Eternal security or conditional security?

[FreeGrace]

Ok, just show the scripture that Jesus taught us, whereby a person gets burned in fire that is not a reference to hell.

chessman already did that. In his explanation, he pointed out that there was no mention of hell. iow, "burned up" wasn't "burned up in hell".

This is in line with my explanation that Jesus was using an agricultural metaphor about what farmers did with non-producing branches; they are discarded in a fire. It's a leap to assume that being put in a fire is equivalent to being put into hell.

And, chessman brings up an excellent question [edited] is going to hell based on not producing any fruit, since the point of John 15 is about whether one produces fruit or not??

 

[FreeGrace]

Good! Yes, I believe they/we do all believe this. You might even say Jesus' resurrection is elementary to the Gospel message (see HEB 6:1-2)

Hebrews 6:1-2 (LEB) Therefore, leaving behind the elementary message about Christ, ... resurrection of the dead ...​

So if I told you that I believed the Gospel, but then also told you I didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead (i.e. ther is no such thing as 'resurrection' would you say that was impossible? The two beliefs are incompatible with each orther, right?

There are many people who believe in Christ but are unfamiliar or ignorant of many of the doctrines in the Bible.

How many truly understand what spirituality is and how it applies to spiritual growth? Seems not many.

And look at all the debate between Armininanism and Calvinism; total opposites on many points. Then add in the theology of free grace to the mix. So, lots of views.

So, instead of saying what you presented is "impossible", I'd say the person was just confused.

 

[FreeGrace]

Belief stops when you have obtained what you are believing for.

Where is that taught in Scripture?

I can believe that I am going to have something, based on the promise of another. And when I receive what I believe I will have, I STILL believe in what I have.

So I don't understand your statement.

It seems to suggest that WHEN one receives eternal life, they don't believe in eternal life any more.

Please clarify.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But where is it taught in Scripture, [edited]?

It just seems impossible for such an important idea to not be very clearly and plainly spelled out in the Bible if true.

The problem is every time I show you where in the Bible it clearly says you have to continue in the Word to be saved you blow it off:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

So, it's impossible [edited] to continue to contend that no one has shown [edited] where in the Bible it says there is indeed a condition attached to the free gift of salvation. That condition is that you continue in the word of the gospel through which you received that salvation. Which must be acknowledged in interpretation of the 'if' in the passage the Corinthians are doing in order to be saved.

As far as the OP, none of the scriptures in the OP are made untrue by the passage I just quoted above (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB). But the doctrine's misuse of the scriptures in the OP makes 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB not true. The doctrine is the one that causes the contradiction of scripture, and is therefore, false.

[Edited so the topic is addressed and not the person.]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's a leap to assume that being put in a fire is equivalent to being put into hell.

Not a leap at all. It's clearly spelled out in scripture that the fire where fruitless people go is the eternal punishment of the lake of fire at the Judgment:

"30‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”" (Matthew 13:30 NASB)

"41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”" (Matthew 25:41-46 NASB)

 

[JLB]

Where is that taught in Scripture?

I can believe that I am going to have something, based on the promise of another. And when I receive what I believe I will have, I STILL believe in what I have.

So I don't understand your statement.

It seems to suggest that WHEN one receives eternal life, they don't believe in eternal life any more.

Please clarify.

Why would someone still believe for salvation they have received?

That's the difference in having faith for salvation, and having the reality of the salvation you have faith for.

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

We receive salvation at the end of our faith, when we obtain the reality of what we have believed.

That's what it's called the end of our faith, because faith comes to an end, as we have obtained the reality of what we have hoped for.

Faith is not the reality, but the substance of the thing you are hoping for, the evidence of the thing not seen, not realized, not manifested, not obtained... but hoped for.

We have the hope of salvation; the resurrection from the dead, that we will have a body that will never die.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good! Yes, I believe they/we do all believe this. You might even say Jesus' resurrection is elementary to the Gospel message (see HEB 6:1-2)

Hebrews 6:1-2 (LEB) Therefore, leaving behind the elementary message about Christ, ... resurrection of the dead ...​

So if I told you that I believed the Gospel, but then also told you I didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead (i.e. ther is no such thing as 'resurrection' would you say that was impossible? The two beliefs are incompatible with each orther, right?

See the rest of Heb 6

The Corinthians received the pure gospel of salvation from Paul and are saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB). This is not in dispute. Even OSAS doctrine acknowledges that. But then Paul warns them that if they stray from the gospel he shared with them and instead reject the resurrection of Christ, the word of the gospel, as some of them have done, then their faith is in vain, they're still in their sins. (1 Corinthians 15:14-18 NASB). He says they've reverted to a gospel that can not save them because it is a gospel that excludes the justification that comes by Christ's resurrection (Romans 4:25 NASB) leaving them without the necessary justification for salvation and dead in their sins (vs. 18). But OSAS doctrine says a loss of faith can not do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why would someone still believe for salvation they have received?

That's the difference in having faith for salvation, and having the reality of the salvation you have faith for.

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

We receive salvation at the end of our faith, when we obtain the reality of what we have believed.

That's what it's called the end of our faith, because faith comes to an end, as we have obtained the reality of what we have hoped for.

Faith is not the reality, but the substance of the thing you are hoping for, the evidence of the thing not seen, not realized, not manifested, not obtained... but hoped for.

We have the hope of salvation; the resurrection from the dead, that we will have a body that will never die.


JLB

"Lord, haste the day when my faith shall be sight
The clouds be rolled back as a scroll;
The trump shall resound, and the Lord shall descend"

It is Well With My Soul -- Horatio Spafford

 

[FreeGrace]

The problem is every time I show you where in the Bible it clearly says you have to continue in the Word to be saved you blow it off:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

The real problem is that this verse doesn't say or mean what you claim it does.

We know from lots of Scripture that WHEN one believes the gospel, they ARE saved, and WILL NEVER PERISH. The Greek is NOT "hold fast" as in a continuing action in order to continue to have the result. So, when the Word says "you are saved if you hold fast the gospel", it means "you are saved if you possess the word." Which is to say, "you are saved if you have eternal life".

And we absolutely do know that one is saved if one has eternal life. That is the theme of John's gospel.

So, it's impossible for you to continue to contend that no one has shown you where in the Bible it says there is indeed a condition attached to the free gift of salvation.

[Edited]

There is only one condition attached to the free gift of salvation: to believe in Jesus Christ.
Eph 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

That condition is that you continue in the word of the gospel through which you received that salvation.

But no lexicon says that the single Greek word mistranslated "hold fast" means anything of continuing.

Since it does mean "to possess", the onus is on the LOS side to show verses that teach that one is capable to severe themselves from eternal life. All without a smidgen of assumption, btw.

Which even you acknowledge in your own interpretation of the 'if' in the passage the Corinthians are doing in order to be saved.

If one believes, they ARE saved. How does my acknowledgement support LOS?

As far as the OP, none of the scriptures in the OP are made untrue by the passage I just quoted above (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

But...all of the verses in the OP render the assumptions and understandings of the LOS side untrue regarding all the verses they use in trying to defend their LOS position. Both cannot be true.

If none of the verses in the OP teach eternal security, then just what do they teach?

But your doctrine's misuse of the scriptures in the OP makes 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB not true.

I don't understand this at all. You will need to prove your claim by thorough explanation.

Your doctrine is the one that causes the contradiction of scripture, and is therefore, false, not mine.

Once again, you'll need to prove this claim by thorough explanation.

If, if the OP verses do teach something other than ES, what do they teach?

[edited]

 

[FreeGrace]

Not a leap at all. It's clearly spelled out in scripture that the fire where fruitless people go is the eternal punishment of the lake of fire at the Judgment:

So, just to be clear, this really isn't about just those who cease to believe. It's also about lazy production-less believers, who STILL believe but just don't produce fruit.

Seems you're moving the goal posts.

So, you think that God's plan is to eternally kill anyone who ceases to believe or who just doesn't produce any fruit.

"30‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”" (Matthew 13:30 NASB)

"41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”" (Matthew 25:41-46 NASB)

You will have to prove the connection between these verses and John 15. [edited]

 

[FreeGrace]

Why would someone still believe for salvation they have received?

So you no longer believe that you are saved??? That's how I'm taking your question. If you have received salvation, why wouldn't you believe that you are saved? I can't make sense of your statement.

That's the difference in having faith for salvation, and having the reality of the salvation you have faith for.

Not helpful for understanding your previous statement.

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

Please explain what the word for "hope" here means.

We receive salvation at the end of our faith, when we obtain the reality of what we have believed.

Actually, we receive salvation WHEN we believe, according to Jesus in John 5:24. Which, btw, is the "end of our faith". It seems you've substituted the phrase "end of our life" for "end of our faith". Why? The Bible does NOT say "end of our life".

That's what it's called the end of our faith, because faith comes to an end, as we have obtained the reality of what we have hoped for.

That doesn't make sense.

Faith is not the reality, but the substance of the thing you are hoping for, the evidence of the thing not seen, not realized, not manifested, not obtained... but hoped for.

The Greek word for "hope" means 'confident expectation'. Not a "wishing for", or hoping to have.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

From Jesus' own words: I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:28. The "them" in that verse are His sheep, and the context goes back to v.9 as to how one becomes one of His sheep: I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and go in and out, and find pasture.

Note that Jesus used the aorist tense for "enter". It only takes a point in time (1 time) entrance (or faith in Christ to be saved). And the result is v.28; they (His sheep) WILL NEVER PERISH.

Keep being one of his sheep by believing to the very end and you will indeed never ever perish. Promise. You can take that to the bank.

Such thinking comes from the verses in the first 5 points of the OP.

The point I was making is OSAS answers the argument of whether or not eternal life means you have it forever and can not lose it with the circular reasoning that eternal life means you have it forever and can not lose it. That's why so many people are literally incapable of seeing the truth about non-OSAS in the scriptures. They have been trained to automatically answer the question of whether eternal life means you have it forever and can not lose it with the argument that eternal life means you have it forever and can not lose it. That's called 'circular reasoning'--using the question itself as the answer to the question.

From http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/think/circular.htm
"Circular Reasoning is an attempt to support a statement by simply repeating the statement in different or stronger terms. In this fallacy, the reason given is nothing more than a restatement of the conclusion that poses as the reason for the conclusion." {Circular Reasoning by Stephen Hagin} (emphasis mine)​

So, any argument that eternal life means forever, never to be lost, because Jesus called it eternal life is simply not a valid argument for OSAS.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, you think that God's plan is to eternally kill anyone who ceases to believe or who just doesn't produce any fruit.

It's God's intention to eternally kill anyone who is fruitless because they have no faith in Jesus Christ.

But the point was (in direct contradiction to what you insist) that it's easy to see that the branches that are cut out of Christ and are burned is a reference to the Judgment he himself speaks about when fruitless branches (which includes the ones who have become disconnected from the life giving sap of the root because of unbelief--Romans 11:20 NASB ) will indeed be tossed into the lake of Fire.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually, we receive salvation WHEN we believe, according to Jesus in John 5:24. Which, btw, is the "end of our faith". It seems you've substituted the phrase "end of our life" for "end of our faith". Why? The Bible does NOT say "end of our life".

"...His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (the end of this life)." (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB italics in original, bold and parenthesis mine)

Salvation is a reality now, but it ain't over until the fat lady sings. But OSAS doctrine consistently ignores the plain scriptures that show us the entirety of our salvation and our inheritance yet to come. Add to that the fact that OSAS doctrine also ignores the plain scriptures that teach of the necessity to believe to the very end to keep what you have now and receive what is yet to come. Scriptures that your OP completely ignores.

[edited]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You will have to prove the connection between these verses and John 15. Just finding verses that have "fire" in them isn't how it's done.

Oh, you can see it's much more than just finding verses with fire in them. They talk very specifically about not having any fruit, and as a result, being tossed into the lake of fire. Show me that isn't true if you really believe that's not true.

 

[chessman]

The Corinthians received the pure gospel of salvation from Paul and are saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

Every single one of them?

 

[JLB]

So you no longer believe that you are saved???

Yes, that's it, go back to ad hominem and logical fallacy!

If you have received salvation, why wouldn't you believe that you are saved? I can't make sense of your statement.

I have salvation by faith.

Please explain what the word for "hope" here means.

It's very simple. Paul is explaining the salvation to come when the sons of God are revealed at the resurrection.

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:22-25


Faith is the substance of things hoped for.


Do you have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation?

Actually, we receive salvation WHEN we believe, according to Jesus in John 5:24. Which, btw, is the "end of our faith". It seems you've substituted the phrase "end of our life" for "end of our faith". Why? The Bible does NOT say "end of our life".

The end of our faith, is when we receive the salvation of our soul.

Not the beginning of our faith.

Not during the middle of our faith, but the end of our faith is when we receive the salvation of our soul.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

It's at the revelation, the return of Jesus Christ, that we will receive the salvation we have now by faith in Him.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28



24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24


Those who believe have eternal life.

Those who believe for a while then no longer believe; no longer have what is required by the Lord for eternal life, which is to believe.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Every single one of them?

Every one of them that believed. And who believed before the cunning of the enemy crept in to lead some of them astray from the pure gospel of Christ Paul had preached to them and which they received, and which they have taken their stand upon:

3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed." (1 Corinthians 15:3,11 NASB bold mine, italics in original)

"I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. 3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully." (2 Corinthians 11:2-4 NASB bold mine, italics in original)

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? (That's the craftiness of the serpent leading them astray) 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished." (1 Corinthians 15:12 NASB bold mine, italics in original)

"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

Synopsis:

Paul preached the real, pure gospel to them, which included the resurrection of Christ.
They received it and were saved.
The craftiness of the serpent is at work among them to lead them astray into a gospel they did not hear, nor receive from him--a gospel that does not have the resurrection of Christ in it and which, therefore, can not save.
You have to hold fast to the gospel originally preached and received to you to be saved.​

But some OSAS doctrine says you are still saved even if you don't hold fast to the gospel originally preached to you and which you received and were saved by.

 

[JLB]

chessman already did that. In his explanation, he pointed out that there was no mention of hell. iow, "burned up" wasn't "burned up in hell".

He denied that thrown into the fire and burned means; thrown into the fire and burned.

How is that an explanation?

And, chessman brings up an excellent question [edited] is going to hell based on not producing any fruit, since the point of John 15 is about whether one produces fruit or not??

Let's see what Jesus said.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.... 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-2,5-6

• Those who are in Him, that do not bear fruit, God the Father removes them.
• Those who do not remain in Him, are throw into the fire and burned.

Looks to me like those who don't produce fruit, are removed, thrown into the fire and burned.

I guess all that is left is for you to explain what "thrown into the fire and burned" means, if you are claiming that it doesn't mean;
thrown into the fire and burned.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Keep being one of his sheep by believing to the very end and you will indeed never ever perish. Promise. You can take that to the bank.

But John 10:9 doesn't give one that interpretation. Jesus said this: “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The word "enters" is in the aorist tense, meaning a point in time action. One could say a one time action, for there is no duration of time associated with the aorist tense. And after entering one time, speaking of faith in Christ, the one entering will be saved, and "will go in and out and find pasture".

There is nothing in the verse to suggest one must keep entering to keep saved.

The point I was making is OSAS answers the argument of whether or not eternal life means you have it forever and can not lose it with the circular reasoning that eternal life means you have it forever and can not lose it.

But eternal means forever and ever.

That's why so many people are literally incapable of seeing the truth about non-OSAS in the scriptures.

I provided 5 sets of verses that I believe clearly teach ES. But if they teach something other than ES, what do they teach?

They have been trained to automatically answer the question of whether eternal life means you have it forever and can not lose it with the argument that eternal life means you have it forever and can not lose it.

If it can be lost, what Scripture says so? There are verses about God's gifts being irrevocable, so we know that God will not take His gifts away. And eternal life is a gift of God.

And Jesus said "will never perish" in John 3:16 and 10:28. Doesn't "will never perish" mean "not ever for ever"?

So, any argument that eternal life means forever, never to be lost, because Jesus called it eternal life is simply not a valid argument for OSAS.

Please define what the word "eternal" means.