Eternal Security

[WIP]

Those teaching other doctrines are not Sheep. They are self willed worshipers, for they do not hear the Masters voice, nor do they know Him.

The problem as I see it is that we humans can't seem to agree on what is true doctrine vs. what is false doctrine. Ergo, how many "Christian" denominations are there? There isn't any one of them that would deny they speak truth. Look at the arguments we have on this site alone. OSAS vs non-OSAS, Eternal conscious torment vs total annihilation, dare I mention the Trinity? and so on.

 

[smaller]

I wonder how many believe they are born again but sadly are not and so they go about their lives, running to and fro, carefree, and living with a false sense of security because someone told them that if they utter certain words they are saved forever.

There is a bit of a conundrum of the mind/heart for the non-eternal security crowd.

On one hand every proponent/purveyor of non OSAS views themselves as "currently saved." But, if they don't believe they could potentially be lost, they might not be saved.

It really is a mind game that believers play within themselves. I might call it the bed of perpetual doubt and the formations of various works salvation formats.

It is old school orthodoxy though. Where the believers for the most part don't know if they are saved. Only that they might be using reasonable assurances.

The Mike Tyson moment (every fighter has a plan until they get punched in the mouth) for any of these doctrinal postures, if believers are even capable of testing where they are at, is in Romans 7:25-31, where even unsaved enemies of the Gospel are saved as it pertains to the people of Israel. And not future enemies from when the words were penned. Paul uses the term "are" enemies, present tense. Yet they are beloved by God for the sakes of others, the fathers of faith. And thusly saved.

It's even more startling when we see these people were blinded by God for our benefit. Romans 11:8, Romans 11:11, Romans 11:18, Romans 11:28

Do we then condemn these blinded by God enemies of the Gospel? Or do we understand what happened to them and show them Gods Mercy in Christ as we are directed to do by Paul in Romans 11:31? Or do we do the fancy dance around the subject matter and figure out ways that these things aren't true?

And if this is the case for blinded enemies of the Gospel, how could we possibly ever condemn a believer? Or even a blinded believer?

 

[WIP]

how could we possibly ever condemn a believer? Or even a blinded believer?

We can't. That is up to God.
“I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” Romans 9:15 & Exodus 33:19 NKJV

 

[Douglas Summers]

Rom 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Acts 6:31
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
If I have understood what I read these two verses wont help some one be saved.
What then would one add to this or do different to get saved?

Hi Roro, There is nothing you can add, The Scripture order is sort of backwards, A man believes in his heart first, of the witness of Christ in God's love for man, and then he confesses with his mouth what comes out of the heart. The heart is the real witness of Christ.
Many students of the Bible who recognize by Scripture the mingling of tares among the wheat----or mere professors among true believers, greatly confuses many who study the Word of God. They apply to believers the warnings and exhortations meant only for the self-deceived and hypocritical. The fact of such mixture is abundantly recognized in the Scriptures. (Gen. 4:3-5) (2 Cor. 11: 13-15) (Neh. 13: 1-3) (Matt. 13: 24-30; 37-43) (Num. 11: 4-6) (2 Peter 2: 1-2) (Exod. 12:38) (Gal. 2:4) (Neh. 7:63-65).

There are too many Scriptures (for one post) to refer to all the passages that distinguish between true believers and the mass of mere formalist, hypocrites, and the deceived legalists who are working for their own salvation, instead of working out a salvation already received as a FREE GIFT. Compare (Philippians 2:12-13) with (Ephesians 2:8-9). These passages will sufficiently show the line of demarcation.
Those who believe are Saved Professors are Lost
BELIEVERS --- PROFESSORS
(Luke 7:50) --- (Acts 8:13, 21)
(Acts 2:42) --- (1 John 2:19)
(John 10:27, 29) --- (Matt. 12:43-45)
(John 6:37-39) ... (John 6:64-66)
(Matt. 25:10) --- (Matt. 25:11-12)
(Rom. 3:22) ... (Matt. 23:28, 33)
(Rev. 19:7-8) ... (Matt. 22: 11, 13)

(John 10:14)> ---
(2 Tim. 2:19)> --- < (Matt. 7:22-23)

(John 6:47) --- (James 2:14) A.S.V.
(Heb. 10:39) ... (Heb. 10:38)
BELIEVERS ARE REWARDED --- PROFESSORS ARE CONDEMNED
(Matt. 25:19-23) --- (Matt. 25:24-30)
(Luke 12:42-44) --- (Luke 12:45-47)
(Col. 3:24) --- (Matt. 7:22-23)

Some Bible passages may seem difficult, But Spirit and prayer and careful study, will surely bring light, keeping in mind the importance of never useing a doubtful or obscure Scripture to contradict a clear and positive one.

There should be no difficulty in the case of Judas Iscariot and Peter. Judas was never a believer, (John 6:68-71). Peter never ceased to be one. (Luke 22:31-32) A.S.V.
Study carefully (Matt. 13:28-29) / (1 Cor. 4:5)

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[smaller]

We can't. That is up to God.
“I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” Romans 9:15 & Exodus 33:19 NKJV

Fortunately most believers who do hold to non-OSAS have enough common sense employed to know they can't know for sure or make that determination.

And at least attach some credible terms such as "maybe" or "possibly" and when doing so should also have same sense to apply to themselves.

I might also NOTE that in the references provided from Romans 11 from prior post we DO know, in black and white.

 

[Edward]

The problem as I see it is that we humans can't seem to agree on what is true doctrine vs. what is false doctrine. Ergo, how many "Christian" denominations are there? There isn't any one of them that would deny they speak truth. Look at the arguments we have on this site alone. OSAS vs non-OSAS, Eternal conscious torment vs total annihilation, dare I mention the Trinity? and so on.

As near as I can tell, no believers have the entirety of the answers. Remember after Jesus resurrected? He appeared to them individually or few at a time, so they didn't have the complete picture until they all came together and compared notes. Hence there really are not any denominations, just Jesus.

His sheep do hear His voice. When it's hard to hear Him means it's time to clean house!

 

[Douglas Summers]

The problem as I see it is that we humans can't seem to agree on what is true doctrine vs. what is false doctrine. Ergo, how many "Christian" denominations are there? There isn't any one of them that would deny they speak truth. Look at the arguments we have on this site alone. OSAS vs non-OSAS, Eternal conscious torment vs total annihilation, dare I mention the Trinity? and so on.

Hi WIP, That is the difference between one who has the Spirit of Christ and those who are just curious and idle. This is how the Spiritual (born again believer) is taught.. As a babe (as Paul calls a new believer) there is a change in the believers life. That is called our standing in Christ by Spiritual rebirth. Every single believer has the same standing before God, Saved by the death AND resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus The Christ. From the most fallible and weak Christian to the most illustrious saint, all have the same standing with God (Saved). Neither prayer nor good works or Church going add anything to our standing before the Father. Faith alone in the Gift and work of Christ sets our place as Son's of God., and equally belongs to every believer.
Now our state or walk is another matter, Our state is not as instant as our exalted standing. It is not all at once that the born again believer becomes royal, priestly, and heavenly in walk as he is at once in standing.

Examples of contrast.
Standing------------------State
(1 Cor. 1:2-9)------------(1 Cor. 1:11; 3:1-3; 4:18; 5:2)
(1 Cor. 6:11)-------------(1 Cor. 6:7)
(1 Cor. 6:15)-------------(1 Cor. 6:15)
(Matt. 16:17)-------------(Matt. 16:23)
(Col. 1:12-13)-----------(Col. 3:8-9)

The Divine order under Grace is to give the highest possible standing AND to exhort the believer to maintain a state in accordance therein.

Gift------------Exhortation
(Rom. 6:6)------(Col. 2:20)
(Matt. 5:14)------(Matt. 5:16)
(2 Tim. 1:9)-------(Philip. 2:12)
(Eph. 2:6)---------(Col. 3:1)
And there are many more teaching Scriptures.
As a born again Believer, God will not let you preach or teach error, but the self-willed teacher , teaches the gospel according to the wisdom of man. When I was eager to do something to further the Gospel, the Spirit of the Lord would not use me or put me into service. Through the years as i studied and learned by Spiritual conformation or Spiritual rejection on incorrect doctrine. Godly men helped me with Scriptures, but it was the Spirit that gave me conformation and used me with His Gifts.

From a shy and bashful person, the Spirit moved me right out of the pew to pastor / teacher. Those that teach by the flesh will always deny they are not wrong. The called and Spiritual teacher / pastor will always let the Scriptures speak for themselves as a witness. And after much rejection by those who oppose correction doctrine. They will finally move on.
Another point WIP. Many teach that the 4 gospels could not agree with each other, and that is why there are 4 Gospels. That is not true. Each Gospel reveals Christ in His different services to the people. Matthew presents Christ as King; Mark as Christ the Servant; Luke as The Son of Man and John shows the Deity of Christ.

 

[Hospes]

I ran across this well written statement here. I have some minor qualms with it, but it nonetheless resonated with me. Think it may well resonate with some of you also:

It is our desire to be thoroughly biblical in every aspect of our lives. Therefore our purpose, methods, and goals must be derived from sound, biblical teaching within the Scriptures, and not from secular culture and marketing schemes. We reject the modern concept that biblical goals can be achieved by man-centered, man-empowered methods. Our theology must determine our methodology, and in fact it will. What a person believes, their doctrine and theology, will be clearly seen by the methods which they use to evangelize and communicate the gospel. The shallow man-made methods of evangelism so commonly used today simply reveal the true theology and beliefs of the people using them. We desire to focus on the passionate preaching of the great doctrines of Scripture that are being neglected in today's professing church: the cross, regeneration, biblical conversion, justification, sanctification and so on. We are convinced that no doctrine is more neglected or misunderstood in the church today than the doctrine of conversion. Easy believism, decisionism, manipulative altar calls and "sinner's prayers" have replaced the sound preaching of the gospel which calls sinners to repentance towards God and faith and in Jesus Christ, and submission to Christ's Lordship. The sad result of this is an unregenerate and unconverted church membership, which results in multitudes of people believing themselves to be saved when in fact they are yet on the road to Hell.​

 

[Douglas Summers]

I ran across this well written statement here. I have some minor qualms with it, but it nonetheless resonated with me. Think it may well resonate with some of you also:

It is our desire to be thoroughly biblical in every aspect of our lives. Therefore our purpose, methods, and goals must be derived from sound, biblical teaching within the Scriptures, and not from secular culture and marketing schemes. We reject the modern concept that biblical goals can be achieved by man-centered, man-empowered methods. Our theology must determine our methodology, and in fact it will. What a person believes, their doctrine and theology, will be clearly seen by the methods which they use to evangelize and communicate the gospel. The shallow man-made methods of evangelism so commonly used today simply reveal the true theology and beliefs of the people using them. We desire to focus on the passionate preaching of the great doctrines of Scripture that are being neglected in today's professing church: the cross, regeneration, biblical conversion, justification, sanctification and so on. We are convinced that no doctrine is more neglected or misunderstood in the church today than the doctrine of conversion. Easy believism, decisionism, manipulative altar calls and "sinner's prayers" have replaced the sound preaching of the gospel which calls sinners to repentance towards God and faith and in Jesus Christ, and submission to Christ's Lordship. The sad result of this is an unregenerate and unconverted church membership, which results in multitudes of people believing themselves to be saved when in fact they are yet on the road to Hell.​

Yes. A fair observation. A description of six of the Churches in Revelation. We can see the storm coming, All of the conditions are assembling to bring in the Perfect Storm, But far too many are not taking shelter.

 

[Malachi]

The problem as I see it is that we humans can't seem to agree on what is true doctrine vs. what is false doctrine. Ergo, how many "Christian" denominations are there? .

The issues comes back to the wheat and the tares. In addition to that the flesh intrudes. As we can see in the seven churches of Asia in Revelation, false doctrine had already contaminated the churches by AD 90, and there was one church -- at Laodicea -- where all the members were unregenerate (but considered themselves Christians). No genuine believer can be labelled as spiritually wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked. Christ was literally standing outside the door of this church, and outside the doors of their hearts.

What should also be honestly recognized is that at this time in the history of Christianity, there is tremendous apostasy, and even the evangelical and fundamentalist churches are falling away. This is to be expected, since the Man of Sin is around the corner (in a manner of speaking).

 

[Hospes]

No genuine believer can be labelled as spiritually wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked.

To varying degrees, been there, done that.

 

[gr8grace3]

That person has lied, then. No where in Scripture is one saved by "uttering any certain words".

The only thing the Bible teaches is to place your trust in Christ for salvation.

Just like trusting your physical life to any bridge that you may drive over. If you don't trust the bridge, you'd not drive over it.

Driving over the bridge isn't saving faith, for if one doesn't not trust the bridge, he will not drive over it.

Driving over the bridge demonstrates one's faith in the bridge.

Still fighting the good fight I see!

 

[gr8grace3]

"My sheep hear my voice", I know them and they follow me,, And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither can anyone pluck them out of my hands (John 10: 28-29) Sheep are sweet and innocent without a violent nature. The Shepherd looks after His Sheep, and if even one is lost, he will go and find it and bring it back into the fold. His sheep follow Him, for they know his voice. If the Shepherd gives His Sheep eternal life, and they know His voice, There would be no question that they did not believe Him. The Church is an equal brotherhood and we will all rule with Christ. Some with more and some with less responsibility according to the talents given them.
No sheep of the Lord's flock would teach or preach any other doctrines. Nothing the Lord teaches us or gives us is left up to man's self will. A born again Christian can be in error, but the Spirit will not call him to teach in error. Preaching , teaching and Pastoring is a calling and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Quenching the Holy Spirit is to hinder it by not allowing it to use you when you know it is wanting to. Those teaching other doctrines are not Sheep. They are self willed worshipers, for they do not hear the Masters voice, nor do they know Him.

so you have taught your family, friends, relatives, wife,kids and everybody you are around PERFECTLY? Or you get a pass because you were not called to be a teacher?

And the Holy Spirit is not an "It."

Believers don't "hear" Him because they don't study. They may read and cry, read and laugh. Read and feel good or bad.............but they don't STUDY and the do not hear the Master.

The Church is an equal Brotherhood in salvation. But not in the eternal state. Freedom in Christ guarantees inequality in the eternal state. Some CHOOSE to advance and some do not after salvation.

 

[Douglas Summers]

so you have taught your family, friends, relatives, wife,kids and everybody you are around PERFECTLY? Or you get a pass because you were not called to be a teacher?

And the Holy Spirit is not an "It."

Believers don't "hear" Him because they don't study. They may read and cry, read and laugh. Read and feel good or bad.............but they don't STUDY and the do not hear the Master.

The Church is an equal Brotherhood in salvation. But not in the eternal state. Freedom in Christ guarantees inequality in the eternal state. Some CHOOSE to advance and some do not after salvation.

???

 

[FreeGrace]

???

This is an unfortunate response to those not familiar with doctrinal teaching. They have no idea. LIke so many churches.

 

[smaller]

???

I believe he's referencing the more/less principles of Matt 13:12, Mark 4:24 and Luke 12:48.

But it's the same age old problem, which is really "within" the flesh of the believer.

Some will read the scriptures above or any other, and they'll think in their heart, "if I don't get more light Gods going to destroy me in hell." Or, in converse manners, others will read themselves as secure and understand that IS more light. And they'll move away from the workings in the flesh, understanding that direction is slaveship to the operations/operators (by my sight) in the flesh. But this is not done under threat or duress. The latter has emerged from the ground of darkness and destruction into the Light of Life in a greater degree.

It's a very critical distinction in the hearts of the readers and a very different relationship with God in Christ.

I could give several analogies along the lines of "the harder you try the worse it will get" for the former sight, as such will sink further and further into condemnation, primarily of others, but in reality they really do see their own failures and they take them out on others.

I learned this a long time ago. That as a believer progresses in their personal battles against sin, post salvation, they finally get it down to dealing with a single evil thought. And they also think that by perfect doctrines, they are good, but ONLY if they have perfect doctrines too. And, knowing that evil thoughts are defiling and yes SIN (Matt. 5:28), I feared damnation. So, I would immediately repent in hopes that I could eventually wipe out every form of defilement.

And thus began the "vicious circle" of works salvation.

But one day I realized that I really was a sinner in the flesh/mind. That "conclusion" can NOT be changed, and that such random thoughts were just "toying" with me, evil and defiling as they ARE, I understood that I really was saved SOLELY by the forgiveness, Grace and Divine Mercy of God in Christ. It was much more "real" to me, salvation, secure, at that junction. And now I detest believers who seek to damn other believers, including themselves to potential hell, because it is a form of works salvation, a working of EVIL in the flesh, and it ain't going to happen that way. Exactly NOBODY is going to rid themselves of "evil present" with them. Romans 7:21.

Also from there, when the "burden" of judging any believers fell from my eyes, there was much freedom in my own heart. I'll never look back from the Love of God in Christ. And really, that's where I started to begin with. I just got caught up in modern day religious phariseeisms.

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe he's referencing the more/less principles of Matt 13:12, Mark 4:24 and Luke 12:48.

But it's the same age old problem, which is really "within" the flesh of the believer.

Some will read the scriptures above or any other, and they'll think in their heart, "if I don't get more light Gods going to destroy me in hell." Or, in converse manners, others will read themselves as secure and understand that IS more light. And they'll move away from the workings in the flesh, understanding that direction is slaveship to the operations/operators (by my sight) in the flesh. But this is not done under threat or duress. The latter has emerged from the ground of darkness and destruction into the Light of Life in a greater degree.

It's a very critical distinction in the hearts of the readers and a very different relationship with God in Christ.

I could give several analogies along the lines of "the harder you try the worse it will get" for the former sight, as such will sink further and further into condemnation, primarily of others, but in reality they really do see their own failures and they take them out on others.

I learned this a long time ago. That as a believer progresses in their personal battles against sin, post salvation, they finally get it down to dealing with a single evil thought. And they also think that by perfect doctrines, they are good, but ONLY if they have perfect doctrines too. And, knowing that evil thoughts are defiling and yes SIN (Matt. 5:28), I feared damnation. So, I would immediately repent in hopes that I could eventually wipe out every form of defilement.

And thus began the "vicious circle" of works salvation.

But one day I realized that I really was a sinner in the flesh/mind. That "conclusion" can NOT be changed, and that such random thoughts were just "toying" with me, evil and defiling as they ARE, I understood that I really was saved SOLELY by the forgiveness, Grace and Divine Mercy of God in Christ. It was much more "real" to me, salvation, secure, at that junction. And now I detest believers who seek to damn other believers, including themselves to potential hell, because it is a form of works salvation, a working of EVIL in the flesh, and it ain't going to happen that way. Exactly NOBODY is going to rid themselves of "evil present" with them. Romans 7:21.

Also from there, when the "burden" of judging any believers fell from my eyes, there was much freedom in my own heart. I'll never look back from the Love of God in Christ. And really, that's where I started to begin with. I just got caught up in modern day religious phariseeisms.

Very well said!!

 

[smaller]

Very well said!!

Harsh judgment to my own flesh also got much more rigorous I might add! I have never left that behind. It is so harsh that few understand it.

Now, for example, when I have a wicked evil thought, I understand these are of the tempter in my own flesh, and I apply THE DAMNATION scriptures to that working/worker.

Who want's to dump their own flesh in the fire, OR more accurately the adverse influencer therein? I raise my hand. Yes. In this way I turned, almost 180 degrees from where I started in "works salvation." Now I do not defer from the damnation scriptures applied personally or should I say, the tempter. Rather than run from them, I run TO them. Because they are the Words of God, meant for my BENEFIT as a believer.

My flesh and the influencER therein doesn't care to see it that way however. 1 John 3:8.

This understanding is also where I "part ways" with the OSAS crowd, even though we have the same "end game" sight.

 

[Douglas Summers]

And thus began the "vicious circle" of works salvation.

But one day I realized that I really was a sinner in the flesh/mind. That "conclusion" can NOT be changed, and that such random thoughts were just "toying" with me, evil and defiling as they ARE, I understood that I really was saved SOLELY by the forgiveness, Grace and Divine Mercy of God in Christ. It was much more "real" to me, salvation, secure, at that junction. And now I detest believers who seek to damn other believers, including themselves to potential hell, because it is a form of works salvation, a working of EVIL in the flesh, and it ain't going to happen that way. Exactly NOBODY is going to rid themselves of "evil present" with them. Romans 7:21.

Also from there, when the "burden" of judging any believers fell from my eyes, there was much freedom in my own heart. I'll never look back from the Love of God in Christ. And really, that's where I started to begin with. I just got caught up in modern day religious phariseeisms.

Thanks smaller, I was exactly in the same battle. Th more I would seek the Lord (after regeneration) the more sin tried to say, "I don't think God can forgive you for all your sins, then sinful thoughts seem to occupy my mind as if though the Lord did not really accept me, It was a Spiritual struggle causing doubt as to my salvation. I kept asking the Lord what I had to do to gain His approval. Then like you, when in my mind, nothing I did seemed to please the Lord, I found my error, I thought the grace of God was like the grace that men have (conditional grace). But I found out that The Grace of God was Eternal Grace, unconditional by faith in the work and gift of God, and like that, the binding chains were loosed by the Light of God's word that I had only seen from the mind of the flesh. As I have learned, our STANDING in God by the work and free gift of the Son is sound and secure the instant we are born again. But our WALK or STATE with God to maturity is not as instant as our exalted STANDING.

 

[smaller]

Thanks smaller, I was exactly in the same battle. Th more I would seek the Lord (after regeneration) the more sin tried to say, "I don't think God can forgive you for all your sins, then sinful thoughts seem to occupy my mind as if though the Lord did not really accept me, It was a Spiritual struggle causing doubt as to my salvation. I kept asking the Lord what I had to do to gain His approval. Then like you, when in my mind, nothing I did seemed to please the Lord, I found my error, I thought the grace of God was like the grace that men have (conditional grace). But I found out that The Grace of God was Eternal Grace, unconditional by faith in the work and gift of God, and like that, the binding chains were loosed by the Light of God's word that I had only seen from the mind of the flesh. As I have learned, our STANDING in God by the work and free gift of the Son is sound and secure the instant we are born again. But our WALK or STATE with God to maturity is not as instant as our exalted STANDING.

When any of us judge our own flesh for what it is, we might stop trying to "potentially" eternally destroy each others.

But the flesh, because of indwelling sin (Romans 7:17-20) and evil present IN our flesh (Romans 7:21) can not change it's CONTRARY and AGAINST the Spirit intentions. IT is impossible by Scriptural DECREE! And it can not because these workings are in fact quite utterly DEMONIC.

It, THE FLESH, because of WHAT/WHO is "in it" is and remains factually AGAINST and CONTRARY to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

So in effect, what we see in these matters is this:

Some who believe OSAS still condemn those who don't see it that way.
Some who don't believe OSAS condemn those who do.

But NOBODY is willing to confront that which is contrary and against the Spirit in their own precious defiled flesh. And rather than DO THAT, they all get turned into pawns of that opposing working. And rather than just being honest about our own contrary against the Spirit flesh, we get turned, ALL of us, into rather lying hypocrites.

Which is the FATE of those in the flesh, promised to be this way by God no less.

Honesty will take any believer OUT of this control of the flesh. But to do that is to face the reality of it. And only God in Christ can turn a hard head that direction.