unto the end (Heb 3:14)
133) Let us therefore, fear, lest you come short of the promised rest (Heb 4:1-2)
134) Let us labor to enter into rest, lest any man fall through unbelief (Heb 4:11)
135) Let us hold fast our profession (Heb 4:14)
136) If they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance is impossible (Heb 6:4-9)
137) Show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end (Heb 6:11)
138) Be not slothful, but faithful and patient to inherit the promise (Heb 6:12)
139) Lay hold upon the hope of eternal life set before us (Heb 6:18-19)
140) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering (Heb 10:23)
141) If we sin willfully we will receive judgment and fiery indignation (Heb 10 26-31)
142) Cast not away confidence (Heb 10:35)
143) If any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him (Heb 10:38-39)
144) Let us lay aside every weight and the sin that so easily besets us (Heb 12:1)
145) Make straight paths for your feet, lest the lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed (Heb 12:13)
146) Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many defiled; lest any be a fornicator and sell his birthright like Esau (Heb 12:15-17)
147) See that ye refuse not God. For if Israel escaped not God’s wrath when she refused Him, much more shall we not escape His wrath, if we turn away from Him (Heb 12:25)
148) Let us have grace and serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear, for God will punish by fire (Heb 12:28-29)


There are certainly obligations a Christian is required to fulfill. These obligations, when kept and fulfilled, will keep the saved on the narrow path, leaving no room for the flesh, that will only bring eternal damnation (Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8). Here are some more things wriiten by Paul, then some by John are in the mix as well.

For true eternal security and assurance of salvation, a Christian must:
Become a subject of God’s grace (Phil.1:6); be a partaker of God’s grace (Phil.1:7); abound more and more in love (Phil.1:9); approve things that are excellent (Phil.1:10); be sincere until the end (Phil.1:10); be without offence till the end (Phil.1:10); be filled with the fruits of righteousness (Phil.1:11); let your manner of life be as becomes the gospel of Christ (Phil.1:27); stand fast in one spirit and one mind with others striving together for the gospel (Phil.1:27); be not terrified by the enemy (Phil.1:28); suffer for His sake (Phil.1:29); be likeminded with Christ (Phil.2:2); have the same love (Phil.2:2); be of one accord and of one mind with others (Phil.2:2; 3:16); and let nothing be done through strife or vain glory (Phil.2:3).

Continuing on, we must also: esteem others better than yourself (Phil.2:3); be interested in others (Phil.2:4); let the mind of Christ be in you (Phil.2:5); obey the gospel (Phil.2:12); work out your own salvation (Phil.2:12-13); do all things without murmuring and disputing (Phil.2:14); be blameless, harmless, and without rebuke among men (Phil.2:15); hold forth the Word of Life (Phil.2:16); beware of dogs, evil workers, and the circumcision party (Phil.3:2); press toward the high calling (Phil.3:13-16); walk by the gospel standard (Phil.3:16); and be followers of the apostles and mark the enemies of the cross of Christ (Phil.3:17-20).

Take a deep breathe, I know it sounds too hard, but we must also: stand fast in the Lord (Phil.4:1); help all workers of Christ (Phil.4:3); rejoice in the Lord always (Phil.4:4); let your moderation be known to all men (Phil.4:5); be anxious for nothing (Phil.4:6); let request be known to God (Phil.4:6); think on right things (Phil.4:8); and do what you’ve learned, received, and heard (Phil.4:9). To simplify this in your memory, just love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength; also loving people by treating them better than yourself, because the one you call Father has given His beloved Son to die for them as well.

Salvation isn’t kept and manifested as eternal unless you labor for it (Jn.6:27). We must also: come to Christ (Jn.6:37, 44, 45, 65); eat His flesh and drink His blood (Jn.6:50-51, 53, 58); reap (Jn.4:35-38); hate (love less) the life in this world (Jn.12:25); know God and Christ (Jn.17:2-3); enter right gate (Mat.7:13-14); cause no offense (Mat. 18:8-9); keep commandments (Mat.19:17; Jn.8:31, 51); forsake all (Mat.19:27-29; Mk.10:28-30; Lk.18:28-30); live free from sin (Rom.5:21; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Tit.2:11-14); continue in well doing and seek eternal life (Rom.2:7); sow to the Spirit (Gal.6:7-8); fight the good fight of faith; lay hold on it (1 Tim.6:12, 19); be sober and hope to the end for it (Tit.1:2; 3:7; 1 Pt.1:5, 9, 13; Rom.8:24); endure temptations (Jas.1:12); let the promise of it remain in you and continue in God and Christ (1 Jn.2:24-25; 5:11-20); love everybody (1 Jn.3:14-15); keep yourself in the love of God, looking for eternal life (Jude 20-24); overcome sin (Rev.2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21); be faithful unto death (Rev.2:10; Heb.12:14-15); believe and obey the gospel (Jn.3:15-19, 36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:40; 47, 54; 2 Cor.5:17; Rom.1:5); and be born again, hear Christ, and follow Him (Jn.3; 10:27-29).

 

[Good News Brown]

There are certainly obligations a Christian is required to fulfill. These obligations, when kept and fulfilled, will keep the saved on the narrow path, leaving no room for the flesh, that will only bring eternal damnation (Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8). Here are some more things wriiten by Paul, then some by John are in the mix as well.

For true eternal security and assurance of salvation, a Christian must:
Become a subject of God’s grace (Phil.1:6); be a partaker of God’s grace (Phil.1:7); abound more and more in love (Phil.1:9); approve things that are excellent (Phil.1:10); be sincere until the end (Phil.1:10); be without offence till the end (Phil.1:10); be filled with the fruits of righteousness (Phil.1:11); let your manner of life be as becomes the gospel of Christ (Phil.1:27); stand fast in one spirit and one mind with others striving together for the gospel (Phil.1:27); be not terrified by the enemy (Phil.1:28); suffer for His sake (Phil.1:29); be likeminded with Christ (Phil.2:2); have the same love (Phil.2:2); be of one accord and of one mind with others (Phil.2:2; 3:16); and let nothing be done through strife or vain glory (Phil.2:3).

Continuing on, we must also: esteem others better than yourself (Phil.2:3); be interested in others (Phil.2:4); let the mind of Christ be in you (Phil.2:5); obey the gospel (Phil.2:12); work out your own salvation (Phil.2:12-13); do all things without murmuring and disputing (Phil.2:14); be blameless, harmless, and without rebuke among men (Phil.2:15); hold forth the Word of Life (Phil.2:16); beware of dogs, evil workers, and the circumcision party (Phil.3:2); press toward the high calling (Phil.3:13-16); walk by the gospel standard (Phil.3:16); and be followers of the apostles and mark the enemies of the cross of Christ (Phil.3:17-20).

Take a deep breathe, I know it sounds too hard, but we must also: stand fast in the Lord (Phil.4:1); help all workers of Christ (Phil.4:3); rejoice in the Lord always (Phil.4:4); let your moderation be known to all men (Phil.4:5); be anxious for nothing (Phil.4:6); let request be known to God (Phil.4:6); think on right things (Phil.4:8); and do what you’ve learned, received, and heard (Phil.4:9). To simplify this in your memory, just love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength; also loving people by treating them better than yourself, because the one you call Father has given His beloved Son to die for them as well.

Salvation isn’t kept and manifested as eternal unless you labor for it (Jn.6:27). We must also: come to Christ (Jn.6:37, 44, 45, 65); eat His flesh and drink His blood (Jn.6:50-51, 53, 58); reap (Jn.4:35-38); hate (love less) the life in this world (Jn.12:25); know God and Christ (Jn.17:2-3); enter right gate (Mat.7:13-14); cause no offense (Mat. 18:8-9); keep commandments (Mat.19:17; Jn.8:31, 51); forsake all (Mat.19:27-29; Mk.10:28-30; Lk.18:28-30); live free from sin (Rom.5:21; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Tit.2:11-14); continue in well doing and seek eternal life (Rom.2:7); sow to the Spirit (Gal.6:7-8); fight the good fight of faith; lay hold on it (1 Tim.6:12, 19); be sober and hope to the end for it (Tit.1:2; 3:7; 1 Pt.1:5, 9, 13; Rom.8:24); endure temptations (Jas.1:12); let the promise of it remain in you and continue in God and Christ (1 Jn.2:24-25; 5:11-20); love everybody (1 Jn.3:14-15); keep yourself in the love of God, looking for eternal life (Jude 20-24); overcome sin (Rev.2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21); be faithful unto death (Rev.2:10; Heb.12:14-15); believe and obey the gospel (Jn.3:15-19, 36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:40; 47, 54; 2 Cor.5:17; Rom.1:5); and be born again, hear Christ, and follow Him (Jn.3; 10:27-29).

Jude v24: Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy

No doubt you've addressed this a number of times, but relevant nonetheless. When taking Luke 23:43 into view, along with the verse in Jude, we're faced with one who had to rely solely on Christ's ability to save him. There was certainly very little the thief on the cross could do in terms of laboring for salvation. One would have to assume a complete advantage to a deathbed conversion, because no striving/laboring was needed. Christ's ability to save the thief would be based on an advantage point in dealing with one with only a few hours to live, no worldly/fleshly temptation, no persecution to dissuade him, etc. We would have to concoct theoretical notions that the thief, shortly after being promised eternal life would be then tempted by Satan in his few hours to somehow disbelieve in order to comply with a conditional security. Or, was the thief somehow exempt from a conditional security, that others with more time to live are subject to?

 

[cyberjosh]

Was Paul being presumptuous when he stated in 2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.? As I understand it, Paul was still alive (in his human body). According to your understanding, Paul seems to be jumping the gun by claiming he's finished his course which has kept him saved.

Paul was in prison w/ a death sentence. He had fought a good fight for decades while in all kinds of tribulations, persecutions, even been in prison before. Paul had kept the faith by following every rule of the game (1 Cor.9:24-27) and has won the prize lawfully. Verse 8 tells us from Paul's own words that the crown is laid up for him, not that the crown was already in possession. The crown is possessed by none until the time of reward. It is in view for the faithful, not in possession. If you could go to that moment in prison when Paul wrote that and asked him if it were possible for him to lose his crown/crowns, then I know he would've said it is possible for any man to lose the prize while he still has breath in his lungs and life in his physical body (Eze.18:24; Rev.3:11). But he was ready for eternity with God (Phil.1:20-26) and confident that he would not lose faith or his reward. Many of Paul's writings make this clear....

Warnings to Christians and works of righteousness to be done that are from Paul are from pages 100, 256 and 285 N.T. of the Dake's Annotated Reference Bible:
62) Persuade them to continue in the grace of God (Acts 13:43)
63) Exhorting them to continue in the faith (Acts 14:22)
64) When they knew God, they glorified him not as God… God gave them up to uncleanness (Rom 1:21-32)

[...snipped for space considerations....]

146) Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many defiled; lest any be a fornicator and sell his birthright like Esau (Heb 12:15-17)
147) See that ye refuse not God. For if Israel escaped not God’s wrath when she refused Him, much more shall we not escape His wrath, if we turn away from Him (Heb 12:25)
148) Let us have grace and serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear, for God will punish by fire (Heb 12:28-29)


There are certainly obligations a Christian is required to fulfill. These obligations, when kept and fulfilled, will keep the saved on the narrow path, leaving no room for the flesh, that will only bring eternal damnation (Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8). Here are some more things wriiten by Paul, then some by John are in the mix as well.

For true eternal security and assurance of salvation, a Christian must:
Become a subject of God’s grace (Phil.1:6); be a partaker of God’s grace (Phil.1:7); abound more and more in love (Phil.1:9); approve things that are excellent (Phil.1:10); be sincere until the end (Phil.1:10); be without offence till the end (Phil.1:10); be filled with the fruits of righteousness (Phil.1:11); let your manner of life be as becomes the gospel of Christ (Phil.1:27); stand fast in one spirit and one mind with others striving together for the gospel (Phil.1:27); be not terrified by the enemy (Phil.1:28); suffer for His sake (Phil.1:29); be likeminded with Christ (Phil.2:2); have the same love (Phil.2:2); be of one accord and of one mind with others (Phil.2:2; 3:16); and let nothing be done through strife or vain glory (Phil.2:3).

Continuing on, we must also: esteem others better than yourself (Phil.2:3); be interested in others (Phil.2:4); let the mind of Christ be in you (Phil.2:5); obey the gospel (Phil.2:12); work out your own salvation (Phil.2:12-13); do all things without murmuring and disputing (Phil.2:14); be blameless, harmless, and without rebuke among men (Phil.2:15); hold forth the Word of Life (Phil.2:16); beware of dogs, evil workers, and the circumcision party (Phil.3:2); press toward the high calling (Phil.3:13-16); walk by the gospel standard (Phil.3:16); and be followers of the apostles and mark the enemies of the cross of Christ (Phil.3:17-20).

Take a deep breathe, I know it sounds too hard, but we must also: stand fast in the Lord (Phil.4:1); help all workers of Christ (Phil.4:3); rejoice in the Lord always (Phil.4:4); let your moderation be known to all men (Phil.4:5); be anxious for nothing (Phil.4:6); let request be known to God (Phil.4:6); think on right things (Phil.4:8); and do what you’ve learned, received, and heard (Phil.4:9). To simplify this in your memory, just love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength; also loving people by treating them better than yourself, because the one you call Father has given His beloved Son to die for them as well.

Salvation isn’t kept and manifested as eternal unless you labor for it (Jn.6:27). We must also: come to Christ (Jn.6:37, 44, 45, 65); eat His flesh and drink His blood (Jn.6:50-51, 53, 58); reap (Jn.4:35-38); hate (love less) the life in this world (Jn.12:25); know God and Christ (Jn.17:2-3); enter right gate (Mat.7:13-14); cause no offense (Mat. 18:8-9); keep commandments (Mat.19:17; Jn.8:31, 51); forsake all (Mat.19:27-29; Mk.10:28-30; Lk.18:28-30); live free from sin (Rom.5:21; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Tit.2:11-14); continue in well doing and seek eternal life (Rom.2:7); sow to the Spirit (Gal.6:7-8); fight the good fight of faith; lay hold on it (1 Tim.6:12, 19); be sober and hope to the end for it (Tit.1:2; 3:7; 1 Pt.1:5, 9, 13; Rom.8:24); endure temptations (Jas.1:12); let the promise of it remain in you and continue in God and Christ (1 Jn.2:24-25; 5:11-20); love everybody (1 Jn.3:14-15); keep yourself in the love of God, looking for eternal life (Jude 20-24); overcome sin (Rev.2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21); be faithful unto death (Rev.2:10; Heb.12:14-15); believe and obey the gospel (Jn.3:15-19, 36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:40; 47, 54; 2 Cor.5:17; Rom.1:5); and be born again, hear Christ, and follow Him (Jn.3; 10:27-29).

Wow Xtruth! What a post. I might have to print that out. I can probably say that we have similar views of how Christ's grace and salvation is given to us and yet makes us responsible to make use of that grace to run the race with all perseverance. We are saved by grace alone, "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" (John 1:17), yet how precious that grace is that we must not ever reject it, as Paul tells us, "And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain" (2 Corinthians 6:1). We must persevere by faith, and be strengthened by the One who truly can keep us from stumbling, and we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling as God works in us to will and to do, and I believe that if Peter admonishes us, "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble" (2 Peter 1:10), that it is indeed possible to make our election and calling sure with Christ's strength and the empowering of the Holy Spirit. Our job is to press toward the mark in faith and not reject the Spirit's work in us, placing our hope in Christ.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[dadof10]

[quote="Saint_Iguanas":npzllfc4]

Yes, and not a twisting of the Scripture as done in your cherrypicked snippet from James that is lifted totally out of it's context as a pretext for your own presupposition.

Wow, is that the pot calling the kettle black.

Wrong! It's correcting a really bad eisegesis.

Now, lets take a look at the context James is speaking of, being, that James is speaking of those who make a profession of faith, which is not justified, ie-proven, in their deeds.

James is not speaking of how one is justified in the eyes of God, but how one's profession is proven, justified in the eyes of men.

No, he's not. This is the typical Calvinist line

Wrong again, it's not a "typical Calvinist line", it is what a correct hermenuetical exegete of the passage when read in context shows.

and the ENTIRE passage taken in context debunks your assesment.

Wrong again, as has already been demonstrated.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

Notice, James lays down the context from the beginning, of a declaration or profession of faith that is made before men.

What I notice is you "snipped" half of verse 14 and put it with verses 15-17. It should read "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? (James (RSV) 2)

No, I didn't "snip" anything. I stated that verse 14 lays down the context of the kind of faith James is speaking of is merely a "said faith", a mere profession of faith, and said that James is correct, that kind of faith cannot save anyone, which is what the part you are confused on being left out says.

In context, the red highlighted above is properly a part of verse 14 because it is referring to the "faith" earlier in the verse.

Yes, and James is speaking of a very specific kind of faith, laid down in the opening verse, which is a mere profession of faith, which I agree that kind of faith is dead.

Here are my exact words:

And James is right, a mere profession of faith made to men, that is not justified, that is proven through their actions is a dead profession.

I wonder why you would do that....hummmmm.

Please learn how to read what is actually said, in context so you don't go chasing ghosts.

What do you think the answer to this rhetorical question is? Yes?

What rhetorical question would that be?

James is not talking about a "declaration or profession of faith that is made before men" ONLY, he simply asks "if someone says he has faith, but does not have works, can his faith save him?"

Oh, but James described a very specific kind of faith, note the kind of faith James is addressing:

"If a man SAYS he has faith.....[/s]". James is speaking of those who go around telling people they have faith, which is indeed making a profession of faith before men.

I'm sorry that you cannot get past your eisegesis to see the context James is speaking in.[/quote:npzllfc4]

Wow, here it is. I knew there was a response, I just couldn't find it. I posted on Mon. night and there are 4 more pages. Busy thread. It seems your main points concerning James 2 are that when he says "faith" he means "said faith" or "false faith", and when he says justification, he means "justification before man" not before God. Instead of posting here, I'll start another thread in the A&T forum called "James 2, Said Faith?". We can discuss it there. It might take a couple of days, it's Ash Wednesday and I'm a little busy.

 

[francisdesales]

What is sad is that those who believe that one can negate God's Salvation by not "keeping the faith," is common among young believers and those who do not understand justification. Many who are not even born again believe they can lose the Salvation that they do not even have.

All of the examples that one can show as "proof" that one can lose their gift of eternal life only show the loss of living a successful life here on earth prior to Christ Jesus return, and the loss of rewards. No where does the Scriptures show that once one is born again, born from above, one can lose the gift of eternal life with Christ Jesus. That idea is purely a carnal one.

Been there, done that.

Yes, this is a very carnal idea - reality...

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:20-22

Apparently, in your mind, fantasy = spiritual thinking, because that is what it takes to ignore the implications of Sacred Scriptures when it completely crushes your false idea of justification and salvation, but, after "being there, done that", you still don't get it...

No amount of denial will save you here. Peter is speaking about formerly "saved" individuals who were once illuminated by the Spirit of God. Better if they never were??? Strong condemnation against your idea of 'once saved always saved".

Very strong.

Like here is what Peter does to OSAS:

Let's break it down for you...

AFTER they escaped pollutions of the world.
RECEIVED the knowledge of Christ
BECAME illuminated by receiving the Spirit...

Sound familar? How about this from Jesus?

Received the Word with Joy...
Believed for awhile...

And then what did these saved people, saved from their former life of sin, do?

ENTANGLED AGAIN in their past ways
RETURNED to the vomit of their past life

FELL AWAY...

Peter says it would be BETTER IF THEY NEVER KNEW THE WAYS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!

So much for remaining justified in God's eyes despite a sinful life.

Neither the Jews or the Christians subscribed to such a twisting of the Sacred Word of God. You are spreading a false "gospel" that is so thoroughly denied in Scriptures. It is a shame that an "old Christian" refuses to see it. Obedience to God saves to heaven, not obstinate denial of God's Word to keep your sacred cow afloat...

Obey God.... You'll be saved. There is the solution to being eternally secure...

Regards

 

[lovely]

Jesus says to the goats..."Depart from me, I never knew you" People who are truly regnerate, who follow Jesus in the narrow way, are known...the rest were never known.

Those who fall away, are not disciplined, they are given over to their sin because they are not sons.
Hebrews 12: Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye *illegitimate, and not sons.

You will know them by their fruits, if we are of God's Seed, then we are alive and bearing fruit unto Him. The one's grafted out are not bearing, they are not of the root of the Righteous One. Grapes are not gathered from thornbushes, nor figs from thistles.

The warnings of God, make your election sure, walk worthy, bear fruit, keep my commandments, fear God, do good works, mature etc. these are warnings to those on the Way as helps to stay on the way to overcome, to persevere...from a Father to His children.

Last thought, A man who is bound, who's nature is at emnity with God, has a will that will follow his nature, no works in Christ will be the result. A man who is liberated, who's nature is new in Christ, has a will that will follow his nature, good works in Christ. The firstfruit of faith is regeneration, the Holy Spirit, the fruits of faith are works in Christ.

Just some thoughts. The Lord bless you.

*Edited to replace the actual word in Scripture with the word, illegitimate, because the board censor replaced it with the word "sweethearts". :D

 

[XTruth]

There are certainly obligations a Christian is required to fulfill. These obligations, when kept and fulfilled, will keep the saved on the narrow path, leaving no room for the flesh, that will only bring eternal damnation (Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8). Here are some more things wriiten by Paul, then some by John are in the mix as well.

For true eternal security and assurance of salvation, a Christian must:
Become a subject of God’s grace (Phil.1:6); be a partaker of God’s grace (Phil.1:7); abound more and more in love (Phil.1:9); approve things that are excellent (Phil.1:10); be sincere until the end (Phil.1:10); be without offence till the end (Phil.1:10); be filled with the fruits of righteousness (Phil.1:11); let your manner of life be as becomes the gospel of Christ (Phil.1:27); stand fast in one spirit and one mind with others striving together for the gospel (Phil.1:27); be not terrified by the enemy (Phil.1:28); suffer for His sake (Phil.1:29); be likeminded with Christ (Phil.2:2); have the same love (Phil.2:2); be of one accord and of one mind with others (Phil.2:2; 3:16); and let nothing be done through strife or vain glory (Phil.2:3).

Continuing on, we must also: esteem others better than yourself (Phil.2:3); be interested in others (Phil.2:4); let the mind of Christ be in you (Phil.2:5); obey the gospel (Phil.2:12); work out your own salvation (Phil.2:12-13); do all things without murmuring and disputing (Phil.2:14); be blameless, harmless, and without rebuke among men (Phil.2:15); hold forth the Word of Life (Phil.2:16); beware of dogs, evil workers, and the circumcision party (Phil.3:2); press toward the high calling (Phil.3:13-16); walk by the gospel standard (Phil.3:16); and be followers of the apostles and mark the enemies of the cross of Christ (Phil.3:17-20).

Take a deep breathe, I know it sounds too hard, but we must also: stand fast in the Lord (Phil.4:1); help all workers of Christ (Phil.4:3); rejoice in the Lord always (Phil.4:4); let your moderation be known to all men (Phil.4:5); be anxious for nothing (Phil.4:6); let request be known to God (Phil.4:6); think on right things (Phil.4:8); and do what you’ve learned, received, and heard (Phil.4:9). To simplify this in your memory, just love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength; also loving people by treating them better than yourself, because the one you call Father has given His beloved Son to die for them as well.

Salvation isn’t kept and manifested as eternal unless you labor for it (Jn.6:27). We must also: come to Christ (Jn.6:37, 44, 45, 65); eat His flesh and drink His blood (Jn.6:50-51, 53, 58); reap (Jn.4:35-38); hate (love less) the life in this world (Jn.12:25); know God and Christ (Jn.17:2-3); enter right gate (Mat.7:13-14); cause no offense (Mat. 18:8-9); keep commandments (Mat.19:17; Jn.8:31, 51); forsake all (Mat.19:27-29; Mk.10:28-30; Lk.18:28-30); live free from sin (Rom.5:21; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Tit.2:11-14); continue in well doing and seek eternal life (Rom.2:7); sow to the Spirit (Gal.6:7-8); fight the good fight of faith; lay hold on it (1 Tim.6:12, 19); be sober and hope to the end for it (Tit.1:2; 3:7; 1 Pt.1:5, 9, 13; Rom.8:24); endure temptations (Jas.1:12); let the promise of it remain in you and continue in God and Christ (1 Jn.2:24-25; 5:11-20); love everybody (1 Jn.3:14-15); keep yourself in the love of God, looking for eternal life (Jude 20-24); overcome sin (Rev.2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21); be faithful unto death (Rev.2:10; Heb.12:14-15); believe and obey the gospel (Jn.3:15-19, 36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:40; 47, 54; 2 Cor.5:17; Rom.1:5); and be born again, hear Christ, and follow Him (Jn.3; 10:27-29).

Jude v24: Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy

No doubt you've addressed this a number of times, but relevant nonetheless. When taking Luke 23:43 into view, along with the verse in Jude, we're faced with one who had to rely solely on Christ's ability to save him. There was certainly very little the thief on the cross could do in terms of laboring for salvation. One would have to assume a complete advantage to a deathbed conversion, because no striving/laboring was needed. Christ's ability to save the thief would be based on an advantage point in dealing with one with only a few hours to live, no worldly/fleshly temptation, no persecution to dissuade him, etc. We would have to concoct theoretical notions that the thief, shortly after being promised eternal life would be then tempted by Satan in his few hours to somehow disbelieve in order to comply with a conditional security. Or, was the thief somehow exempt from a conditional security, that others with more time to live are subject to?

That is a logical direction to go and a great pondery/question. The simple answer is that we are saved because there are no more sins on our accounts, not b/c Jesus came in your heart. The prayer of salvation is often spoken to people in order to be repeated and many times I don't here any mention of repenting from your sins or forgiveness. Not all the time, but some times all I here is we are to invite Jesus in our heart. The whole purpose of being saved, born again, born from above, being a new creation, etc. is to be saved from something. What is it we need salvation for? What is it we are saved from? We are saved from God's wrath on sin, b/c what is owed to us for all sin held against us, or left on our account, is eternal death.

This is why we have to have our spirit born again, b/c while having sin on our account, or owed to us, then our spirit has the death penalty on it that can only be taken away by Jesus. Though the spirit in a lost man exist, it is said to be dead b/c of the death owed to it and the lack of the life that only comes from Christ, whether something exist or not. With all past sin (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9) wiped away and said to be thrown in the sea of forgetfulness (Mic.7:19), then death is not owed and the spirit abides in life. This is the true meaning of being born again. The man on the cross had faith in Christ and was forgiven and accepted by Christ. All his past sins were forgiven and he was justified (declared innocent).

The man on the cross was saved from God's wrath on sin b/c all his sins were past forgiven and he had no more time to sin. Really, he could have started to really hate those soldiers and died w/ unforgiveness or hate if he didn't die immediately and let Satan steal what Christ gave him. That would condemn him (Mat.6:12-15; 1 Jn.3:14-15), but that doesn't seem to be the case. That man was extremely fortunate, and knows it to this very day, not that the righteous man of 100 yrs just as fortunate, but I believe you know what I'm saying.

As for the man who is saved from all past sins, yet still has longer to live than a minute or two, the conditions are for his benefit as well as God's. By keeping these righteous works and obligations, he will be following the Spirit, not the flesh.

Gal.6:7-8 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

Gal.5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

The benefit to God is that our righteous lives will produce fruit that last forever in His kingdom. We would be influencing and encouraging others in their walk after the Spirit, not the flesh, and lead the lost to Christ, whether they accept Him or not. The kingdom should be expanding if all who claimed Christ would walk in Him, instead of the flesh, as many do.

1 Pt.2:21-22 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:"

1 Jn.2:3-6 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Following God's ways will keep you from sin and keep condemnation off you. Sin and eternal death has no legal claim/right to the one who has no sin on their account. This is why initial salvation is of faith + NO works (Rom.4:1-6; Eph.2:8-9; Tit.3:5), b/c only Christ can take away all past sin. By continuing in life, this is why eternal salvation, which is presently only a hope to the saved, is faith + works (Jas.14-26; and proved by many other verses such as the ones in my prior post and many more).

Heb.12:14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

Only past sin is forgiven (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9). Future sin condemns even the righteous (Gen.2:17; Ex.32:33; 34:7; Num.14:18; Job 10:14; Eze.3:17-21; 18:4, 20-32; 33:12-20; Jn.5:14; 8:31-34; 51; Rom.1:29-2:3; 6:16-23; 8:12-13; 1 Cor.3:16-17; 6:9-10 Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Eph.5:3-7; Col.3:5-10; Tit.2:11-14; Jas.1:15; 1 Jn.1:6; 3:1-10; 5:18; Rev.2-3; 21:8, 27; 22:15; etc.).

Eze.18:20-24
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. ((Thus, the man on the cross))
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

The New Covenant has the same warnings if anyone has a problem with me using our entire Bible, the entire inspired Word. This is not the Mosaic Law for those who don't know. It was written 1,000 years after the Mosaic Law and merely expresses how an unchanging God (Mal.3:6; Heb.13:8; Jas.1:17) has always dealt with all His beings, whether angelic beings or human beings.

If you can understand this simple principle of fact: that Jesus saves w/o respecter of person AND that sin condemns w/o respecter of person, then the entire gospel will be made simple (2 Cor.11:3). For all who are left blind (2 Cor.4:4) to this fact so simply illustrated in the first 3 chapters of the Bible, then confirmed throughout both testaments over and over again, then so much of the Word of God is wrestled with, when it really is simple. We just have to stop trying to understand God's ways w/ our own human philosophies and start believing His simple words (Jn.8:51).

 

[Solo]

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:20-22

Apparently, in your mind, fantasy = spiritual thinking, because that is what it takes to ignore the implications of Sacred Scriptures when it completely crushes your false idea of justification and salvation, but, after "being there, done that", you still don't get it...

No amount of denial will save you here. Peter is speaking about formerly "saved" individuals who were once illuminated by the Spirit of God. Better if they never were??? Strong condemnation against your idea of 'once saved always saved".

Very strong.

Like here is what Peter does to OSAS:

Let's break it down for you...

AFTER they escaped pollutions of the world.
RECEIVED the knowledge of Christ
BECAME illuminated by receiving the Spirit...

Sound familar? How about this from Jesus?

Received the Word with Joy...
Believed for awhile...

And then what did these saved people, saved from their former life of sin, do?

ENTANGLED AGAIN in their past ways
RETURNED to the vomit of their past life

FELL AWAY...

Peter says it would be BETTER IF THEY NEVER KNEW THE WAYS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!

So much for remaining justified in God's eyes despite a sinful life.

Neither the Jews or the Christians subscribed to such a twisting of the Sacred Word of God. You are spreading a false "gospel" that is so thoroughly denied in Scriptures. It is a shame that an "old Christian" refuses to see it. Obedience to God saves to heaven, not obstinate denial of God's Word to keep your sacred cow afloat...

Obey God.... You'll be saved. There is the solution to being eternally secure...

Regards

11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. 12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him. Proverbs 26:11-12

 

[Cornelius]

Take a deep breathe, I know it sounds too hard, but we must also: .

Praise God, yes what you write is all true and Scriptural and then we can add this:


Php 4:13 I can do all things in him that strengtheneth me.

 

[MarkT]

Based on what evidence do you say that? And why the JOY? Sorry, this is just refusing to see the obvious. Faith is had by the group that fell away and the group that remain. The difference is NOT the "level of understanding" - nowhere do we see that - but that the later group persevered in spite of tempation, while the former group did not.

Whether one falls or not depends NOT on "level of understanding" but on ADHERING to it!

Based on the fact that the word of the kingdom is given in parables. I don't think you understand. Now you keep telling us you decided to believe; your choice. OK. Evidently it's possible to believe and not understand the parables (the word of the kingdom), because you yourself say that faith doesn't depend on understanding. I'm not sure what you mean by faith then since you don't have to understand. But nevertheless, I agree people can believe without understanding the secrets of the kingdom. The secrets aren't given to everyone to know. But Jesus said, 'he who hears the word and understands it, he indeed bears fruit.' Mt. 13:23 So your statement isn't exactly true. The ones who don't understand, while they may be believers, they do not necessarily bear much fruit. In fact many fall away.

There is no indication that the reason they fell away is lack of understanding. The ENTIRE PARABLE is given to test people and their openness, their "soil", to the Word of God and its message. One doesn't have to be a brain surgeon or a theologian to "understand" the Gospel. It is quite simple. Jesus came to save mankind. Believe in God, repent and you'll be freed from sin.

It is not a matter of "understanding", but a matter of persevering in that belief.

Note, the group that fell away began in joy. They believed. Believed what? Believed in the Word. What was the Word? The Gospel message that Jesus came to save mankind from sin. They believed it and were joyous. For awhile. However, the temptations of the world set in, NOT the "lack of understanding".

What was sown on rocky ground; this man receives the word with joy, yet has no root in himself. He endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. This man had no depth of soil, and therefore no root in himself. It can be taken that he had no strong conviction/belief. His heart is rocky. We might say he is not sure of himself or we could say he isn't secure in his belief.

As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world, and the desire for riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

We already know that the Jews guilty of handing Him over REFUSED to believe. It was not a matter of "understanding" but a matter of not believing the CLEAR words that Christ was the Messiah.

No. They were devils. Jesus called them vipers (offspring of the devil). It wasn't that they refused. God isn't going to let vipers believe and be saved. No. God blinded them to his Son; they couldn't see who he was.

They had faith for awhile and they fell away. Absolutely no commentary on different levels of faith or understanding. Christ places the difference upon those who persevered and resisted temptation. It was THEY who were fruitful.

The parable says, 'As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it'. So I don't know why you count understanding as nothing. Don't you know, 'the LORD by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens' Pr. 3:19

Then Jesus asked his disciples, "Have you understood all this?" They said to him, "Yes." And Jesus said to them, "Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old." Mt. 13:51,52. That's why I quote the OT and the NT.

 

[MarkT]

They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

FOR A WHILE BELIEVE...

Repeat and believe. Mark, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you are wrong. Accept the Word of Christ, not your word. Open your heart and mind to what the Bible says, not to what you say.

Ok. Then which man are you - The first, second, third or fourth? Notice the fourth man doesn't fall away. Which man would you want to be? Notice the fourth man understands the word of the kingdom.

 

[MarkT]

This one verse (among numerous others by themselves) destroys the entire rotten false teaching of "once saved always saved". Man can believe in the Word and fall away. There is no "magic point of understanding" that MAN must achieve before he is "officially" saved. The bible says repent and believe - desire to be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit, and you will be saved - past sins are washed away.

What is it to you if they believe they will be saved? So do you, don't you? And don't tell me it's because you're more righteous than they are. What's the difference between you and your brother? You both believe you will be saved.

 

[XTruth]

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:20-22

Apparently, in your mind, fantasy = spiritual thinking, because that is what it takes to ignore the implications of Sacred Scriptures when it completely crushes your false idea of justification and salvation, but, after "being there, done that", you still don't get it...

No amount of denial will save you here. Peter is speaking about formerly "saved" individuals who were once illuminated by the Spirit of God. Better if they never were??? Strong condemnation against your idea of 'once saved always saved".

Very strong.

Like here is what Peter does to OSAS:

Let's break it down for you...

AFTER they escaped pollutions of the world.
RECEIVED the knowledge of Christ
BECAME illuminated by receiving the Spirit...

Sound familar? How about this from Jesus?

Received the Word with Joy...
Believed for awhile...

And then what did these saved people, saved from their former life of sin, do?

ENTANGLED AGAIN in their past ways
RETURNED to the vomit of their past life

FELL AWAY...

Peter says it would be BETTER IF THEY NEVER KNEW THE WAYS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!

So much for remaining justified in God's eyes despite a sinful life.

Neither the Jews or the Christians subscribed to such a twisting of the Sacred Word of God. You are spreading a false "gospel" that is so thoroughly denied in Scriptures. It is a shame that an "old Christian" refuses to see it. Obedience to God saves to heaven, not obstinate denial of God's Word to keep your sacred cow afloat...

Obey God.... You'll be saved. There is the solution to being eternally secure...

Regards

11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. 12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him. Proverbs 26:11-12

I'm not saying you have interpreted this passage wrong, b/c you offered no interpretation. This is why I'm a little confused on why you offered it. Verse 11 is quoted in 2 Pet. 2:22 where it refers to backsliders going back into sin.

12 Examples of returning to sin:
1) Aaron and Israel (Dt.32:16; Ex.32:32-33; 1 Cor.10:1-11; Jude 5)
2) Nadab and Abihu (Lev.10:1-20)
3) Korah and company (Num. 16)
4) King Saul (1 Sam.10:13-24; 16:12-23; 1 Chr.10:13-14)
5) Many Disciples of Jesus (Jn.6:66)
6) David (Ps.51; 2 Sam.12)
7) Judas (Ps.41:9; 55:12-14; 69:25-28; 109:8; Mat.26:24; Jn.13:18; Acts 1)
8) Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-14)
9) Many Galatians (Gal. 1:6-9; 5:4; 6:7-8)
10) Many early Christians (1 Tim.1:19-20; 5:8-20; 6:1-21; 2:Tim.2:18-21)
11) Demas (2 Tim.4:10)
12) Whole churches (Rev.2-3)

Verse 12 is a lesson in self-conceit, self-importance, and self-exaltation. Man should never overestimate himself, for it closes the gate to real wisdom, which gives a true evaluation of self.

Proverbs 19:20 "Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end."

As you can see, I'm more than a little confused on why you gave that passage, considering you believe that it is impossible to ever be condemned for transgressing God's laws (1 Jn.3:4, 8-10) more than once in a life. Can you please explain your position with the verses you gave us?

Thanks

 

[lovely]

I can tell you what I thought about when I read Michael's scripture, and Joe's too.

The word fool, which us used to describe an unbeliever.

Joe's passage when read entirely refers to false prophets, springs without water, tares?. The have at 'taste' some 'knowledge', but they remain vain and presumptuous.

2 Peter 2:1-20
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning


Describing false prophets again, John says they went out because they were not of us.
I do not think these passages are describing regenerate men.

1 John 2:18-19
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

A description of a regenerate man is one who does overcome, who walks in obedience and abides in Jesus.

1 John 2:1-6

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Another description of unregenerate men, fools...

Matthew 7

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Fools will fall away, but even though they hear, they do not obey. We should encourage believers to make their election sure because of the false teachers who do not preach that one should follow Christ in obedience. Enternal salvation is for the sons, but many are on the broad way and they do not even realize it.

Michael, I hope you don't mind me sharing my thoughts here, but these things came to my mind last night after reading Joe's post, and then your's fit right in. The Lord bless all of you.

 

[XTruth]

I can tell you what I thought about when I read Michael's scripture, and Joe's too.

The word fool, which us used to describe an unbeliever.

Joe's passage when read entirely refers to false prophets, springs without water, tares?. The have at 'taste' some 'knowledge', but they remain vain and presumptuous.

2 Peter 2:1-20
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning


Describing false prophets again, John says they went out because they were not of us.
I do not think these passages are describing regenerate men.

1 John 2:18-19
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

A description of a regenerate man is one who does overcome, who walks in obedience and abides in Jesus.

1 John 2:1-6

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Another description of unregenerate men, fools...

Matthew 7

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Fools will fall away, but even though they hear, they do not obey. We should encourage believers to make their election sure because of the false teachers who do not preach that one should follow Christ in obedience. Enternal salvation is for the sons, but many are on the broad way and they do not even realize it.

Michael, I hope you don't mind me sharing my thoughts here, but these things came to my mind last night after reading Joe's post, and then your's fit right in. The Lord bless all of you.

Proverbs 14:9
"Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour."

Who on this thread shuns the law of sin? Who on this thread says "Sin can't condemn me?" You make a mock at sin. The righteous are defined as those without sin. And here's something that's continually ignored by your side of the belief, ONLY PAST SINS are forgiven (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9).
So just b/c one has been made righteous in times past, doesn't make them righteous in their future sin. Not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord," will enter into the kingdom through the narrow gate from the narrow path that absolutely no sin is on (Lk.13:24-27).

1 Peter 417 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator."

Your position must be that doctrine that was birthed from the unconditional eternal security doctrine, which is the never were saved doctrine. If you take the whole of Scripture, even the very Scripture that you just used, then you'll find that doctrine to be flawed. As for the false prophets/teachers, there is proof that many were saved (((Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Tim.2:17-18), Alexander and Hymenaeus (1 Tim.1:19-20), Demas (Col.4:14; Ph'm 24; 2 Tim.4:10), etc. ))) But even if they were never saved, and many false teachers weren't I'm sure, then that doesn't explain away the warnings to the saved that these people can lead us astray and into err. If the "truly regenerated Christian" cannot possibly fall from grace or be led outside of the will of God, then there would be no warnings.

 

[lovely]

XTruth,

I apologize if I offended you. I assure you, I am not on anyone's side, but the Lord's...and am seeking His Word to change me and help me to know Him, not to support a doctrine. I have been trying to just learn the Truth of the Word in thise area for some time now. Anyway, you are my brother, and I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me, and though we share some disagreement on the matter I do not categorize you as being on a side other than Christ's and His children.

I do agree with what you said about sin, as far as your last post, and with the idea that we are to walk holy and consecrated to the Lord...abiding in Him, not sin, but always walking in repentance. I wonder if you are not reading into my post? Either way, thanks for the Scriptures. I will read them, and I will consider your rebuke that I am mocking sin.

The Lord bless you.

 

[francisdesales]

11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. 12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.[/color] Proverbs 26:11-12[/size]

???? Is this some strange and far-fetched attampt to avoid what Peter DOES say, rather than try to make some cryptic connection to the word "fool" used in the bible???

The word "fool" doesn't always refer to an unbeliever, mind you. ESPECIALLY when Peter very clearly says they were enlightened. They were believers. For awhile....

Or is that a commentary on my picture of Peter beating OSAS with a chair???

Regards

 

[Anna1334]

Solo
What is sad is that those who believe that one can negate God's Salvation by not "keeping the faith," is common among young believers and those who do not understand justification. Many who are not even born again believe they can lose the Salvation that they do not even have.

Wrong I was saved before ii backslide and now I like the prodigal son return again.

All of the examples that one can show as "proof" that one can lose their gift of eternal life only show the loss of living a successful life here on earth prior to Christ Jesus return, and the loss of rewards. No where does the Scriptures show that once one is born again, born from above, one can lose the gift of eternal life with Christ Jesus. That idea is purely a carnal one.

Been there, done that.

Good news brown
What is sad is that those who believe that one can negate God's Salvation by not "keeping the faith," is common among young believers and those who do not understand justification. Many who are not even born again believe they can lose the Salvation that they do not even have.

Sorry to say but I was perfectly saved before I backslid.

All of the examples that one can show as "proof" that one can lose their gift of eternal life only show the loss of living a successful life here on earth prior to Christ Jesus return, and the loss of rewards. No where does the Scriptures show that once one is born again, born from above, one can lose the gift of eternal life with Christ Jesus. That idea is purely a carnal one.

Are you calling Yeshua a liar in Revelation 2 when He says repent and if you do not repent I will remove your lamp stand from it’s place.
He is speaking to the church of Ephesus but it is also a picture of what happens to the believer if he also remains in the backslid den state. All the OSAS need to carefully read the letter to the churches in Rev.

Let me tell you something from my own experience, I started as a Baptist believer, but every time I came across certain verses i always wonder why do they contradict what the Pastor is saying; and they burned deep in my soul. Please Christians go with your soul and with the Word not with men’s false teachings. There are a lot of IF’S in the Word of Yahweh and people ignore them.

Jude 3. Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Obey Him if He is boss!!
5. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. This is what will happen to all who leave Yeshua and follow after the flesh.
8. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13. Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
I guess this says it all.

please Lord show all the IF'S in your Word. :amen