Eternal Security

[Douglas Summers]

Amen. Sadly, the meaning of this salvation is not being preached and taught in the churches as it should be, and too many Christians do not really understand their position in Christ. This is even evident on various Christian forums.

It is sadly so.

 

[GodsGrace]

[/B][/U]
Then do that. For we will all have to give an account of ourselves before the Lord for the things we have done good or bad in the flesh (2 Cor. 5:7-10) Did you read the Chapters 15, 16, 17 in John ? You never did answer the question, were you born again? (Matt. 3: 1-12). Without the new birth, a man CANNOT enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:3). I'am not trying to be sarcastic here. God has left nothing up to the wisdom or will of man's flesh. Without the direction, strength and power of the Spirit of Christ, you are reasoning by your own interpretation of Scripture. Until we see ourselves for what we are, we can NEVER know God's Grace for those He has had mercy upon. Must I remind you that God is going to destroy man and the creation, for He is grieved with man that He made, because everything in his heart is only evil and he always carries out the imagination of his mind. But before he does he has called out those who, by faith will accept His Grace. (Gen.6:4-8)

Douglas,
I'M the one willing to let everyone into the Kingdom of God and into heaven --
YOU'RE the one setting limitations.

Which one of us is following John 13:35??

And since this is Apologetics, I offer John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life." NASB

WHOSOEVER believes in HIM. Not in some doctrine of your particular liking.

W

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace, I knew you'd go here. It's okay - you could believe this. I don't.
You say Philippians 2.12 is about being saved from the power of sin, which is sanctification.
"So then, my beloved, just as you have always OBEYED, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, workd out your SALVATION with fear and trembling;" NASB

I don't know. I see the word "salvation" in there. Do you think salvation is the same as sanctification??

[Unsubstantiated assumption. Stick to the facts! WIP] I explained WHY the verse is about working out our sanctification. I gave the 3 tenses of salvation and what we're being saved from. [That's good but instead of just arguing how about providing more clarification]

Just before that BIG has up there comes that word I asked you about, "believe."
What does believe mean. You give some good examples, but that's not what it means.
Believe in the way it was used, in Greek, in the N.T. means to agree with, to accept with your mind and heart, to follow the lead of, to be one in accord with, to DO what it is you believe in.

I also provided the lexicon definition of pisteuo. [That's good but instead of just arguing how about providing more clarification]

So Jesus is saying that the one who believes in God will have eternal life.

Actually, He said to believe in Him.

If I BELIEVE in God, then I agree TO DO what God wants me to do. And how do I know that? Jesus told us:

Mathew 5, 6 and 7.
Mathew 16:24
Mathew 12:31-32

So you think that one is saved by doing?

It seems to me that we're not just to believe in Jesus in a mental type way, but in a behavioral way.

Here's the truth. The Bible tells us to believe in Christ to be saved. And the Bible also commands certain behaviors, which are NOT attached to being saved.

Mathew 25:35-40. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, etc. Then jump to verse 44 to 46.

OK, I see. You believe what liberals call the "social gospel". But the social gospel doesn't save anyone. It just confuses and deceives those who believe it. And you'll find that crowd trying to appeal to Jesus in Matt 7:21-23.

So, yes, maybe works do come in there somewhere.

So, no, they do not come in anywhere regarding salvation.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph 2:8,9

I don't know how it could be said any more clear than that.

So do you believe you could recite the sinner's prayer and then do nothing for the rest of your life, decide at some point you no longer believe in God and wish to serve Him, and He's going to force you through the pearly gates?

First, no one has ever been saved by reciting ANYTHING, including the sinner's prayer. People are saved when they believe in the work of Christ on their behalf.

Second, regardless of any hypothetical silliness, when one is saved, they receive an irrevocable gift of God, namely, eternal life. [Trolling.]

Another reason I believe one could lose their salvation is because of the New Covenant.

The NC is a covenant of grace. So there is no reason to believe that one can lose their salvation.

The N.C. is a non-conditional covenant - there is one little condition though, you have to accept it. Or, you have to be in it to win it.

Please provide some explanation as to how being "non-conditional" translates to loss of salvation.

If you remove yourself from the umbrella of the N.C., what has you covered? What will save you? You're no longer under the protection of Jesus. And we certainly aren't making it to heaven on our own good behavior!
W

I really have no idea what your point is here by your first question. [Unsubstantiated trolling remark.] And the answer to your second question is Jesus Christ. He is the One who saves us.

As to the "protection of Jesus", this is what He said about protection:
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. John 10:28,29

OK, what does Jesus give His sheep? Eternal life.
What is the result of them having eternal life? They will never perish. Same as Rom 6:23 and 11:29 regarding the gift of God being eternal life, which is irrevocable.
What does "no one" mean? It means no person. Are you a person? If so, then even you yourself cannot remove yourself from God's hand.

Jesus promises that those who believe will never perish.

We could also go to the next chapter in John:
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25,26

[The discussion is with you. Using our Lord as a pitching post for your own position is not appropriate.] Do you believe this?

 

[Hospes]

FreeGrace and W,

In an effort to help you stop talking past each other, I'll offer the following to see if you both agree to it:

Good works is one of the outcomes of a person being saved.
A person who has been saved has been given a heart that desires to please Jesus and therefore desires to obey him in all things.​

Agreed?

I see works as analogous to breathing. That someone is breathing is pretty good indicator they are alive, though we know there are ways to make a body breath without life. On the other hand, it is very strong indication a person is not alive if they have ceased breathing for an extended period of time.
If we see a person claiming to be a Christian doing good works, it is a pretty good indicator they have been born again, though we know there those that do good works legalistically and yet have not been born again. If we observe a person claiming Christ who shows no good works over an extended period of time, it is very strong indication they are not born again, but ultimately leave the final judgement to God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I guess you didn't read my post. I explained WHY the verse is about working out our sanctification. I gave the 3 tenses of salvation and what we're being saved from.


I also provided the lexicon definition of pisteuo.


Actually, He said to believe in Him.


So you think that one is saved by doing?


Here's the truth. The Bible tells us to believe in Christ to be saved. And the Bible also commands certain behaviors, which are NOT attached to being saved.


OK, I see. You believe what liberals call the "social gospel". But the social gospel doesn't save anyone. It just confuses and deceives those who believe it. And you'll find that crowd trying to appeal to Jesus in Matt 7:21-23.


So, no, they do not come in anywhere regarding salvation.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph 2:8,9

I don't know how it could be said any more clear than that.


First, no one has ever been saved by reciting ANYTHING, including the sinner's prayer. People are saved when they believe in the work of Christ on their behalf.

Second, regardless of any hypothetical silliness, when one is saved, they receive an irrevocable gift of God, namely, eternal life. But maybe you are in disagreement with God's Word. That's your business.


The NC is a covenant of grace. So there is no reason to believe that one can lose their salvation.


Please provide some explanation as to how being "non-conditional" translates to loss of salvation.


I really have no idea what your point is here by your first question. It is superfluous. And the answer to your second question is Jesus Christ. He is the One who saves us.

As to the "protection of Jesus", this is what He said about protection:
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. John 10:28,29

OK, what does Jesus give His sheep? Eternal life.
What is the result of them having eternal life? They will never perish. Same as Rom 6:23 and 11:29 regarding the gift of God being eternal life, which is irrevocable.
What does "no one" mean? It means no person. Are you a person? If so, then even you yourself cannot remove yourself from God's hand.

Jesus promises that those who believe will never perish.

We could also go to the next chapter in John:
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25,26

Well, what is your answer to Jesus? Do you believe this?

I don't really know what the social gospel is.

I'll only respond to the New Covenant being non-conditional.

I already explained it: It's non-conditional. HOWEVER, you have to be IN the New Covenant for it to be effective.

Not much more to say.

It's good that you're so sure of everything.
God will judge us on the light we have.
Not something someone else believes and that we cannot accept.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

FreeGrace and W,

In an effort to help you stop talking past each other, I'll offer the following to see if you both agree to it:

Good works is one of the outcomes of a person being saved.
A person who has been saved has been given a heart that desires to please Jesus and therefore desires to obey him in all things.​

Agreed?

I see works as analogous to breathing. That someone is breathing is pretty good indicator they are alive, though we know there are ways to make a body breath without life. On the other hand, it is very strong indication a person is not alive if they have ceased breathing for an extended period of time.
If we see a person claiming to be a Christian doing good works, it is a pretty good indicator they have been born again, though we know there those that do good works legalistically and yet have not been born again. If we observe a person claiming Christ who shows no good works over an extended period of time, it is very strong indication they are not born again, but ultimately leave the final judgement to God.

WELL AMEN BROTHER!

Very well put - I agree 100%.
Maybe I didn't say it correctly.
It all goes back to James. Faith without works is dead. And Jesus Himself said the tree must bear good fruit. In fact Mathew 7:19 says that every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down. These words are difficult to accept...

I tried to explain my beliefs well in my post no. 120. Also, the word "believe" is very important to me.
Believing is active, just as faith is active. It's not dead, perfectly as you explained it.

It seems to me that "works" has become a very undesirable word ,when actually Jesus said there ARE to be good works.

But works don't save us... You have MY thumbs up!

Thanks Hospes.

 

[JLB]

WELL AMEN BROTHER!

Very well put - I agree 100%.
Maybe I didn't say it correctly.
It all goes back to James. Faith without works is dead. And Jesus Himself said the tree must bear good fruit. In fact Mathew 7:19 says that every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down. These words are difficult to accept...

I tried to explain my beliefs well in my post no. 120. Also, the word "believe" is very important to me.
Believing is active, just as faith is active. It's not dead, perfectly as you explained it.

It seems to me that "works" has become a very undesirable word ,when actually Jesus said there ARE to be good works.

But works don't save us... You have MY thumbs up!

Thanks Hospes.

Some misunderstand the principle of the law of faith.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

That principle is explained to us by James, as well as Paul.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says,“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:18-26


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

The principle that activates faith to make it "living" and therefore able to produce a diving result is obedience.

The "works" or "act", that James teaches us, by which Abraham was justified, is the action of obedience.

Abraham obeyed God, in response to His command to offer Issac his son. Obedience.

Abraham received faith from God when God spoke to him.

That faith from God, became "activated" when Abraham set out to offer Issac...

Abraham's faith [the substance of the thing hoped for] produced justification [the reality of the thing hoped for] when He offered Issac, in direct response to God's word [Rhema], the very word that produced faith in Abraham [Romans 10:17].


Paul calls it the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26 KJV


The obedience of faith to the Gospel message:

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [YHWH] shall be saved.” Romans 10:8-13

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus [act of obedience] and believe in your heart [Faith] that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Faith and obedience producing a divine result.
The principle of faith.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Who here is doubting their salvation Smaller?
With all this talk of flesh and damnation, sometimes it sounds like YOU'RE not sure of your salvation!

W

I am absolutely certain that all of us have been Divinely Placed in conflict. And if we observe what goes on here and everywhere among believers, this conflict is quite real:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Paul used this example upon his own flesh:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

None of us "act" alone in these matters. We do have conflict and that conflict is with our adversary IN the flesh.

In the above example there was BOTH Paul, a born again child of God in Christ who could not be lost, and an adversary who could not be saved. Two separate and distinct fates need to be rightfully applied. When we "mix" the two, there is the typical confusions.

Paul shows us this same thing, here in Romans 7:

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

If we read Gal. 5:17 properly, we'll see the same thing. We can NOT claim salvation of works. When we do, we are granting the evil present with us, the flesh that is contrary to and against the Spirit, a Spiritual PASS, rather than rightful condemnation.

And this is at the base of all disputes. Everyone trying to climb and clamor on one side or the other when both aspects are true.

We can not claim anything about any of our works other than the truthful claim that evil is present with us when we do them. This certainly can't "justify" the "whole package" of any of us. And we might also recognize, that the flesh or more accurately the adverse influences therein of evil present will never concede to the terms, because it is against the Spirit.

There is conflict, undoubtedly. The flesh will never accept it's CONDEMNATION fate and we shouldn't expect it to take on rightful condemnation. That can't happen. IT is Divinely Purposed to do the opposite.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Douglas,
I'M the one willing to let everyone into the Kingdom of God and into heaven --
YOU'RE the one setting limitations.

Which one of us is following John 13:35??

And since this is Apologetics, I offer John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life." NASB

WHOSOEVER believes in HIM. Not in some doctrine of your particular liking.

W

Wondering, Do you even know what these other denominations believe? I do, and so do all born again believer. In the letters to the seven churches of the Revelation of Jesus Christ that was commanded to John, condemns and hates the doctrine of Balaam and the doctrine of the Nicoloatins, Do you know what they are? What do you think it means to believe in Him? If you believe in Christ, then you believe what He teaches. He also taught the Disciples what to teach and preach.

Here, study this: The Ten Virgins. They were all virgins waiting for Christ (believers) But He only knew five of them? (Matt. 25:1-13) And not every one who calls Christ their Lord and does many good works, Christ says He does not know them. (Matt. 7:12-14) Why? They were void of the Holy Spirit, They were working as for Christ for acceptance and approval of Him instead of accepting Christ as Lord and working with Christ by His Spirit. They were self reformed. (Matt. 12: 43-45) You must be born again. Really! Quit trying to follow the Bible as a script in a play, acting out the parts, and accepting the interpretation and untruth of man (Rom. 3: 10-20) and humble yourself before the Lord, and He will lift you up.

 

[GodsGrace]

Some misunderstand the principle of the law of faith.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

That principle is explained to us by James, as well as Paul.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says,“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:18-26


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

The principle that activates faith to make it "living" and therefore able to produce a diving result is obedience.

The "works" or "act", that James teaches us, by which Abraham was justified, is the action of obedience.

Abraham obeyed God, in response to His command to offer Issac his son. Obedience.

Abraham received faith from God when God spoke to him.

That faith from God, became "activated" when Abraham set out to offer Issac...

Abraham's faith [the substance of the thing hoped for] produced justification [the reality of the thing hoped for] when He offered Issac, in direct response to God's word [Rhema], the very word that produced faith in Abraham [Romans 10:17].


Paul calls it the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26 KJV


The obedience of faith to the Gospel message:

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [YHWH] shall be saved.” Romans 10:8-13

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus [act of obedience] and believe in your heart [Faith] that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Faith and obedience producing a divine result.
The principle of faith.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

JLB

Hi JLB
I know that "believing" the way some people understand it is not enough. "Believing" has to be understood the way it was meant when used by Mathew, Paul, etc.
Mathew 5:20 is an important verse.
Mathew 5:48 is an important verse.
Mathew 7:23
Mathew 16:24
and many others.

I like how you word it: The obedience of faith. Faith makes you WANT to be obedient. I fail to see the problem with being obedient as some do.

Jesus said we're to become like children. Mathew 18:3
Children love and trust their parents. They DO what their parents ask them to if the relationship is to be a good one.

We shouldn't choose between belief or acts. We need both.

Great post, as usual.

Wondering

 

[Cygnus]

Hi JLB
I know that "believing" the way some people understand it is not enough. "Believing" has to be understood the way it was meant when used by Mathew, Paul, etc.
Mathew 5:20 is an important verse.
Mathew 5:48 is an important verse.
Mathew 7:23
Mathew 16:24
and many others.

I like how you word it: The obedience of faith. Faith makes you WANT to be obedient. I fail to see the problem with being obedient as some do.

Jesus said we're to become like children. Mathew 18:3
Children love and trust their parents. They DO what their parents ask them to if the relationship is to be a good one.

We shouldn't choose between belief or acts. We need both.

Great post, as usual.

Wondering

In your post you said "Jesus said we're to become like children. Mathew 18:3
Children love and trust their parents. They DO what their parents ask them to if the relationship is to be a good one."

While this is true, might I suggest like a child is dependent on their parents....we like a child should be dependent on Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

I like how you word it: The obedience of faith. Faith makes you WANT to be obedient. I fail to see the problem with being obedient as some do.

Jesus said we're to become like children. Mathew 18:3

Children love their parents. I'm talking about good parents who love and care for their children, like God does to His children. So please don't mess this up with examples of horrible psychopathic or criminal parents.

But, do these children always obey their parents? No. They love their parents but express their little sin natures just as Christians express theirs.

Children love and trust their parents. They DO what their parents ask them to if the relationship is to be a good one.

All the time children obey their parents? Really? Many times they love but do NOT do what their parents ask or tell them to do.

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB
I know that "believing" the way some people understand it is not enough. "Believing" has to be understood the way it was meant when used by Mathew, Paul, etc.
Mathew 5:20 is an important verse.
Mathew 5:48 is an important verse.
Mathew 7:23
Mathew 16:24
and many others.

I like how you word it: The obedience of faith. Faith makes you WANT to be obedient. I fail to see the problem with being obedient as some do.

Jesus said we're to become like children. Mathew 18:3
Children love and trust their parents. They DO what their parents ask them to if the relationship is to be a good one.

We shouldn't choose between belief or acts. We need both.

Great post, as usual.

Wondering

Biblical believing and obeying are interchangeable.

IOW unbelief is disobedience.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

The reason the children of Israel, who left Egypt, did not enter the promised land was; they didn't believe God, therefore they didn't obey.

The King James says it this way -

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Let's look at the context, and the point Paul [or,the writer of the book of Hebrews] is making. The same principle of the law of faith that James teaches, as well as Paul, is also being pointed out here.

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience...
Hebrews 4:1-6

...but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Can you see what is being said here?

The word which they heard did not profit them... those who heard it.

The heard and therefore had faith, however there faith [from the word they heard did not profit them, did not benefit them, did not produce a dive result for which it was intended, because; they did not act, that is to say, put action [obedience] with their faith, and therefore it did not profit them.

Faith must be mixed together with obedience, for there to be a divine result; ie - for the faith we have when we hear God speak to us, to produce a divine result.


Example:

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.
Matthew 9:20-22

Had the woman stayed back and not moved into action to touch the hem of His garment, the faith she had would not have profited her.


To be continued...


JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

In your post you said "Jesus said we're to become like children. Mathew 18:3
Children love and trust their parents. They DO what their parents ask them to if the relationship is to be a good one."

While this is true, might I suggest like a child is dependent on their parents....we like a child should be dependent on Jesus.

Hi Cygnus, But Christ has raised us up to adulthood or Son ship. We are no longer children, for children are under law or guardians and tooters. (Gal. 4: 1-7) (Rom. 8: 10-18) We are to mature to our calling and election. Mature means from a child to an adult, not to continue on as a child (Heb. 5: 12-14) and (6: 1-12) In Christ Body (Church) God is our Father and Christ is our brother...not our parents. We are not called to sit in the pews, but to fellowship, exhort, study God's word and Spirit led prayer, to equip the Saints to witness and preach the Gospel of the kingdom of Heaven and the grace of God in Jesus The Christ. The body of Christ is sent into the world continue the work of Christ. Not by the will of the flesh, but by the power of the spirit of TRUTH and expect the same treatment as Christ. We are not above the Master, if they did not honor Christ, then they will not honor you.

 

[Hospes]

Hi Cygnus, But Christ has raised us up to adulthood or Son ship. We are no longer children, for children are under law or guardians and tooters. (Gal. 4: 1-7) (Rom. 8: 10-18) We are to mature to our calling and election. Mature means from a child to an adult, not to continue on as a child (Heb. 5: 12-14) and (6: 1-12) In Christ Body (Church) God is our Father and Christ is our brother...not our parents. We are not called to sit in the pews, but to fellowship, exhort, study God's word and Spirit led prayer, to equip the Saints to witness and preach the Gospel of the kingdom of Heaven and the grace of God in Jesus The Christ. The body of Christ is sent into the world continue the work of Christ. Not by the will of the flesh, but by the power of the spirit of TRUTH and expect the same treatment as Christ. We are not above the Master, if they did not honor Christ, then they will not honor you.

Hmmm...you sound as if you are correcting Cygnus, but nothing you wrote is in conflict with what Cygnus wrote. Just an observation!

 

[Douglas Summers]

Hmmm...you sound as if you are correcting Cygnus, but nothing you wrote is in conflict with what Cygnus wrote. Just an observation!

The religious leaders that Christ came to, should have hailed His presence. They had The Book, they had the Scriptures, and they knew the prophecy's. But instead, the Scripture in John says, "He came unto his own, But His own received Him not. The reference is to the religious leaders to Israel who should have received the "Son of David", "Emanuel," "The Messiah" and King of Israel. At every teaching by Christ to the leaders of Israel, Christ was challenged, mocked, and ridiculed. They had their own interpretation and teaching. Even with proof of His Deity, they still rejected the TRUTH. They were full of pride of their so called knowledge and their position over the people. All through the Gospels the leaders were critical of all that the Lord brought to light.
Before Christ ascended, He gave power to those He called out, and extended to all born again believers the commission of preaching and teaching in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. (John Chapter 17) Believers are called out in two ways; by the Gospel of God through preaching and teaching. (Rom. 10:13-17) (1 Thes. 2: 11-13) and directly and personally by God Himself (Acts Chapter 9) .

I'am one that has been called by the preaching of the Gospel and nurtured by the Spirit of God, even as all born again believers are called. Nothing has changed from the time of Christ teaching to this present day. People call their selves Christian by the teachings of man and self willed worship, always ready to discard the TRUTH of the Gospel by their own understanding instead of calling on the name of the Lord to show them the TRUTH, and He will if you are sincere.

What I posted is a doctrine of son ship. The Church has settled down in the world with every wind of doctrine that suits their own will. A man needs to examine himself to see if he is in Christ. Going to Church is not salvation, nor does it give you favor with God. Read and study the Scriptures on your own and see what you learn is what is taught in Church.

 

[Cygnus]

Hi Cygnus, But Christ has raised us up to adulthood or Son ship. We are no longer children, for children are under law or guardians and tooters. (Gal. 4: 1-7) (Rom. 8: 10-18) We are to mature to our calling and election. Mature means from a child to an adult, not to continue on as a child (Heb. 5: 12-14) and (6: 1-12) In Christ Body (Church) God is our Father and Christ is our brother...not our parents. We are not called to sit in the pews, but to fellowship, exhort, study God's word and Spirit led prayer, to equip the Saints to witness and preach the Gospel of the kingdom of Heaven and the grace of God in Jesus The Christ. The body of Christ is sent into the world continue the work of Christ. Not by the will of the flesh, but by the power of the spirit of TRUTH and expect the same treatment as Christ. We are not above the Master, if they did not honor Christ, then they will not honor you.

I don't disagree, but you must be dependent on Christ like a small child is to their parents.

 

[GodsGrace]

In your post you said "Jesus said we're to become like children. Mathew 18:3
Children love and trust their parents. They DO what their parents ask them to if the relationship is to be a good one."

While this is true, might I suggest like a child is dependent on their parents....we like a child should be dependent on Jesus.

Perfect.
Who said they shouldn't be (dependent on Jesus)??
Only by depending on Jesus can we do what we should do and become what we should become.
It's futile to believe in Jesus if my life does not show my conviction.
It's futile for me to say I Love The Lord, and then not go visit a sick relative in the hospital.
What kind of testimony is that?
The parable of the good samaritan comes to mind. Jesus told the parable to show that all are our neighbor - to show that the Samaritan (of all people since they were so hated) did the right thing by stopping to help the man that had been robbed and to care for him. Do some really believe Jesus was okay with the priest and the Levite?
I like to say that Jesus gives us the power to do what is right. "To do" denotes an action, a doing.
How could any Christian believe that doing good works is a bad thing?
I have a really difficult time with this and don't understand what the argument is about.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Biblical believing and obeying are interchangeable.

IOW unbelief is disobedience.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

The reason the children of Israel, who left Egypt, did not enter the promised land was; they didn't believe God, therefore they didn't obey.

The King James says it this way -

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Let's look at the context, and the point Paul [or,the writer of the book of Hebrews] is making. The same principle of the law of faith that James teaches, as well as Paul, is also being pointed out here.

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience...
Hebrews 4:1-6

...but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Can you see what is being said here?

The word which they heard did not profit them... those who heard it.

The heard and therefore had faith, however there faith [from the word they heard did not profit them, did not benefit them, did not produce a dive result for which it was intended, because; they did not act, that is to say, put action [obedience] with their faith, and therefore it did not profit them.

Faith must be mixed together with obedience, for there to be a divine result; ie - for the faith we have when we hear God speak to us, to produce a divine result.


Example:

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.
Matthew 9:20-22

Had the woman stayed back and not moved into action to touch the hem of His garment, the faith she had would not have profited her.


To be continued...


JLB

Biblical believing and obeying are interchangeable.
Disobedience is unbelief.

Of course. This is also true in life. If I love someone and believe them, I also agree to obey what they ask and DO what they ask. If I don't believe in them, disobeying is easy since unbelief denotes not trusting and not agreeing to.

Maybe I'm ignorant and don't understand how the word "work" is being used on these threads.
Do missionaries work? Would those against work say that missionaries are risking their lives for nothing?
Jesus said to go into all the world and preach. Mark 16:15
And to teach them to OBSERVE all that He had said, Mathew 28:20
Is this what some here would call work?

A poster said that going to church is a legalistic "work."
Paul (?) said not to forsake the assembling of ourselves. Hebrews 10:25
Am I to stop going to church because it's a "work"?

I'm to change and transform myself with the help of God,
Is this a work?

I agree with you. Our faith does not benefit us if it does not create a good change and it does not help us to DO what is right in God's eyes.

I love that you used Mathew 9:20-22 I use that scripture to show that we must MOVE. If Jesus doesn't touch you - you touch Jesus. A movement is necessary, a doing. The woman moved and acted - she touched the hem of Jesus' tunic - she DID something.

Yes. I have a difficult time understanding what is wrong with works.

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

Who said they shouldn't be (dependent on Jesus)??

I'm thinking Cygnus' purpose wasn't to point out what someone may have said incorrectly. I think in this instance he was just was pointing out a different aspect of being as a child per Jesus' command.