Eternal Security

[GodsGrace]

My conclusion is based on what all the conditional security crowd has said about the matter.

No, you've mistaken me for a Calvinist. And disagree with your opinion because there are no verses about having any such "free will" or determination to lose your salvation. Could you guide me to any verse that teaches this?

FreeGrace
We're going to have a problem agreeing and I'm not one to debate back and forth. Unless it has to do with an issue of salvation.
I don't know what the conditional security crowd says. I'm going by what I've been reading for 40 years and all the bible studies I've done. Isn't it interesting that we could come up with two different ideas? But that, in the end, we're both right - as I stated in my previous post.

I'm not branding you a Calvinist. But free will comes into my understanding of why salvation could be lost. It's my will to be saved. I WANT to trust in Jesus. I DECIDE to believe in Him. Maybe through study, maybe through an experience. Jesus says there's a narrow gate and a wide gate. Mathew 7:13-14 He says there's a wide gate that leads to destruction. Narrow is the gate and the way that leads to salvation. We must stay on that way. We reach a fork in the road in life. We have to decide if we're going to serve God or if we're going to serve satan. As long as we're serving God we could make mistakes and sin and He'll forgive us and we'll be okay. IF we decide to backtrack and serve satan (for whatever reason) well, then I'd say we're on the wide road after the wide gate.

Jesus says that we'll be known by our fruit. Mathew 7:17. So good fruit must be borne. Then He goes on to say that many will say Lord Lord, but He'll answer Depart from me you who practice lawlessness.
Mathew 7:22.23 Have I decided to practice lawlessness??

And, last but not least, Hebrews 6:4.8
It is possible to fall away. Those that were enlightened (the saved) fall away and it becomes IMPOSSIBLE for them to be renewed AGAIN unto repentance. They are likened to the ground that yields thorns and thistles and will be burned up.

But, careful, it has to be my WILL, to abandon God. To abandon the Holy Spirit. All sin can be forgiven but for the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I think abandonment could be considered blasphemy - unbelief. No?

Nope. Once a person believes in Christ for eternal life, they are saved, forgiven, justified, born again as a new creature, and become a child of God.

There aren't any verses that indicate that any of these things are cancelled for any reason.

In fact, Paul covered this in principle here:
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38,39 NASB

The bolded phrase "things to come" would obviously include anything and everything that may occur. So it doesn't matter what comes, nothing that comes will be able to separate us from the love of God.

I agree with all. EXCEPT if it's ME who decides to be separated. Jesus stands at the door and knocks. Revelation 3:20 . He doesn't force His way in - and He won't force Himself to stay in if we don't want Him.

I know that some from the conditional security ilk will claim that God will still love the child of His that He will send to the second death anyway. But I don't see any rational thought in that, since God gives eternal life to everyone who believes.

So how can one who has been given the free gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29) exist in what is called the "second death", meaning the lake of fire?

There is no sense in that. iow, it is senseless to think so.

Your first paragraph here requires a second post. But you kind of answered your own question. You say:
"God gives eternal life to everyone who believes." Good. But what if I don't believe anymore?
The gift of eternal life comes at the end of life FreeGrace. We are to work out our salvation with fear (respect) and trembling. Philippians 2:12.
And also we are to hold firm until the end. Paul speaks of this in Hebrews 3:6 and 3:14
Jesus speaks to this in Mathew 24:13 . It's speaking to persecution but He does say to hold firm in belief.

Nothing will be able to separate you from the love of God, except YOURSELF. That's what the bible tells me.
If we don't have the choice to come out - how do we have the choice to go in??

W

 

[GodsGrace]

FOR DOUGLAS SUMMERS:

Whoa!
I have no reply for you.
BTW, there's only ONE BODY OF CHRIST:
Lutheran
Methodist
Assembly of God
Catholic
Nazarene
Baptist
Church of God
Anglican
Episcopalian
Eastern Orthodox
Presbyterian
Quakers
Christian Reformed Chruch
and all their sub divisions
and all the independent churches that believe in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

John 13:35

W

 

[GodsGrace]

deleted - duplicate

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Whoa!
I have no reply for you.
BTW, there's only ONE BODY OF CHRIST:
Lutheran
Methodist
Assembly of God
Catholic
Nazarene
Baptist
Church of God
Anglican
Episcopalian
Eastern Orthodox
Presbyterian
Quakers
Christian Reformed Chruch
and all their sub divisions
and all the independent churches that believe in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

W

And don't forget The Church of the Enlightened Path.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'll ask this: for those who think they can lose their salvation, where is their trust being placed in regard to their salvation?

I do hope you'll answer this.

However, if there is no assurance of one's salvation, it would easily appear as if one's faith isn't a Biblical faith.

So, if one has trusted in Christ for salvation, but thinks that they can lose salvation in some way, what is their faith in?

There is a phrase, "assurance is the essence of saving faith". Do you agree with this or not?

You're asking Hospes but he agrees with you.
So I'll answer:
Jesus

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Great question!!

To believe in Christ means to place your very soul into the security of Jesus Christ who died for your sins and gives you eternal life so that you will live with God forever.

Believing is trusting. And we trust in Christ, not in ourselves, or our deeds/works, etc.

I'm going to heaven because I am trusting that the promise of eternal life has been given to me based on trusting in what Jesus Christ did for me personally on the cross.

I do not believe that my action of believing saves me or anyone else. I believe that God saves those who believe. Why? Because the Bible actually says so.

"For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

Do you know the Greek meaning of the word "Believe"?

W

 

[GodsGrace]

I would totally agree. It's somewhat odd that anyone would promote doubting salvation as mandatory to being saved. But that is what the claims of some camps are. It's actually quite bizarre, that we must doubt our faith in order to be saved. Quite ridiculous.

1 Timothy 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Why would we doubt Jesus Abilities to save, and instead, bring our own abilities into the picture and then doubt? It just makes no sense.

Yet we hear this opposing cry just about everywhere. Doubt and wrath to the believers. It's the antithesis of saving faith. I chalk it down to the deception of the flesh, thinking the flesh actions can save when that was never the case. Believers are right, that flesh actions can DAMN, and that is where we ALL started our walk, in wrath and damnation, prior to seeing The Light of His Life (not our own.)

The only note that I bring up, to keep JUDGMENT intact, is that the flesh of all believers remains contrary to and against the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. I will not extend a spittle of Spiritual satisfaction to the vile contrary to against the Spirit flesh of anyone, starting with my own.

It is in adverse judgments that the flesh is kept in it's rightful perspective. It is from this BINDING with the contrary, that His Grace and Mercy ALONE, proves His Needs for all of us.

Who here is doubting their salvation Smaller?
With all this talk of flesh and damnation, sometimes it sounds like YOU'RE not sure of your salvation!

W

 

[Hospes]

I'll ask this: for those who think they can lose their salvation, where is their trust being placed in regard to their salvation? I do hope you'll answer this.

Sure, I'll answer, but I will answer for myself back when I believed I could abandon God and lose my salvation. I believed fully God did all necessary for my salvation except remove my choice to rebel. So, to some degree I trusted in my own decision to not rebel. Fortunately, God was graciously forbearing toward me and did not immediately cast me aside.

However, if there is no assurance of one's salvation, it would easily appear as if one's faith isn't a Biblical faith.

Of course "one's faith isn't Biblical faith" in that it is never purely as God desires. Are you thinking you have attained "Biblical" faith? I have been a Christian for 40 years and am still growing in my faith. In fact, the longer I go the more I recognize my faith as falling short. You come across as a teacher admonishing their student for not knowing their multiplication tables, not recognizing the student is a two-year-old who is still trying to count on their fingers.

So, if one has trusted in Christ for salvation, but thinks that they can lose salvation in some way, what is their faith in?

Once again, are you saying you have attained a spiritual maturity at which your faith in God is never tainted by a faith in yourself? If so, you truly see yourself at a place I can only imagine.

There is a phrase, "assurance is the essence of saving faith". Do you agree with this or not?

No, if you define essence as the property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is. Faith does not need me to feel something in order to exist. Does faith cause me to have assurance? Of course. Then again, ignorance may also be the basis for a person's assurance.

 

[Douglas Summers]

FOR DOUGLAS SUMMERS:

Whoa!
I have no reply for you.
BTW, there's only ONE BODY OF CHRIST:
Lutheran
Methodist
Assembly of God
Catholic
Nazarene
Baptist
Church of God
Anglican
Episcopalian
Eastern Orthodox
Presbyterian
Quakers
Christian Reformed Chruch
and all their sub divisions
and all the independent churches that believe in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
You forgot Muslims




John 13:35

W

That is the reason we are not compatible: I'am not a member of the World Wide Council of Churches, nor The National Council of Churches, or any of the above.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is the reason we are not compatible: I'am not a member of the World Wide Council of Churches, nor The National Council of Churches, or any of the above.

I shouldn't be here replying to you, but here I am.
You added muslims to my list of churches.
First of all, following my list the correct word would be, Islam.
Secondly, every church I listed is Christian. Are muslims Christian? I don't think so. This might have something to do with the problems the world is having right now...

So, let's be serious for a moment. This all started because it's my belief that it's not up to any person to determine the Christianity of another - or, to put it another way, the condition of their soul. This is judging. We're allowed to judge a persons ACTS, but we're not allowed to judge their soul - that is only for God to know.
Mathew 7:1-5 is good with this - in fact go all the way to verse 6.

So you don't like churches that have rules and tell one what to do to be saved. Interesting. Then you turn around and tell others what they must do to be saved. Mathew 7:4-5

John 8:36 If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." NASB

I'm not Lutheran nor am I Methodist. Are you telling me the persons who go to these churches cannot be saved? Why mention them? Is Jesus not available to them also?

Maybe they're being taught a different way of serving the Lord. Do you feel only your way is correct? There's only one way to get to heaven?

Here's what I dislike about what you were saying in your previous posts. You're putting God into a box. He's a big God Douglas Summers - He ain't stayin' in no box.

Churches that have a lot of rules and regulations are hindering a persons relationship with Jesus.
Churches that insist only they are right and every other church and/or doctrine is wrong are also hindering a persons relationship with Jesus, by concentrating more on that church or that doctrine than on Jesus. Of course, we, each of us, thinks we're right. But let's respect other Christians opinions too, even if we don't agree with them. And, BTW, I never said I don't agree with yours - I only said it's not correct to expect everyone to follow your concepts OR they aren't Christian or they're an inferior Christian to those with your beliefs.

We don't need to be compatible. I already have a husband.
I do think we should follow John 13:35

W

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace
We're going to have a problem agreeing and I'm not one to debate back and forth. Unless it has to do with an issue of salvation.
I don't know what the conditional security crowd says. I'm going by what I've been reading for 40 years and all the bible studies I've done. Isn't it interesting that we could come up with two different ideas? But that, in the end, we're both right - as I stated in my previous post.

I explained why you misunderstood me.

I'm not branding you a Calvinist.

Your description of my view is Calvinist.

But free will comes into my understanding of why salvation could be lost. It's my will to be saved.

We don't agree. Your will has nothing to do with it. If it did, there would be verses about your so-called ability to lose or throw away or discard or forfeit your salvation. But there aren't any.

Once you realize your need to be saved, all you can do is what Paul told the jailer to do: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED. Very clear. And no verses about how to get "unsaved". Because you can't.

I WANT to trust in Jesus. I DECIDE to believe in Him.

If one wants to, then all they have to do is DO IT. Yes, putting your trust in Him is a decision. But, so what? How does that relate to losing your salvation?

Maybe through study, maybe through an experience. Jesus says there's a narrow gate and a wide gate. Mathew 7:13-14 He says there's a wide gate that leads to destruction. Narrow is the gate and the way that leads to salvation. We must stay on that way. We reach a fork in the road in life. We have to decide if we're going to serve God or if we're going to serve satan.

We're not saved by service to anyone. We're saved by what Paul told the jailer to do: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED.

As long as we're serving God we could make mistakes and sin and He'll forgive us and we'll be okay. IF we decide to backtrack and serve satan (for whatever reason) well, then I'd say we're on the wide road after the wide gate.

One is free to believe whatever they want to believe, but the Bible does NOT teach that changing one's serve changes their status regarding salvation.

The Bible even clarifies: if we remain faithless, He remains faithful. He cannot deny Himself. 2 Tim 2:13

Since the Holy Spirit indwells us, God cannot deny Himself who resides in us.

Jesus says that we'll be known by our fruit. Mathew 7:17.

No, He didn't. Check the context in v.15. He was speaking about false teachers, not believers.

So good fruit must be borne.

"Must be"??? No, the Bible commands that believers produce fruit. If it was automatic as a result of believing and being regenerated, then there would be no need for such a command.

Then He goes on to say that many will say Lord Lord, but He'll answer Depart from me you who practice lawlessness.
Mathew 7:22.23 Have I decided to practice lawlessness??

The key there is that the crowd appealed to Him based on what they DID, not on what they believed. Do you see the difference? They were NOT believers. They were only religious. They thought salvation was by works.

And, last but not least, Hebrews 6:4.8
It is possible to fall away. Those that were enlightened (the saved) fall away and it becomes IMPOSSIBLE for them to be renewed AGAIN unto repentance. They are likened to the ground that yields thorns and thistles and will be burned up.

The falling away is about leaving the sphere of faith. Not salvation. You're going to have to exegete the passage to prove that to me.

But, careful, it has to be my WILL, to abandon God. To abandon the Holy Spirit.

No one can abandon the Holy Spirit. Why not? Because Jesus promised that He would be with us forever. We can, otoh, grieve and quench Him. But not abandon Him. Nor He us.

All sin can be forgiven but for the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I think abandonment could be considered blasphemy - unbelief. No?

That sin was specific to the Pharisees who SAW the miracles of Jesus and attributed them to Satan. That sin cannot be committed today. Impossible.

I agree with all. EXCEPT if it's ME who decides to be separated. Jesus stands at the door and knocks. Revelation 3:20 . He doesn't force His way in - and He won't force Himself to stay in if we don't want Him.

Rev 3:20 is about fellowship, not getting or staying saved.

Your first paragraph here requires a second post. But you kind of answered your own question. You say:
"God gives eternal life to everyone who believes." Good. But what if I don't believe anymore?

You would be called an apostate. But still saved. Because God keeps His promise. Any questions?

The gift of eternal life comes at the end of life FreeGrace.

So you disagree with Jesus, I see. Well, I believe what He teaches. Like this verse:
"“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come intojudgment, but has passed out of death into life." Jn 5:24

We are to work out our salvation with fear (respect) and trembling. Philippians 2:12.

Salvation involves 3 being saved from 3 things:
saved from the penalty of sin: justification
saved from the power of sin: sanctification
saved from the presence of sin: glorification

Phil 2:12 is about being saved from the power of sin, which is sanctification.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you know the Greek meaning of the word "Believe"?

W

Yes. From Strong's -
pisteuō
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing

Now, do you know what it means to "entrust a thing to one" (2)?

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course "one's faith isn't Biblical faith" in that it is never purely as God desires.

Then one can never be saved.

Are you thinking you have attained "Biblical" faith?

In order to be saved, one MUST have biblical faith.

I have been a Christian for 40 years and am still growing in my faith.

Now you've changed the subject, from getting saved, to growing IN your salvation.

Once again, are you saying you have attained a spiritual maturity at which your faith in God is never tainted by a faith in yourself? If so, you truly see yourself at a place I can only imagine.

No, I'm definitely NOT saying anything close to that.

 

[GodsGrace]

I explained why you misunderstood me.

Your description of my view is Calvinist.

We don't agree. Your will has nothing to do with it. If it did, there would be verses about your so-called ability to lose or throw away or discard or forfeit your salvation. But there aren't any.

Once you realize your need to be saved, all you can do is what Paul told the jailer to do: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED. Very clear. And no verses about how to get "unsaved". Because you can't.

If one wants to, then all they have to do is DO IT. Yes, putting your trust in Him is a decision. But, so what? How does that relate to losing your salvation?

We're not saved by service to anyone. We're saved by what Paul told the jailer to do: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED.

One is free to believe whatever they want to believe, but the Bible does NOT teach that changing one's serve changes their status regarding salvation.

The Bible even clarifies: if we remain faithless, He remains faithful. He cannot deny Himself. 2 Tim 2:13

Since the Holy Spirit indwells us, God cannot deny Himself who resides in us.

No, He didn't. Check the context in v.15. He was speaking about false teachers, not believers.

"Must be"??? No, the Bible commands that believers produce fruit. If it was automatic as a result of believing and being regenerated, then there would be no need for such a command.

The key there is that the crowd appealed to Him based on what they DID, not on what they believed. Do you see the difference? They were NOT believers. They were only religious. They thought salvation was by works.

The falling away is about leaving the sphere of faith. Not salvation. You're going to have to exegete the passage to prove that to me.

No one can abandon the Holy Spirit. Why not? Because Jesus promised that He would be with us forever. We can, otoh, grieve and quench Him. But not abandon Him. Nor He us.

That sin was specific to the Pharisees who SAW the miracles of Jesus and attributed them to Satan. That sin cannot be committed today. Impossible.

Rev 3:20 is about fellowship, not getting or staying saved.

You would be called an apostate. But still saved. Because God keeps His promise. Any questions?

So you disagree with Jesus, I see. Well, I believe what He teaches. Like this verse:
"“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come intojudgment, but has passed out of death into life." Jn 5:24

Salvation involves 3 being saved from 3 things:
saved from the penalty of sin: justification
saved from the power of sin: sanctification
saved from the presence of sin: glorification

Phil 2:12 is about being saved from the power of sin, which is sanctification.

FreeGrace, I knew you'd go here. It's okay - you could believe this. I don't.
You say Philippians 2.12 is about being saved from the power of sin, which is sanctification.
"So then, my beloved, just as you have always OBEYED, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, workd out your SALVATION with fear and trembling;" NASB

I don't know. I see the word "salvation" in there. Do you think salvation is the same as sanctification??

Just before that BIG has up there comes that word I asked you about, "believe."
What does believe mean. You give some good examples, but that's not what it means.
Believe in the way it was used, in Greek, in the N.T. means to agree with, to accept with your mind and heart, to follow the lead of, to be one in accord with, to DO what it is you believe in.

So Jesus is saying that the one who believes in God will have eternal life. If I BELIEVE in God, then I agree TO DO what God wants me to do. And how do I know that? Jesus told us:

Mathew 5, 6 and 7.
Mathew 16:24
Mathew 12:31-32

It seems to me that we're not just to believe in Jesus in a mental type way, but in a behavioral way. Mathew 25:35-40. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, etc. Then jump to verse 44 to 46.

And, let's not forget James, maybe Jesus' brother according to some theologians, James 2:14-18.

So, yes, maybe works do come in there somewhere. So do you believe you could recite the sinner's prayer and then do nothing for the rest of your life, decide at some point you no longer believe in God and wish to serve Him, and He's going to force you through the pearly gates?

There is a big difference, though, between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant. In the Old you have to work like a slave - in the New you work because you want to. We're blessed with gifts, 1 Corinthians 12 which goes on to say that the greatest gift is love. If we love, we'll help our fellow man, we'll worship God and will do HIS will for us. Jesus gave the two great commandments, one was to love our neighbor - that entails work!

Another reason I believe one could lose their salvation is because of the New Covenant. The N.C. is a non-conditional covenant - there is one little condition though, you have to accept it. Or, you have to be in it to win it.
If you remove yourself from the umbrella of the N.C., what has you covered? What will save you? You're no longer under the protection of Jesus. And we certainly aren't making it to heaven on our own good behavior!

W

 

[Douglas Summers]

I do think we should follow John 13:35

[/B][/U]
Then do that. For we will all have to give an account of ourselves before the Lord for the things we have done good or bad in the flesh (2 Cor. 5:7-10) Did you read the Chapters 15, 16, 17 in John ? You never did answer the question, were you born again? (Matt. 3: 1-12). Without the new birth, a man CANNOT enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:3). I'am not trying to be sarcastic here. God has left nothing up to the wisdom or will of man's flesh. Without the direction, strength and power of the Spirit of Christ, you are reasoning by your own interpretation of Scripture. Until we see ourselves for what we are, we can NEVER know God's Grace for those He has had mercy upon. Must I remind you that God is going to destroy man and the creation, for He is grieved with man that He made, because everything in his heart is only evil and he always carries out the imagination of his mind. But before he does he has called out those who, by faith will accept His Grace. (Gen.6:4-8)

 

[Malachi]

I see the word "salvation" in there. Do you think salvation is the same as sanctification??

Salvation includes justification, sanctification, and glorification. So in one sense it is salvation.
Justified = saved from the penalty of sin
Sanctified = saved from the power of sin
Glorified = saved from the presence of sin

 

[Douglas Summers]

Salvation includes justification, sanctification, and glorification. So in one sense it is salvation.
Justified = saved from the penalty of sin
Sanctified = saved from the power of sin
Glorified = saved from the presence of sin

Yes Malachi, Salvation is the great inclusive word that covers all that God has done for man through Jesus Christ.

 

[Malachi]

Yes Malachi, Salvation is the great inclusive word that covers all that God has done for man through Jesus Christ.

Amen. Sadly, the meaning of this salvation is not being preached and taught in the churches as it should be, and too many Christians do not really understand their position in Christ. This is even evident on various Christian forums.

 

[GodsGrace]

Salvation includes justification, sanctification, and glorification. So in one sense it is salvation.
Justified = saved from the penalty of sin
Sanctified = saved from the power of sin
Glorified = saved from the presence of sin

In one sense?
First you get saved,
THEN you get sanctified.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

FOR FREE GRACE.

Hi FreeGrace
You had said in an earlier post that those who believe in the possibility of loss of salvation always speak to works. Which is what I ended up doing. But I'm not a legalist, or a pharisee, I might add - one who thinks all should come to God THEIR way or NO way - so I thought about this a bit and realized why I spoke to works.

It has nothing to do with OSAS - it has to do with the fact that you keep saying all you need to do is to BELIEVE and you will be saved. You make it sound as though it's that kind of believe which you described from a dictionary, don't know which one. So, yes, this is true. But Jesus also exhorts us to put that belief to use in our lives. We are to be transformed, we are to work for the Kingdom of God. I know that word bothers some here, but Jesus did not mean for us to believe in a mental or superficial way. He even said He and the Father are always working -whatever that work may be - they ARE doing it. Jesus meant for the sick to be healed, for the hungry to be fed - He means for us to do what we can to promote the Kingdom, to glorify His name with our lives, to DO His will, which is to BELIEVE which is to DO the work of the Kingdom...It's a nice circle.

Just to clarify.

W