Eternal Security

[Douglas Summers]

Perfect.
Who said they shouldn't be (dependent on Jesus)??
Only by depending on Jesus can we do what we should do and become what we should become.
It's futile to believe in Jesus if my life does not show my conviction.
It's futile for me to say I Love The Lord, and then not go visit a sick relative in the hospital.
What kind of testimony is that?

You just do not understand. All the above is futile by the works of the flesh. No good deed that you do adds in any way to your Salvation or favor with God. (1 Cor. 13:1-8). The walk we have in Christ is the Spirit of Christ in us. It is not I, but Christ in me. We do not measure our self by our self, or visit the sick to show your conviction that in your own mind make you feel good because you are doing what you think that approves or justifies you or in your own mind, that you are satisfied that you are approved by God by works. The born again believer has been born of God (a new birth, a new man in Christ) and has His nature that has the same Spirit of Christ. We love (not a human love) but as God loves. It is Spiritual, not deeds of the flesh. We do not have to visit the sick to show God that we love like He loves, but because we are Christ by rebirth. Two men can do exactly the same good works, but one can be accepted as love, and the other can not even be recognized by God. For the one that is done because of Christ in us, but the other was done by the flesh to justify yourself before God. (Luke 21:1-3)

 

[GodsGrace]

You just do not understand. All the above is futile by the works of the flesh. No good deed that you do adds in any way to your Salvation or favor with God. (1 Cor. 13:1-8). The walk we have in Christ is the Spirit of Christ in us. It is not I, but Christ in me. We do not measure our self by our self, or visit the sick to show your conviction that in your own mind make you feel good because you are doing what you think that approves or justifies you or in your own mind, that you are satisfied that you are approved by God by works. The born again believer has been born of God (a new birth, a new man in Christ) and has His nature that has the same Spirit of Christ. We love (not a human love) but as God loves. It is Spiritual, not deeds of the flesh. We do not have to visit the sick to show God that we love like He loves, but because we are Christ by rebirth. Two men can do exactly the same good works, but one can be accepted as love, and the other can not even be recognized by God. For the one that is done because of Christ in us, but the other was done by the flesh to justify yourself before God. (Luke 21:1-3)

Douglas Summers
Please tell me something I DON'T know.
My whole point in writing to you in the first place way back when was to tell you that it's NOT YOUR PLACE to determine anyone's' standing in God. But you're still doing this.
Let's just both keep to our conviction.
I'll go visit the sick person.
You could choose not to go.
Your choice. Are you trying to convince me I shouldn't go either?? No thanks. I'll be wanting to live MY CHRISTIANITY MY WAY and not YOUR WAY.

I offer for your consideration:
Acts 10:35
"but in every nation the man who "fears" Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him." NASB
DOES WHAT IS RIGHT. No further comment necessary.

And
Romans 2:13
"for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."
DOERS OF THE LAW.

That word "doing" seems to be upsetting you. But it's the Word of God saying it, not me. I just do what I'm told.

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

Concerning works, Paul seems to speak in paradox:

...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13 ESV)

...I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. (1 Corinthians 15:10 ESV)

For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me. (Colossians 1:29 ESV)
​

I think much of the recent discussion on this thread seems to be rooted in wrestling with this paradox. For myself, I reconcile the paradox by seeing God as the motivator and equipper of all good works. (Note "good" is an indispensable adjective; there are works that are not good, even though they may look identical to a good work.) What made the woman desire to touch Jesus' garment? I see God as giving her the idea. What makes Wondering desire to be rich in doing good works? I see God giving her the motivation. What makes Douglas Summers write in bold blue letters about the danger of reliance on works? I think he sees the dangers of trusting in self-motivated works.

Jesus said, "In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16 ESV) The only way anyone, including ourselves, sees or performs a good work that gives glory to God is that the good work obviously has God as its source. We pour every bit of energy into doing good works all the while recognizing the energy we pour and the motivation to pour it is an undeserved gift from God. In the end, he gets all the credit.

 

[JLB]

You just do not understand. All the above is futile by the works of the flesh. No good deed that you do adds in any way to your Salvation or favor with God.

Could you explain to us, what the reason was that Jesus sentenced these servants of His, to the everlasting fires of Hell?

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Matthew 25:41-43

Please help us to understand your words above, in light of these words of Jesus Christ, spoken to these servants of His who are gathered before His throne on the day of Judgement...‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;

...for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;...

I agree with you that we can not earn our salvation, however if you look at the reason as why He sentenced these servants of His to hell, it was because:

I was hungry and you gave me no meal,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
I was homeless and you gave me no bed,
I was shivering and you gave me no clothes,
Sick and in prison, and you never visited.’


JLB

 

[Hospes]

Could you explain to us, what the reason was that Jesus sentenced these servants of His, to the everlasting fires of Hell?

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Matthew 25:41-43

Please help us to understand your words above, in light of these words of Jesus Christ, spoken to these servants of His who are gathered before His throne on the day of Judgement...‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;

...for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;...

I agree with you that we can not earn our salvation, however if you look at the reason as why He sentenced these servants of His to hell, it was because:

I was hungry and you gave me no meal,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
I was homeless and you gave me no bed,
I was shivering and you gave me no clothes,
Sick and in prison, and you never visited.’

Your post reminds me further of the paradox I wrote of earlier. In the Matthew 25 passage you use, Jesus says 'Depart from me" to people not having done works, while in Matthew 7 Jesus says "Depart from me" to people who have done works. Note Jesus' statement to those who had done works: ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ I see that as Jesus saying he was not involved in the workers, therefore even though their works looked pretty powerfully good, they nonetheless were works of lawlessness.

 

[JLB]

Your post reminds me further of the paradox I wrote of earlier. In the Matthew 25 passage you use, Jesus says 'Depart from me" to people not having done works, while in Matthew 7 Jesus says "Depart from me" to people who have done works. Note Jesus' statement to those who had done works: ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ I see that as Jesus saying he was not involved in the workers, therefore even though their works looked pretty powerfully good, they nonetheless were works of lawlessness.

His reason for saying this to the workers of lawlessness is clear: I never knew you.

Eternal life is knowing Him. John 17:3

Lawlessness boils down to "doing what is right, in your own eyes".

Like you said... he was not involved in the workers.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Your post reminds me further of the paradox I wrote of earlier. In the Matthew 25 passage you use, Jesus says 'Depart from me" to people not having done works, while in Matthew 7 Jesus says "Depart from me" to people who have done works. Note Jesus' statement to those who had done works: ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ I see that as Jesus saying he was not involved in the workers, therefore even though their works looked pretty powerfully good, they nonetheless were works of lawlessness.

Paradox for sure. Divine Irony. Handling simultaneous but opposing truths, aka paradoxes, are never easy.

In the examples of "depart from me ye workers of iniquity" we all, by our FLESH NATURES, scurry away from taking that branding and refuse to HEAR those Words. Yet nary a ONE will see and concede to the fact that we are all sinners, and sin is iniquity.

It is the same with the parable of the sheep and goats in Matt. 25. Every believer will read and think in their hearts "I only do SHEEP" works but never GOAT works, never considering that when not doing sheep works we ARE doing GOAT works. It's the same principle and the same paradox.

Our spiritual ears are plugged solid with WAX. We actually REFUSE to hear.

Strange, ain't it?

 

[Cygnus]

Perfect.
Who said they shouldn't be (dependent on Jesus)??
Only by depending on Jesus can we do what we should do and become what we should become.
It's futile to believe in Jesus if my life does not show my conviction.
It's futile for me to say I Love The Lord, and then not go visit a sick relative in the hospital.
What kind of testimony is that?
The parable of the good samaritan comes to mind. Jesus told the parable to show that all are our neighbor - to show that the Samaritan (of all people since they were so hated) did the right thing by stopping to help the man that had been robbed and to care for him. Do some really believe Jesus was okay with the priest and the Levite?
I like to say that Jesus gives us the power to do what is right. "To do" denotes an action, a doing.
How could any Christian believe that doing good works is a bad thing?
I have a really difficult time with this and don't understand what the argument is about.

Wondering

I'm trying to figure out just where you're coming from.
My reply added to what it is to be like a child.

 

[smaller]

I'm trying to figure out just where you're coming from.
My reply added to what it is to be like a child.

Helpless, certainly. I was not there when my own father wore diapers as a baby/child. But I did see him wear diapers again, at the end, lying helpless on his death bed.

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The handful of wrath bringers are always around to lay it on others. They never lay it on themselves. Wrath has actually come upon them in their demands for performances under legalism. The law brings wrath to such, in heart.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm trying to figure out just where you're coming from.
My reply added to what it is to be like a child.

Cygnus
I was agreeing with you.
I said we're to be like children.
You said they are to depend on their parents as we are to depend on Jesus.
Then I just went on to say that depending on Jesus makes it POSSIBLE for us to do what it is He wants us to do.
Well, at least that's how it is for me.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Concerning works, Paul seems to speak in paradox:

...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13 ESV)

...I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. (1 Corinthians 15:10 ESV)

For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me. (Colossians 1:29 ESV)
​

I think much of the recent discussion on this thread seems to be rooted in wrestling with this paradox. For myself, I reconcile the paradox by seeing God as the motivator and equipper of all good works. (Note "good" is an indispensable adjective; there are works that are not good, even though they may look identical to a good work.) What made the woman desire to touch Jesus' garment? I see God as giving her the idea. What makes Wondering desire to be rich in doing good works? I see God giving her the motivation. What makes Douglas Summers write in bold blue letters about the danger of reliance on works? I think he sees the dangers of trusting in self-motivated works.

Jesus said, "In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16 ESV) The only way anyone, including ourselves, sees or performs a good work that gives glory to God is that the good work obviously has God as its source. We pour every bit of energy into doing good works all the while recognizing the energy we pour and the motivation to pour it is an undeserved gift from God. In the end, he gets all the credit.

I don't know why it has to be a paradox, Hospes.
It seems so clear to me.
James makes it clear: James 2:14-18
In verse 16 he says: "and one of you says to them 'Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?" NASB

Mathew 5:2-20
Here Jesus is speaking of the beatitudes. He's telling me there's to be a transformation of my whole being.

Some on these threads are telling me that if I do James 2:16 there's something wrong with me - I don't understand Christianity. And am I also not to heed Mathew 5's beatitudes. Does trying to be as Jesus would want me to also demonstrate my non-understanding of Christianity?

I don't think I do so many good works. I think we could all do more. There are things hindering this. It's enough if we work for our families and the people immediately around us. If we proclaim to the world to be Christian, then we should be different in some way. If we're the same as everyone else, what difference is there? If we say we're Christian and never go to church, how is that different from an atheist never going to church? And yet some here have said that this is a "work."
Mathew 5:13-16
Mathew 5:46-48

Of course works don't save us. Even atheists do good works. Of course God gives us the power - how else could we bear what we need to bear and avoid desperation at the same time?

You have a very reasonable way of seeing this. Why do some make the word "work" to be an unacceptable word?

Are we to just read our bibles and do NOTHING and expect God to be happy with that? Is He happy just because we believe in His son? I repeat: What does BELIEVE mean anyway? Does it not mean to DO what you believe in and what the person you believe in tells you to do?

I'm sorry. I don't mean the above for you - just thinking out loud.

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

Paradox for sure. Divine Irony. Handling simultaneous but opposing truths, aka paradoxes, are never easy.

In the examples of "depart from me ye workers of iniquity" we all, by our FLESH NATURES, scurry away from taking that branding and refuse to HEAR those Words. Yet nary a ONE will see and concede to the fact that we are all sinners, and sin is iniquity.

It is the same with the parable of the sheep and goats in Matt. 25. Every believer will read and think in their hearts "I only do SHEEP" works but never GOAT works, never considering that when not doing sheep works we ARE doing GOAT works. It's the same principle and the same paradox.

Our spiritual ears are plugged solid with WAX. We actually REFUSE to hear.

Strange, ain't it?

One of the cool works I see God doing in me is as I get more confident of the grace found in salvation thru Christ, the more I am willing to look at my own sin. Holding on to the image of Christ taking my "record of debt" and "nailing it to the cross" (Colossians 2:14 ESV), I can face more readily my sinful nature, hate it, and do battle against it. Not only that, but more fully appreciating how great my record of debt is, makes me more joyful in that it was paid. Anyway, in my own experience, the hear-no-evil and waxed-filled ears of which I am prone is slowly being remedied by a growing appreciation of the work of our Lord on the Cross. What a marvelous salvation!

 

[smaller]

One of the cool works I see God doing in me is as I get more confident of the grace found in salvation thru Christ, the more I am willing to look at my own sin. Holding on to the image of Christ taking my "record of debt" and "nailing it to the cross" (Colossians 2:14 ESV), I can face more readily my sinful nature, hate it, and do battle against it. Not only that, but more fully appreciating how great my record of debt is, makes me more joyful in that it was paid. Anyway, in my own experience, the hear-no-evil and waxed-filled ears of which I am prone is slowly being remedied by a growing appreciation of the work of our Lord on the Cross. What a marvelous salvation!

Indeed. We learn to appreciate what is to come, His Promise:

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Those who say they ain't got one just aren't looking or listening.

Joel 2:12
Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

Isaiah 49:13
Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.


God Saves the AFFLICTED!

James 4:
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Paul quite purposefully dragged his own VILE BODY to the bottom of the barrel, because THERE is where God Placed HIS MERCY.

 

[Hospes]

I don't know why it has to be a paradox, Hospes.

Maybe my definition for paradox is a bit off, but I see it as there being apparent conflict when in reality there is no conflict. The scriptures tell me to work my tail off doing good works and also tells me that "nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh." Jesus commands me to do everything he says and also tells me "apart from me you can do nothing." I am commanded to take on the impossible task of working out my own salvation and to also recognize it is God who is working out my salvation. The apparent, but not real, conflict is I am to do everything while I have no ability to do anything. That is paradox.

Some on these threads are telling me that if I do James 2:16 there's something wrong with me - I don't understand Christianity. And am I also not to heed Mathew 5's beatitudes. Does trying to be as Jesus would want me to also demonstrate my non-understanding of Christianity?

It is the condition of your heart that determines the answer to your question. And no person can judge your heart; when it comes to your heart, you have only an audience of One. To the degree your works are from a heart that is motivated by your love for our Lord and you recognize it is him working through you, I think you are building using the "gold, silver, precious stones" mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3:12. From what I know of you, my bets are on there being lots of gold, silver, and precious stones left after your works "are revealed by fire".

Why do some make the word "work" to be an unacceptable word?

W, I think for those who are very concerned about the eternal consequences of the error seen in people trusting in works to save them or give them standing before God, it is easy to write as if "works" is an unacceptable word. My guess is that if you could see their lives, you'd see them showing the importance of good works by following their Lord in doing good works.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I agree with you that we can not earn our salvation, however if you look at the reason as why He sentenced these servants of His to hell, it was because:

I was hungry and you gave me no meal,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
I was homeless and you gave me no bed,
I was shivering and you gave me no clothes,
Sick and in prison, and you never visited.’

There are seven judgments in Scripture. There is no such thing as a General Judgment that some denominations teach.

1. The sins of the believer are judged. The results are death for Christ and justification for the believer. The place was the Cross.
2. The second judgment is self of the believer. If we do not judge our self, we will be chastised. The place is anywhere and anytime. (1 Cor. 11: 31-32) (Heb. 12: 6-10)
3. The third judgment is the works of the believers are to be judged. The time and place is when Christ comes for His body (The Church) and in the air. The results will be rewards or loss of rewards. (the rewards or loss of rewards are given in crowns) But he himself will be saved. (1 Cor. 3: 12-15) (2 Cor. 5: 9-10)
4. The fourth judgment is the judgement of the nations at the glorious appearing of our Lord. (Matt. 25:31-32) (Matt. 13: 40-41) (Joel 3: 1-2; 12-14). The basis of the judgment is the treatment of those whom Christ call "His Brethren" (Matt. 20: 40 and 45) along with (Joel 3: 3, 6, 70) The place of this judgment will be "Vally of Jehoshaphat". Some are lost and some are saved. This is not the Church. This is the Gentile nations and how they treated Israel during the "Tribulation".

I was hungry and you gave me no meal,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
I was homeless and you gave me no bed,
I was shivering and you gave me no clothes,
Sick and in prison, and you never visited.’[/QUOTE]
These above are not servants of Christ, they are individual Gentiles during the "Tribulation" and how they treated the persecuted Jews.

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe my definition for paradox is a bit off, but I see it as there being apparent conflict when in reality there is no conflict. The scriptures tell me to work my tail off doing good works and also tells me that "nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh." Jesus commands me to do everything he says and also tells me "apart from me you can do nothing." I am commanded to take on the impossible task of working out my own salvation and to also recognize it is God who is working out my salvation. The apparent, but not real, conflict is I am to do everything while I have no ability to do anything. That is paradox.

Yes. I agree but don't see it as a paradox. For example, you say that Jesus commands us to do everything He says, but then also says that apart from Him we can do nothing. It's true! Both form one idea = It's Jesus who gives us the strength to do what He asks of us. That's the nuts and bolts of the New Covenant. The Old had no power, the New does. Through Jesus. I'm not saying here that we need to work our tail off to please Him. When He tells us to do something, it's not work, but our rightful duty.
Mathew 11:28-30
His yoke is easy and His load is light.
Does this mean the load seems heavy at times and our duty is difficult? Yes.

It is the condition of your heart that determines the answer to your question. And no person can judge your heart; when it comes to your heart, you have only an audience of One.

This has been my position all along. It's not for anyone to determine the condition of the soul of another person. It's between them and God.
Mathew 7:1-5

W, I think for those who are very concerned about the eternal consequences of the error seen in people trusting in works to save them or give them standing before God, it is easy to write as if "works" is an unacceptable word. My guess is that if you could see their lives, you'd see them showing the importance of good works by following their Lord in doing good works.

I do have a question regarding the first part of your statement here.
If a person is wrong and they ARE trying to be saved by works - who are we to say they aren't? If they have the conscious knowledge that there is a God and that God wants them to do works, can they not be saved even though their doctrine is wrong?
Going even farther: Could it not be said that an atheist that does good is more open to the idea of God and more likely to become saved than one who is not a "good" person and does nothing to help humankind?

I think we have to be careful not to put God into a box.
Job 38:4

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

Perfect.
Who said they shouldn't be (dependent on Jesus)??
Only by depending on Jesus can we do what we should do and become what we should become.
It's futile to believe in Jesus if my life does not show my conviction.
It's futile for me to say I Love The Lord, and then not go visit a sick relative in the hospital.
What kind of testimony is that?
The parable of the good samaritan comes to mind. Jesus told the parable to show that all are our neighbor - to show that the Samaritan (of all people since they were so hated) did the right thing by stopping to help the man that had been robbed and to care for him. Do some really believe Jesus was okay with the priest and the Levite?
I like to say that Jesus gives us the power to do what is right. "To do" denotes an action, a doing.
How could any Christian believe that doing good works is a bad thing?
I have a really difficult time with this and don't understand what the argument is about.

You just do not understand. All the above is futile by the works of the flesh. No good deed that you do adds in any way to your Salvation or favor with God. (1 Cor. 13:1-8). The walk we have in Christ is the Spirit of Christ in us. It is not I, but Christ in me. We do not measure our self by our self, or visit the sick to show your conviction that in your own mind make you feel good because you are doing what you think that approves or justifies you or in your own mind, that you are satisfied that you are approved by God by works. The born again believer has been born of God (a new birth, a new man in Christ) and has His nature that has the same Spirit of Christ. We love (not a human love) but as God loves. It is Spiritual, not deeds of the flesh. We do not have to visit the sick to show God that we love like He loves, but because we are Christ by rebirth. Two men can do exactly the same good works, but one can be accepted as love, and the other can not even be recognized by God. For the one that is done because of Christ in us, but the other was done by the flesh to justify yourself before God. (Luke 21:1-3)

DS, I think you are not really understanding Wondering and I sense she is frustrated by it. Reading what she posted, I am having a hard time seeing in her writing what you are seeing. I think you both may be innocently talking past one another. Let me see if I can say in different words what she is saying.

In childlike dependence on Christ we do good works. If our life is void of good works it indicates our faith is non-existent. (W uses the word "futile" which is a bit ambiguous, but from her other writing it is clear she is not saying the good works adds to her salvation.) We may say we love Christ, but if our lives show no pursuit of pleasing him in action, it indicates we are lying or deceived. God sees our hearts; he knows who truly loves him. We do not do good works to convince God of our love, but we do good works because of our love for him. Good works are good when they are a response to the grace we have been shown by God. "Good" works are bad works if they are motivated by a desire to earn God's salvation through Jesus.

W, did I get it right? For clarity, I realize I may have inadvertently added some of my own thinking or some of your thoughts gleaned from other posts of yours, so feel free to take issue with any of what I wrote.

 

[GodsGrace]

DS, I think you are not really understanding Wondering and I sense she is frustrated by it. Reading what she posted, I am having a hard time seeing in her writing what you are seeing. I think you both may be innocently talking past one another. Let me see if I can say in different words what she is saying.

In childlike dependence on Christ we do good works. If our life is void of good works it indicates our faith is non-existent. (W uses the word "futile" which is a bit ambiguous, but from her other writing it is clear she is not saying the good works adds to her salvation.) We may say we love Christ, but if our lives show no pursuit of pleasing him in action, it indicates we are lying or deceived. God sees our hearts; he knows who truly loves him. We do not do good works to convince God of our love, but we do good works because of our love for him. Good works are good when they are a response to the grace we have been shown by God. "Good" works are bad works if they are motivated by a desire to earn God's salvation through Jesus.

W, did I get it right? For clarity, I realize I may have inadvertently added some of my own thinking or some of your thoughts gleaned from other posts of yours, so feel free to take issue with any of what I wrote.

Hospes,
By "futile" I meant "useless."
It IS rather frustrating to have someone you don't even know advise you that you're not Christian, or that you're an inferior Christian because your relationship with Jesus does not meet with his approval. This was my original reason for posting - not to speak about works.

I especially like the above highlighted and underlined (by me).
Philippians 4:13
And let's not forget Romans 12:5

Your explanation is perfect and I approve!

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

W, I think for those who are very concerned about the eternal consequences of the error seen in people trusting in works to save them or give them standing before God, it is easy to write as if "works" is an unacceptable word. My guess is that if you could see their lives, you'd see them showing the importance of good works by following their Lord in doing good works.

I do have a question regarding the first part of your statement here.
If a person is wrong and they ARE trying to be saved by works - who are we to say they aren't? If they have the conscious knowledge that there is a God and that God wants them to do works, can they not be saved even though their doctrine is wrong?
Going even farther: Could it not be said that an atheist that does good is more open to the idea of God and more likely to become saved than one who is not a "good" person and does nothing to help humankind?

I think we may a real disagreement here. (It seems much of the discussion in this forum consist of people dealing with perceived, but not real, disagreement.) Let me take what you have written above in parts.

I do have a question regarding the first part of your statement here.
If a person is wrong and they ARE trying to be saved by works - who are we to say they aren't?

We are only to say someone is wrong in as far we are consistent with scripture. We have no authority in and of ourselves to declare anyone wrong. But if we tell someone they are wrong based on the truth of scripture, then we are simply delivering the message God has given us. We are ambassadors of Christ. As ambassadors, the weight of what we say is totally independent of us and rests solely with how well we act on behalf of Christ. The Word of God declares the following:

...yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:16 ESV)
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight... (Romans 3:20 ESV)
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse...(Galatians 3:10 ESV)​

Given this, I think we can with confidence tell a person "trying to be saved by works" that their efforts are futile. Again, not because we say it, but that God says it. What we say matters nothing; what he says matters everything.

If they have the conscious knowledge that there is a God and that God wants them to do works, can they not be saved even though their doctrine is wrong?

The conscious knowledge that there is a God is encouraging, but they are mistaken in thinking he desires good works from them before they are born again. Based on "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:8 ESV), they can do nothing to please God until they have been given new life in Christ. It's not so much their doctrine is wrong, it is they are not accepting the grace found in Christ.

Going even farther: Could it not be said that an atheist that does good is more open to the idea of God and more likely to become saved than one who is not a "good" person and does nothing to help humankind?

W, I think that the notion any unbeleiver is more or less open to God is mistaken. Saul was not very open to God and yet God stopped him cold on the Damascus road. The Spirit of God "blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8 ESV) God saves wherever he wishes.

Hope this helps.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think we may a real disagreement here. (It seems much of the discussion in this forum consist of people dealing with perceived, but not real, disagreement.) Let me take what you have written above in parts.
We are only to say someone is wrong in as far we are consistent with scripture. We have no authority in and of ourselves to declare anyone wrong. But if we tell someone they are wrong based on the truth of scripture, then we are simply delivering the message God has given us. We are ambassadors of Christ. As ambassadors, the weight of what we say is totally independent of us and rests solely with how well we act on behalf of Christ. The Word of God declares the following:

...yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:16 ESV)
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight... (Romans 3:20 ESV)
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse...(Galatians 3:10 ESV)​

Given this, I think we can with confidence tell a person "trying to be saved by works" that their efforts are futile. Again, not because we say it, but that God says it. What we say matters nothing; what he says matters everything.
The conscious knowledge that there is a God is encouraging, but they are mistaken in thinking he desires good works from them before they are born again. Based on "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:8 ESV), they can do nothing to please God until they have been given new life in Christ. It's not so much their doctrine is wrong, it is they are not accepting the grace found in Christ.
W, I think that the notion any unbeleiver is more or less open to God is mistaken. Saul was not very open to God and yet God stopped him cold on the Damascus road. The Spirit of God "blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8 ESV) God saves wherever he wishes.

Hope this helps.

Hospes,
Although I did study theology because I used to teach in a church (my last concept to which you reply about God saving whom He will is one of the topics that were discussed and made sense to me) I base what I say on scripture and also on life.

Scripturally, we're saved by grace, through faith - and, of course, grace is a free gift from God.

But then I look at life. I have a couple of friends from a church around here. They're living under the Law. They're still in the O.C. Moses reigns supreme. This particular church is trying to get from Moses to Jesus but it's having a difficult time with those of a certain age because they've been taught that they must work their way to heaven. They haven't been taught the truth. I try to explain about grace, but it's difficult for them to understand. I've pretty much stopped. Here's why: I believe it's NOT your doctrine that will save you. I believe it's JESUS that will save you. Even though they have the DOCTRINE wrong (and I DO believe it's wrong of course) they are still serving God in the way that THEY CAN UNDERSTAND to be correct since this is how they were taught.

So even if it's my belief that they ARE wrong, am I to fight with them to the point where no dialogue is possible and friendships are broken? I can only speak the words and then it's up to the Holy Spirit to convict. If I believed MY EXPLAINING EVERYTHING PROPERLY is what would get one saved, I'd have a really bad conscience because I know for sure that not every child I've taught will become saved. I pronounce, the Holy Spirit convicts.

See? So am I the one to determine if they are saved or not? NO! I can only speak the truth, but it's not my responsibility to determine their eternal fate. I can only say what needs to be said and stop at some point. Also, because I feel we should edify and encourage each other - not tear each other down. Did I post Romans 12:5?
Ephesians is good too: Ephesians 4:16

It is not anyone's function here on these posts to determine the soul condition of a person, to tell them to go study some more because they have their theology wrong and that their personal relationship with Jesus is wrong and not to their liking. We're only here to state what we believe and not to judge the soul.

I think we agree. I think words get in the way.

Wondering