Eternal security or conditional security?

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"2 major problems with your line of thought.

First, there are NO verses that tell us that salvation can be lost."

Then explain the 'if' in 1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB.

I still have no idea why anyone would think that verse even suggests loss of salvation. I've already explained that verse a number of times.

Paul says the Corinthians are saved if they hold fast the word he preached to them.

Considering the whole of the context, he is basically saying this: "you Corinthians are saved IF you have believed the gospel I preaches to you".

1 Cor 15:11 - "Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed." That was his point.

OSAS makes his statement utterly meaningless if it's true that they are presently saved if they DON'T hold fast the word he preached to them.

No, it doesn't and you have not shown so either.

OSAS is the one that decided Paul was including eternal life/salvation in the gifts to Israel that are irrevocable.

It is LOS doctrine that has decided that Paul was NOT including eternal life in the gifts that are irrevocable, all without any evidence to support that decision.

In fact, there is NOTHING in Romans about "gifts to Israel". That is an unsubstantiated assumption by LOS doctrine. Paul gets to decide what he meant by "gifts of God" in 11:29. And he had already noted the gifts of God previously IN THAT SAME EPISTLE. So context is on the side of ES, not LOS.

The text doesn't actually say that. OSAS decided it was included in the irrevocable gifts. We can see from 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB that you are saved if you hold fast the word preached.

lol. First you note "the text", and then you LEAP all the way from Rom 11:29 to 1 Cor 15:1-2. They are NOT in context with each other.

The context for Rom 11:29 is ROMANS, period. Where Paul had already described what he meant by "gifts of God".

That means salvation can not be irrevocable simply because it is a gift.

Paul MEANS that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

It has a condition attached.

Sure. Paul answered that question in Eph 1:13. Those who have believed ARE SEALED "in Him".

The condition is that you presently hold fast the gospel to be presently saved.

Which, btw, says NOTHING about the future at all. One must assume to get to the future.

But Paul put that to rest in Rom 8:38,39 - 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now, the onus is on LOS doctrine to prove that "nor things to come" excludes ceasing to believe.

That's what OSAS has to refute in order to defend salvation as a free gift that can't be taken back because it has no conditions attached.

The LOS doctine is refuted by Paul soundly, as already shown, which has NOT been refuted.

But all OSAS has been doing is simply restating it's argument, that salvation/eternal life is a free gift that is irrevocable.

Why not? The Bible tells us that eternal life is a gift of God. And that God's gifts are irrevocable. I am truly sorry for those who do not see the direct connection. LOS doctrine has failed to prove that Paul wasn't including ALL the gifts he had previously described in his letter to the Romans.

The problem is OSAS interpretation of scripture doesn't fit the plain words of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB. OSAS has yet to show that the plain words of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB are consistent with it's argument that there are zero conditions attached to the free gift of salvation/eternal life and, therefore, it is irrevocable.

Since OSAS doesn't bother to use 1 Cor 15:1-2 to prove it from Scripture, your claim here is irrelevant.

OSAS has been proven from the verses in the OP.

It has yet to show that Paul is NOT saying in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB that you are (presently) saved IF you hold fast the gospel you heard.

Paul SAID that one is saved if they possess the gospel. So what? LOS keeps trying to LEAP to the future.

Reiterating OSAS belief is not what you have to do here. What you have to do is prove 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB is NOT saying "you are saved if you hold fast the word I preached to you".

Nope. LOS has to demonstrate what ALL of the verses in the OP teach, since LOS denies they teach ES.

 

[Douglas Summers]

And to throw a wrench in that...........while religion is out looking for the "sinner" who really isn't saved. Religion has many more that look really good, talk the talk and have cleaned up their lives and are NOT saved.

This is why "lifestyle" is always brought up by the religious folks. "life style" is their salvation.

Religion~~Satans ace trump.

Hi Grace, I believe the teaching of Christ in (Matt. 12:43-45) is a good example of self reformation that fits your post.

 

[MarkT]

Your charge is false. Of course only those "in Christ" (believers) have the gift of eternal life. I haven't ignored that. And once given, God's gifts are irrevocable. Where is the verse where Paul was clear about EXCLUDING the gift of eternal life from Rom 11:29? Huh? I don't find any such verse. Yet the LOS doctrine keeps insisting that Paul never included the gift of eternal life in Rom 11:29.

You're doing it again. I wanted you to see the word "For", as in, Paul is explaining what he previously said, and once again you don't follow instruction. Paul is talking about his country men, and their standing according to the promise, to answer the question, 'Did God reject his people Israel'? Romans 11:1 To that question he said they have not stumbled so as to fall. Romans 11:11They are enemies of the gospel but they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. Romans 11:28 Then he says, "For" the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable". Why are they irrevocable? Because God keeps his promises. Previous to that he said, "They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; Romans 9:4

You could at least look up the word ‘irrevocable’ and see when and how it is used. irrevocable |ˌadjective | not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final: an irrevocable step.

revoke |verb1 [ with obj. ] put an end to the validity or operation of (a decree, decision, or promise): the men appealed and the sentence was revoked.

God's word can not be changed.

Anyways, Romans 11:29 doesn't say anything about losing or not losing your salvation.

 

[JLB]

Why would I have to do that? Jesus Himself tells us that some "believe for a while" and then fall away from their faith.

They fall away, which means to depart from Christ. Hebrews 3:12-14

The very thing that Jesus said would cause those who were in Him to be cast into the fire and burned.

Fall away in Luke 8 is the same Greek word in Hebrews 3:12

Depart from the living God...

JLB

 

[MarkT]

This describes ALL believers. And from Eph 4:30, ALL believers are sealed FOR the day of redemption.

You're forgetting there are many false prophets and false teachers. The Ephesians heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation and they believed in Christ. The gospel is the thing. Even Paul says so. That's why I said the branches are dead. Because dead branches can not receive the water which is the Spirit and the words Jesus gave us. Have you ever seen a withered branch? It's leaves are brown. It is ready to break off. It doesn't bear fruit. All plants need water. No plant is watered just once. To that end Apollos watered the church at Corinth. 1 Cor. 3:5-9

 

[JLB]

Eternal life if you do this and that gospel.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:7-8

 

[chessman]

Fall away in Luke 8 is the same Greek word in Hebrews 3:12

Depart from the living God...

Would you suggest Jairus became de-saved when he "fell down" at Jesus' feet?

Luk 8:41 And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house:
​

They fall away, which means to depart from Christ.

Are you sure that's what the word means? Doesn't it just simply mean to fall, not to become de-saved?

Luk 14:5 (KJV) And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day? ​

Did the donkey and ox become 'de-saved' when they fell into a pit?

 

[FreeGrace]

You're doing it again. I wanted you to see the word "For", as in, Paul is explaining what he previously said, and once again you don't follow instruction.

Where am supposed to follow your instruction?? When were you put in charge? I follow Scripture. And the "for" doesn't change anything. Yes, it's part of the text, but does NOT in any way "interpret" how to understand what Paul meant by God's gifts.

Paul is talking about his country men, and their standing according to the promise, to answer the question, 'Did God reject his people Israel'? Romans 11:1 To that question he said they have not stumbled so as to fall. Romans 11:11They are enemies of the gospel but they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. Romans 11:28 Then he says, "For" the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable". Why are they irrevocable?

Hold on there. Before one can even ask the question "why are God's gifts irrevocable", one MUST answer the question: WHAT are God's irrevocable gifts? And you have not proven that Paul didn't mean the gift of eternal life. We KNOW what Paul meant because Paul had already described what God's gifts ARE: justification and eternal life.

Because God keeps his promises.

Yes, He does. And here's just one of them: and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28

LOS doctrine preaches that those who have eternal life may end up perishing in the lake of fire. LOS doctrine is directly contrary to Jesus' promise.

You could at least look up the word ‘irrevocable’ and see when and how it is used. irrevocable |ˌadjective | not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final: an irrevocable step.

How about considering the Greek word, which means "not to be repented of" and "irrevocable". The Greek scholars who wrote the lexicons know how the word was used and translated it "irrevocable". iow, God does NOT take back His gifts.

God's word can not be changed.

That's what I believe.

Anyways, Romans 11:29 doesn't say anything about losing or not losing your salvation.

Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. Rom 11:29 says God's gifts are irrevocable.

And Paul NEVER EVER made any comment about excluding the gift of eternal life from the gifts of God that are irrevocable. That's the problem for LOS doctrine.

So, Rom 11:29 says EVERYTHING about eternal security and OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace]

They fall away, which means to depart from Christ. Hebrews 3:12-14

Yes, one can leave the faith. But you have yet to prove from Scripture that leaving the faith results in loss of salvation. And leaving the faith, or departing from Christ does NOT break the sealing with the Holy Spirit, in which the believer is placed "IN CHRIST".

We don't place ourselves IN Christ, and we surely cannot remove ourselves FROM Him. Your opinion is not supported from Scripture.

Believers are sealed FOR the day of redemption. What does that teach you?

 

[FreeGrace]

You're forgetting there are many false prophets and false teachers.

How can I forget such a thing? The Christian forums are full of contradicting teaching.

The Ephesians heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation and they believed in Christ. The gospel is the thing. Even Paul says so. That's why I said the branches are dead. Because dead branches can not receive the water which is the Spirit and the words Jesus gave us.

Seems you're trying to mix reality with metaphors. I don't recommend it.

Have you ever seen a withered branch? It's leaves are brown. It is ready to break off. It doesn't bear fruit. All plants need water. No plant is watered just once. To that end Apollos watered the church at Corinth. 1 Cor. 3:5-9

Jesus used the metaphor of drinking for believing in Him, and He said that those who drink once will never thirst. What does that say to you? Jn 4:14

 

[FreeGrace]

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:7-8

Wow. So one gets eternal life by being good. I guess Jesus was wrong to demand that people believe in Him in order to HAVE eternal life. Jn 5:24

 

[Cygnus]

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:7-8

Paul is showing what a person who has received grace, Gods kindness, looks like and what a person with a hard and impatient heart looks like.

Salvation is not by works. Paul has made that quite clear un numerous passages.

 

[Cygnus]

Wow. So one gets eternal life by being good. I guess Jesus was wrong to demand that people believe in Him in order to HAVE eternal life. Jn 5:24

That verse has also been translated in this fashion:
"to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;"
Here's the bible hub parallel translations of Romans 2:7.

To translate that verse as works equals salvation would be a strong contradiction to the rest of the inspired writings of Paul

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, one can leave the faith. But you have yet to prove from Scripture that leaving the faith results in loss of salvation. And leaving the faith, or departing from Christ does NOT break the sealing with the Holy Spirit, in which the believer is placed "IN CHRIST".

We don't place ourselves IN Christ, and we surely cannot remove ourselves FROM Him. Your opinion is not supported from Scripture.

Believers are sealed FOR the day of redemption. What does that teach you?

We don't place ourselves IN Christ, and we surely cannot remove ourselves FROM Him.
+1

 

[gr8grace3]

That verse has also been translated in this fashion:
"to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;"
Here's the bible hub parallel translations of Romans 2:7.

To translate that verse as works equals salvation would be a strong contradiction to the rest of the inspired writings of Paul

It is because Paul is laying out the principle of salvation and not the mechanics of salvation.

In verse 7 the "good" or"good work" is SINGULAR................Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

This is the work of God........
John 6:29~~New American Standard Bible
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

The mechanics of salvation is faith alone in Christ alone.
The principles of salvation~~glory,honor,immortality and eternal life.

 

[JLB]

Paul is showing what a person who has received grace, Gods kindness, looks like and what a person with a hard and impatient heart looks like.

Salvation is not by works. Paul has made that quite clear un numerous passages.

That's right. Paul, the same Paul who wrote the words from Romans 2, teaches us that we are not saved by works.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

We are saved by grace, through faith.

No one can work to earn salvation.

However a person must obey the Gospel, in order to be saved.

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved...But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:8-13,16-17


JLB

 

[JLB]

Wow. So one gets eternal life by being good. I guess Jesus was wrong to demand that people believe in Him in order to HAVE eternal life. Jn 5:24

What did Jesus mean by believe?

Your Gospel seems to teach that a person can be saved by grace through faith, and then turn away from Him and no longer believe, and back to a lifestyle of evil, even idolatry, and continually produce the fruit of unrighteousness, and in the end still inherit the kingdom of God.


7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:7-11


JLB

 

[JLB]

The mechanics of salvation is faith alone in Christ alone.

What of those who have faith, then depart from the faith, and turn to other gods?

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:1-2

IMO, the OSAS Hyper-grace doctrine that teaches a person can be saved by faith, then depart from the very faith, through which they were saved, and serve another god, and even take the mark of the beast, and still somehow be saved, is a doctrine of demons, that entices a person into a false sense of eternal security.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, one can leave the faith. But you have yet to prove from Scripture that leaving the faith results in loss of salvation. And leaving the faith, or departing from Christ does NOT break the sealing with the Holy Spirit, in which the believer is placed "IN CHRIST".

Jesus plainly teaches us different.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:2,6

Just show us the scripture where burning in the fire of hell is somehow being saved.

The fire = Hell.

A fire can mean just about anything.

He says The Fire, not a fire.

Here are some other examples that refer specifically to the fire.

Here Jesus specifically links The fire with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.


I suppose "a fire" could be just about anything a person could dream up.

The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


JLB

 

[MarkT]

Where am supposed to follow your instruction?? When were you put in charge? I follow Scripture. And the "for" doesn't change anything. Yes, it's part of the text, but does NOT in any way "interpret" how to understand what Paul meant by God's gifts.


Hold on there. Before one can even ask the question "why are God's gifts irrevocable", one MUST answer the question: WHAT are God's irrevocable gifts? And you have not proven that Paul didn't mean the gift of eternal life. We KNOW what Paul meant because Paul had already described what God's gifts ARE: justification and eternal life.


Yes, He does. And here's just one of them: and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28

LOS doctrine preaches that those who have eternal life may end up perishing in the lake of fire. LOS doctrine is directly contrary to Jesus' promise.


How about considering the Greek word, which means "not to be repented of" and "irrevocable". The Greek scholars who wrote the lexicons know how the word was used and translated it "irrevocable". iow, God does NOT take back His gifts.


That's what I believe.


Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. Rom 11:29 says God's gifts are irrevocable.

And Paul NEVER EVER made any comment about excluding the gift of eternal life from the gifts of God that are irrevocable. That's the problem for LOS doctrine.

So, Rom 11:29 says EVERYTHING about eternal security and OSAS.

So right after warning the Gentiles to not be proud, saying, "you only stand fast through faith" Romans 11:20 and saying natural branches were cut off because of unbelief, and saying you too can be cut off (if God didn't spare the natural branches neither will he spare you), Romans 11:21,one line causes you to believe no believer can ever be cut off. Where Paul says, if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you, you take one line and make it the foundation of OSAS. Right smack dab in his discourse about the severity of God towards those who have fallen because of unbelief, you take one line to mean no one can lose their salvation, even if they fall into unbelief. And I mean right after his warning and saying you too can be cut off, you think he is saying, don't worry, no believer can be cut off; no believer can lose their salvation. Does that make sense?