Eternal Security

[Douglas Summers]

This is an unfortunate response to those not familiar with doctrinal teaching. They have no idea. LIke so many churches.

Hi Grace, I understand the Doctrine of Christ, I did not understand gr8grace's post. If that was a doctrine they were posting, I did not recognize it as a doctrine of any kind that I had studied. I got the feeling that gr8grace reply to me might be sarcastic? That is why the ???

 

[Douglas Summers]

When any of us judge our own flesh for what it is, we might stop trying to "potentially" eternally destroy each others.

But the flesh, because of indwelling sin (Romans 7:17-20) and evil present IN our flesh (Romans 7:21) can not change it's CONTRARY and AGAINST the Spirit intentions. IT is impossible by Scriptural DECREE! And it can not because these workings are in fact quite utterly DEMONIC.

It, THE FLESH, because of WHAT/WHO is "in it" is and remains factually AGAINST and CONTRARY to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

So in effect, what we see in these matters is this:

Some who believe OSAS still condemn those who don't see it that way.
Some who don't believe OSAS condemn those who do.

But NOBODY is willing to confront that which is contrary and against the Spirit in their own precious defiled flesh. And rather than DO THAT, they all get turned into pawns of that opposing working. And rather than just being honest about our own contrary against the Spirit flesh, we get turned, ALL of us, into rather lying hypocrites.

Which is the FATE of those in the flesh, promised to be this way by God no less.

Honesty will take any believer OUT of this control of the flesh. But to do that is to face the reality of it. And only God in Christ can turn a hard head that direction.

Amen, well said. God gave us a new man, He never changed the old man.

 

[smaller]

at Laodicea -- where all the members were unregenerate (but considered themselves Christians). No genuine believer can be labelled as spiritually wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked.

It's quite funny to see it that way to me.

Jesus was telling them, the believers in Laodicea the TRUTH! It's only believers who can't hear and can't see these things that are true, case in point, the Laodicean church, that are NOT in truth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

If we are NOT of the Laodocian mindset we DON'T say what they say. We understand, hear and accept what Jesus said.

There is a similar principle that Jesus employs with the Pharisees. They did not LIKE or CARE to hear the HARSH things Jesus said to them.

In order to hear and be in truth, one MUST accept those HARSH things as truthful to themselves.

If for example the Pharisees REJECTED the fact that they were full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Then NOT hearing that fact for ourselves makes us what? Uh, yeah. The same as a modern day Pharisee, because we reject that statement of fact. Can't and will not hear it!

So, rather than accepting Jesus' conclusions of fact, we, like the Pharisees, REFUSE to hear it. Just like they did.

 

[smaller]

Amen, well said. God gave us a new man, He never changed the old man.

I remain much harsher on the old man. It's not the old man. It's a blind man, blinded by the god of this world, and therefore not just the old man.

Ephesians 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Few, very few believers will see their own lusts as demonic activity in their own flesh. And they can not, because it's not just them involved. There is a BLINDER at work in the flesh that will not and can not ALLOW them to see it for what it is, and they will rather, EXCUSE it and seek to COVER IT UP. Which is the working of hypocrisy and lies in the flesh of the old utterly blinded corrupted man.

 

[smaller]

Many of these same principles are laid out in great detail in the O.T.

In Esau/Jacob for example.

The first man is the natural man. Planted in weakness, corruption, dishonor. But the natural man not only can't see his condition, he REJECTS such conditions, as all flesh men are prone to such blindness. They can not accept the conclusions of the Spirit, being against and contrary to the flesh. The natural man is in fact BLINDED to his condition by the god of this world who operates and controls his flesh/mind/heart.

The SECOND MAN, Jacob, saw his truthful condition. How is this so? Jacob came before his father as what? Yes, a liar and a deceiver. YET he was BLESSED! And we say, how can this POSSIBLY be? The second man was HONEST before his father. Do you see?

When Jacob, now surnamed Israel, blessed the children of Joseph, he "wittingly" laid his hands in REVERSE order. Placing the hand of blessing on the SECOND son, Ephraim. (Ephraim = double ash heap) Not the eldest, Manasseh. (Manasseh = causing to forget)

There is a very deep spiritual principle behind these matters. And this same understanding is shown by Paul in many places, here for example:

Galatians 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

There is always a "natural man" born first. THEN we are born of the Spirit, AFTER. This persecution that Paul is speaking of is our own FLESH.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Few, very few believers will see their own lusts as demonic activity in their own flesh. And they can not, because it's not just them involved. There is a BLINDER at work in the flesh that will not and can not ALLOW them to see it for what it is, and they will rather, EXCUSE it and seek to COVER IT UP. Which is the working of hypocrisy and lies in the flesh of the old utterly blinded corrupted man.

That is why I have always said, Until a man looks in the mirror (and is truthful) and see's his true nature. The true nature is revealed by the light of Christ that shines into the dark corners (that would be the stark truth) that would be the nature of all men that Paul talks about in (Romans 3:10-18). Because of The Spirit, I'am constantly examining myself on the motives of my thoughts and actions. To walk in the Spirit is to be in constant fellowship with the Lord, and the test is, is there any thought or action that I would do or think that I would be ashamed of in the presence of the Lord. And at the end of the day before prayer, I search the soul to see if there is anything that I should ask the Lords forgiveness for or ask for power to overcome from the habits of the old nature. I do not practice sin, but the battle rages on between the two natures, with the assurance of victory in Christ Jesus.

 

[smaller]

To walk in the Spirit is to be in constant fellowship with the Lord, and the test is, is there any thought or action that I would do or think that I would be ashamed of in the presence of the Lord.

The deception of indwelling sin and evil present will lie/deceive and say that doesn't happen. THAT was my exact point.

To be "in truth" requires us, AT A MINIMUM, to be truthful/honest. 1 John 1:8

And quite honestly Mr. Summers, I doubt very much that indwelling sin/evil present in the flesh/mind is capable of being honest. In fact I know it is not, because these workings are in the flesh and contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. And are in fact demonic. 1 John 3:8, Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

Indwelling sin, evil present and the tempter who is involved up to his eyeballs will in fact LIE every single time. Bank on it!

 

[FreeGrace]

The deception of indwelling sin and evil present will lie/deceive and say that doesn't happen. THAT was my exact point.

To be "in truth" requires us, AT A MINIMUM, to be truthful/honest. 1 John 1:8

And quite honestly Mr. Summers, I doubt very much that indwelling sin/evil present in the flesh/mind is capable of being honest. In fact I know it is not, because these workings are in the flesh and contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. And are in fact demonic. 1 John 3:8, Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

Indwelling sin, evil present and the tempter who is involved up to his eyeballs will in fact LIE every single time. Bank on it!

However, the good news is this:
1 Jn 3:8 - the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

 

[smaller]

However, the good news is this:
1 Jn 3:8 - the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

Good News for believers. Bad News for the devil and his messengers.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

How will people know your God's? By your love for one another.
John 13:34-35.

 

[Douglas Summers]

How will people know your God's? By your love for one another.
John 13:34-35.

(1 Corinthians chapter 13) And this is not possible by the will of man, but by rebirth or regeneration.

 

[Douglas Summers]

The deception of indwelling sin and evil present will lie/deceive and say that doesn't happen. THAT was my exact point.

To be "in truth" requires us, AT A MINIMUM, to be truthful/honest. 1 John 1:8

And quite honestly Mr. Summers, I doubt very much that indwelling sin/evil present in the flesh/mind is capable of being honest. In fact I know it is not, because these workings are in the flesh and contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. And are in fact demonic. 1 John 3:8, Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

Indwelling sin, evil present and the tempter who is involved up to his eyeballs will in fact LIE every single time. Bank on it!

smaller, I'am not sure what you are saying? Of course the spirit of man is evil and a liar. It is enmity toward God (the spirit of man). It does not want to obey God, and in fact, does not obey Him. But it goes both ways, ....The Spirit is against the flesh, that is,.. of those who have His Spirit. There is a battle between the two. Paul explains the battle he had in Romans Chapter 7. Before Paul received the Spirit, and indeed, the flesh lied to Saul that he was blameless in the law by the works of the flesh. and that is the victory, The Holy Spirit points out the character of the flesh, the Spirit that we now follow after, a new nature, just as influential to the soul as the old nature was to our soul.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think the witness I shared with you in our post were made up, or maybe you think I imagined them? Or did you accept my testimony as genuine? I know the flesh is self serving, and I do not depend on it . While zeal for the Lord is good, without the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit, a religious man is just spinning his wheels

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

(1 Corinthians chapter 13) And this is not possible by the will of man, but by rebirth or regeneration.

I don't disagree with 1 corintgians 13 for being what love is, nor do I disagree that by God being in us we are unfoubted better then we would be without.

But that said, this conversation is looking too close for naming some christians as a higher status thrn other christians. It reminds me too much of the desciples asking Jesus who among them will be the greatest. Or worse, like other conversations near this line of thought. Who are real Chtistians and who are imposters. In my opinion both of those lines of thought are off the mark.

Love eachother. Edify one another. Or if you can or need to, rebuke one another so to correct them for their own benifit. These are qualities of love. Comparing a faceless population and finding them unfit in one aspect or another does no good to that people that is being judged, because they usually don't hear it, to recieve any benifit. Nor is it in good conscience an act of love saying good things while they aren't there, like a proud parent praising about their children to their friends.

Focus on being good, in whatever form that takes. And either help another christian (or nonchristian) so they can be better for it, or love them in other ways.

 

[smaller]

smaller,
Let me ask you a question. Do you think the witness I shared with you in our post were made up, or maybe you think I imagined them? Or did you accept my testimony as genuine? I know the flesh is self serving, and I do not depend on it . While zeal for the Lord is good, without the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit, a religious man is just spinning his wheels

Firstly, we do not wrestle flesh. Eph. 6:12 shows us "who" our enemies are.

Where every believer falls into ignorance and eventually into lying hypocrisy is the failure to realize the enemies we are against in Eph. 6:12 are adverse spiritual agents in our own precious hide.

No one cares to hear that part of the Gospel, as it is an offense to the flesh to hear of it. It is an offense because it is true and the adverse spiritual agents in the flesh WILL and DO blind the minds of people on this matter.

It was no different for the people of Israel:

Hosea 4:12
My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.

Hosea 5:4
They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the Lord.

This identical state of affairs of the flesh/mind/heart is pinpointed directly at Satan in Acts 26:18, Mark 4:15 (and all the other seed parables) in addition to Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, Romans 9:8, Romans 9:20-21.

Paul lays this identical issue on his own flesh in Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21&25, and vividly in 2 Cor. 12:7 and again in 2 Tim. 2:20-21. Jesus addressed the workings of Satan to all 7 of the churches of Revelation. And I suspect most just didn't hear that matter personally, but pointed the fingers at someone else in typical demonic fashions.

So, get the picture here. When this fact of the Word is revealed, one of 2 things transpire. Either believers fess up to this reality of their own flesh in truth, OR, they are proven to be under the influence of same and can not speak of it, and will rather DENY and RESIST this revealing. The majority of believers remain in denial and resistance because of these adverse spiritual agents blinding their minds for what is transparently obvious to those who don't deny it and accept it as a fact of the Word.

Doing the math of salvation then is as follows. The believers will be saved. They ARE eternally secure. But the opposite fate will apply to the opposers in their own flesh.

Now you know, but do you hear and see?

Once anyone does hear and see, as they are so led of The Living Word, they will spend some adjustment time in their own heads as they will be repulsed.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I don't disagree with 1 corintgians 13 for being what love is, nor do I disagree that by God being in us we are unfoubted better then we would be without.

But that said, this conversation is looking too close for naming some christians as a higher status thrn other christians.

I'm sorry Soon, I did not see that. The disciples did not have the Holy Spirit at that time and were following Christ in the flesh, therefore reasoning like a child. Sonship came at Pentecost. Every born again believer knows it is an equal brotherhood and every part of the body (even what one would think is an insignificant part of the body) is needed and important. (1 Cor. 13: 10-13) Addresses the child issue also.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Firstly, we do not wrestle flesh. Eph. 6:12 shows us "who" our enemies are.

Where every believer falls into ignorance and eventually into lying hypocrisy is the failure to realize the enemies we are against in Eph. 6:12 are adverse spiritual agents in our own precious hide.

No one cares to hear that part of the Gospel, as it is an offense to the flesh to hear of it. It is an offense because it is true and the adverse spiritual agents in the flesh WILL and DO blind the minds of people on this matter.

It was no different for the people of Israel:

Hosea 4:12
My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.

Hosea 5:4
They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the Lord.

This identical state of affairs of the flesh/mind/heart is pinpointed directly at Satan in Acts 26:18, Mark 4:15 (and all the other seed parables) in addition to Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, Romans 9:8, Romans 9:20-21.
Yes, the Scriptures and the Spirit attest to the two natures. The very purpose Christ came to destroy the kingdom of Satan and his minions. But how did that apply to the post of our last discussion? Were you just confirming the facts of the relation of Satan upon the nature of Adam, or were you making a statement against what I had written? Message # 46

Paul lays this identical issue on his own flesh in Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21&25, and vividly in 2 Cor. 12:7 and again in 2 Tim. 2:20-21. Jesus addressed the workings of Satan to all 7 of the churches of Revelation. And I suspect most just didn't hear that matter personally, but pointed the fingers at someone else in typical demonic fashions.

So, get the picture here. When this fact of the Word is revealed, one of 2 things transpire. Either believers fess up to this reality of their own flesh in truth, OR, they are proven to be under the influence of same and can not speak of it, and will rather DENY and RESIST this revealing. The majority of believers remain in denial and resistance because of these adverse spiritual agents blinding their minds for what is transparently obvious to those who don't deny it and accept it as a fact of the Word.

Doing the math of salvation then is as follows. The believers will be saved. They ARE eternally secure. But the opposite fate will apply to the opposers in their own flesh.

Now you know, but do you hear and see?

Once anyone does hear and see, as they are so led of The Living Word, they will spend some adjustment time in their own heads as they will be repulsed.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

 

[smaller]

Yes, the Scriptures and the Spirit attest to the two natures. The very purpose Christ came to destroy the kingdom of Satan and his minions. But how did that apply to the post of our last discussion? Were you just confirming the facts of the relation of Satan upon the nature of Adam, or were you making a statement against what I had written? Message # 46

It's difficult for any believer to perceive that God in Christ is both for and against us, and even harder to see why this is so on the against side of the ledgers. But I figured you'd miss the point of the post anyway, so, no problem. I don't condemn any believer for any reason, as it is forbidden by Christ to do so.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In the order of Gods Word of law there is law, JUDGMENT, mercy, faith, in that order. Having spent my adult life in the "fine print" legal realms it's part of my joy to examine the intimacies of the fine print of scripture from every conceivable angle.

In my worldly engagements, I did these exercises to protect myself or those with whom I was in a position of agency/trust.

Of course, in the Spiritual realm, the opposite approach is required, as it is often opposite of the ways of the world, rightfully so.

 

[Douglas Summers]

But I figured you'd miss the point of the post anyway, so, no problem. I don't condemn any believer for any reason, as it is forbidden by Christ to do so.

? Thanks for no condemnation. Your profession may have been in legal litigation or contracts, and it is good to study to show thy self approved, but teachers rejoice in the simplicity and Godly sincerity, not with fleshy wisdom, but by the Grace of God (2 Cor. 1:12). Paul was in fear of other teachers that would beguile believers from the simplicity that is in Christ. The Apostles were not a group of scholars or learned men, in which the religious leaders of Israel disqualified them to teach.. But remember this, that all of the religious leaders of Israel were masters of the law. That did not disqualify them from the body of Christ, what disqualified them was their faith in their own wisdom (pride) above the wisdom and grace of God in Jesus the Christ. (Matt. 23:13-34)

 

[smaller]

? Thanks for no condemnation. Your profession may have been in legal litigation or contracts, and it is good to study to show thy self approved, but

OR a great deal of respect for every jot and tittle, which was the point of observation, but's notwithstanding.

John 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If you've ever spent time in the charismatic realm, where I started fellowship, you'd understand how little respect and understanding there is and how the "believers" therein have imaginary relationships with God in Christ that bear little, if any resemblance to Gods Written Word.

teachers rejoice in the simplicity and Godly sincerity, not with fleshy wisdom, but by the Grace of God (2 Cor. 1:12). Paul was in fear of other teachers that would beguile believers from the simplicity that is in Christ. The Apostles were not a group of scholars or learned men, in which the religious leaders of Israel disqualified them to teach.. But remember this, that all of the religious leaders of Israel were masters of the law. That did not disqualify them from the body of Christ, what disqualified them was their faith in their own wisdom (pride) above the wisdom and grace of God in Jesus the Christ. (Matt. 23:13-34)

Or so they thought. I learned at some point, that people are not the only entities engaged in Gods Word. (see Jesus' temptation to see who else thinks he knows the Word, and is moved by the Word to resist.) This few see, because of the reality of it. No flesh man can see it.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Do christians have carnal minds? Uh, absolutely. This can be observed just about anywhere.

1 Cor. 3:
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Some seek justifications under the law. I found condemnation of my flesh for indwelling sin, evil present, temptations and lusts therein, which are in fact demonic. And I accept that conclusion of scripture. Even though my flesh won't.

These particular aspects of the Word will stick in the craw of every flesh man. But if you think you see the wisdom in it for your flesh, you will also know that eternal security from Gods Grace through faith in Christ alone is the only way it can be. And even more, those who walk in condemnation to believers are for a fact, blinded by our adversary in the flesh.

 

[Douglas Summers]

OR a great deal of respect for every jot and tittle, which was the point of observation, but's notwithstanding. Every Jot and tittle was not of the letter of the law, but respect to the Spirit of the law.

John 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; Yes, and at what point would be the victory? (Day of Pentecost) Because the instructions in John to followers was before the Holy Spirit was a permanent possession.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. What law is he talking about here? (The whole law: Ten Commandments, law of the priesthood, (Book of Hebrews), and the prophets (Luke 24:13-32)

If you've ever spent time in the charismatic realm, where I started fellowship, you'd understand how little respect and understanding there is and how the "believers" therein have imaginary relationships with God in Christ that bear little, if any resemblance to Gods Written Word. Do not know charismatic?


Or so they thought. I learned at some point, that people are not the only entities engaged in Gods Word. (see Jesus' temptation to see who else thinks he knows the Word, and is moved by the Word to resist.) This few see, because of the reality of it. No flesh man can see it. The very first thing a born again believer know's is not to follow after the wiles of the Devil . All through the Scriptures of the New Covenant are descriptions of the trickery and wiles of Satan. Only the self willed and self righteous are taken in. All born again believers , from the weakest to the most illustrious saint stand equal before the Lord, but our state (maturity) comes over time through testing, but Christ will never leave His own and will bring them to victory (those who are His own) the sheep. Your warnings are justified maybe to the deceived and self righteous, but the believer knows his judgement should be hell bound, but has believed by faith to the saving of the soul and dwelling with Christ by the love of God (1 Corinthians Chapter 13) (Luke 15:11-32) Of course no flesh man can see these things, but the born again believer is not all flesh.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Do christians have carnal minds? Uh, absolutely. This can be observed just about anywhere.
So then, what gospel (according to Christ) do you teach?
1 Cor. 3:
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Some seek justifications under the law. I found condemnation of my flesh for indwelling sin, evil present, temptations and lusts therein, which are in fact demonic. And I accept that conclusion of scripture. Even though my flesh won't.

These particular aspects of the Word will stick in the craw of every flesh man. But if you think you see the wisdom in it for your flesh, you will also know that eternal security from Gods Grace through faith in Christ alone is the only way it can be. And even more, those who walk in condemnation to believers are for a fact, blinded by our adversary in the flesh.