Evolution+Deeptime question

[KV-44-v1]

QUESTION: Why do people believe in Darwin Evolution, cosmic evolution, and/or millions of years, even though it evidently contradicts Genesis and erodes Biblical trust?

Sure Creation vs Evolution is not a salvation issue, but it is the foundation of our faith. And when that foundation is compromised, more compromise will come.

QUESTION 2: Why do many Christians Not see these facts and conclusions on these?

 

[donadams]

T

The contradiction lies on whether humans have a soul or not. If yes then evolution must be false, unless scientists provide an explanation on how a soul is evolved from. While an explanation is more or less a belief, as pointed out above.

he evidence for the soul is that we are alive!

The soul is the form of the body and necessary for the body to live, and the fact that unlike the animals we are created in the inage and likeness of God! (Intellect & volition)

Thks

 

[Tenchi]

QUESTION: Why do people believe in Darwin Evolution, cosmic evolution, and/or millions of years, even though it evidently contradicts Genesis and erodes Biblical trust?

Well, they do so, in some cases at least, because they sincerely believe that there is good scientific evidence - that is, concrete, physical fact - to think the universe is many billions of years old. Sometimes, these sincere folk are misinformed about the science of the things you've mentioned. The ToE, for instance, is increasingly rejected by secular scientists in various fields because it is rife with theory-dissolving problems for which there are no good answers. Abiogenesis, genetic information, irreducible complexity, the generally deleterious effects of mutation, the absence of support in the fossil record, the lack of sufficient time for the proposed evolutionary distance of the ToE to be covered, and so on profoundly disqualify the ToE as a viable theory. But the ToE has such cultural momentum behind it that most people just assume it's as scientifically certain as the Law of Gravity and can't, therefore, be questioned. And, of course, there are folk - scientists, mainly - seriously invested in the ToE who defend it rabidly, though they know its a collapsed theory.

The Genesis account of Creation also leaves room for interpretive variation regarding timelines. Dr. John Lennox's book "Seven Days That Divide the World" gives a very good explanation of how. And so, sincere, Bible-respecting Christians hold varying views on the actual timespan of Creation. There's nothing nefarious, nothing insidious, about their doing so.

 

[miamited]

But ultimately, if God did create this realm in which we exist, from the furthest star in the universe to us, to the basic, smallest micro-part that makes up all the physical 'things' of this earth on which we live, as He seems to clearly explain that He did, then wouldn't not believing that make one an unbeliever in what the Scriptures reveal to us?

I mean, I know a God who can turn back the shadow of the sun. I know a God who can hold the sun over a specific point of the earth for hours rather than the brief minutes that it normally moves across a place on the earth. I know a God who can cause the deaths of just the firstborn of man and animal in an entire city in one night. I know a God who can make an iron ax head float. I know a God who can place lovingly inside the womb of a young woman His very essence in a human baby, that had no human semen to begin its life. I know a God who can tell me 483 years before the Messiah came, that the Messiah would be here in 483 years.

So for me, believing in a God who can merely command an entire universe comprised of trillions of stars and planets and asteroids and all that make up the heavens around us with just commanding it to be and it is immediately so, is no problem. But of course, what God made has a physical make-up and man keeps trying to find all of the answers to life in the physical make-up of the things of this existence. Relying on the things that God has made and not the things that God has told us, to determine 'how' we got here.

And despite everyone saying it's not a particularly important issue, It was important enough for God to point it out to us as a part of His law to us. So, I think, hmmmmmm, when I read over that part where the Lord says, in establishing the practice of the Sabbath, "Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

God actually established the fact that He created all that is in both the heavens around us and the earth beneath us in 6 days and tells us that is why the Sabbath is mirrored by six days of work and a day of rest. Thereby establishing the gournds of a week as a measurement of passing days since the beginning. But He is very, very clear in both accounts of the law given to us in two of the writtings of the old covenant, that He created all that exists in the heavens and on the earth in 6 days.

Then in the account of all that He did during that six day period in the opening writings of Genesis (the beginning BTW) He describes each day as consisting of an evening and a morning. That is the best descriptor of a 24 hour day, just as we experience still today, that anyone could give.

 

[Vaccine]

But ultimately, if God did create this realm in which we exist, from the furthest star in the universe to us, to the basic, smallest micro-part that makes up all the physical 'things' of this earth on which we live, as He seems to clearly explain that He did, then wouldn't not believing that make one an unbeliever in what the Scriptures reveal to us?

I mean, I know a God who can turn back the shadow of the sun. I know a God who can hold the sun over a specific point of the earth for hours rather than the brief minutes that it normally moves across a place on the earth. I know a God who can cause the deaths of just the firstborn of man and animal in an entire city in one night. I know a God who can make an iron ax head float. I know a God who can place lovingly inside the womb of a young woman His very essence in a human baby, that had no human semen to begin its life. I know a God who can tell me 483 years before the Messiah came, that the Messiah would be here in 483 years.

So for me, believing in a God who can merely command an entire universe comprised of trillions of stars and planets and asteroids and all that make up the heavens around us with just commanding it to be and it is immediately so, is no problem. But of course, what God made has a physical make-up and man keeps trying to find all of the answers to life in the physical make-up of the things of this existence. Relying on the things that God has made and not the things that God has told us, to determine 'how' we got here.

And despite everyone saying it's not a particularly important issue, It was important enough for God to point it out to us as a part of His law to us. So, I think, hmmmmmm, when I read over that part where the Lord says, in establishing the practice of the Sabbath, "Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

God actually established the fact that He created all that is in both the heavens around us and the earth beneath us in 6 days and tells us that is why the Sabbath is mirrored by six days of work and a day of rest. Thereby establishing the gournds of a week as a measurement of passing days since the beginning. But He is very, very clear in both accounts of the law given to us in two of the writtings of the old covenant, that He created all that exists in the heavens and on the earth in 6 days.

Then in the account of all that He did during that six day period in the opening writings of Genesis (the beginning BTW) He describes each day as consisting of an evening and a morning. That is the best descriptor of a 24 hour day, just as we experience still today, that anyone could give.

Good points. It was reading verses like than more and more than left me less and less wiggle room for clinging to my old secular beliefs. It's clear Jesus didn't see Noah, Jonah, Moses, Adam, or 6 days as allegory. If God can tell men ahead of time the details surrounding Christ's birth, life, death, and then raise his son from the dead, then other things done in Genesis are easy by comparison.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

QUESTION: Why do people believe in Darwin Evolution, cosmic evolution, and/or millions of years, even though it evidently contradicts Genesis and erodes Biblical trust?

They're deceived by the inaccurate carbon dating. Deep down, they worship the creation rather than the Creator.

 

[Tenchi]

But ultimately, if God did create this realm in which we exist, from the furthest star in the universe to us, to the basic, smallest micro-part that makes up all the physical 'things' of this earth on which we live, as He seems to clearly explain that He did, then wouldn't not believing that make one an unbeliever in what the Scriptures reveal to us?

I mean, I know a God who can turn back the shadow of the sun. I know a God who can hold the sun over a specific point of the earth for hours rather than the brief minutes that it normally moves across a place on the earth. I know a God who can cause the deaths of just the firstborn of man and animal in an entire city in one night. I know a God who can make an iron ax head float. I know a God who can place lovingly inside the womb of a young woman His very essence in a human baby, that had no human semen to begin its life. I know a God who can tell me 483 years before the Messiah came, that the Messiah would be here in 483 years.

So for me, believing in a God who can merely command an entire universe comprised of trillions of stars and planets and asteroids and all that make up the heavens around us with just commanding it to be and it is immediately so, is no problem. But of course, what God made has a physical make-up and man keeps trying to find all of the answers to life in the physical make-up of the things of this existence. Relying on the things that God has made and not the things that God has told us, to determine 'how' we got here.

Well, a Christian who believes God used a process called the Big Bang to enact the creation of the universe isn't denying God is the "Big Banger." God could act in supernatural ways within the universe all the time, if He wished to, accomplishing what He wills solely by miraculous acts instead, constantly violating the natural laws of the universe He made. But He doesn't. Instead, He acts mostly within, and through, the various Laws of Nature that He instituted, only very rarely contravening those laws in the fulfillment of His will. There has been, after all, only one virgin birth, only one instance of God halting the Sun for a time, only one floating axe-head, only one instance of a man walking on water, etc. These things are remarkable mainly as consequence of their singular, natural-law-confounding character. We don't take any notice of events that are common, right? No one points in wonder at a leaf falling to the ground, or gasps in awe at a person walking their golden lab down the street. It isn't, then, God's way of acting - in our world, at least - to regularly suspend natural law in exertion of His will.

Why, then, should I think that the manner in which God created the universe is any different? Of course, creation ex nihilo happened without the constraint of any natural law, but the instant time, space, matter and energy came into being, the natural laws governing them began to work to order and confine the universe and its physical operations. Holding to this understanding of the beginning of the universe doesn't in any way diminish God's sovereignty, or power, nor does it do violence to the record of Scripture. It also aligns well with what science has uncovered of the instant of creation. It's odd, then, to me to encounter Christians who bridle at the idea that God acted in formation of the universe through the natural laws He instituted.

And despite everyone saying it's not a particularly important issue, It was important enough for God to point it out to us as a part of His law to us. So, I think, hmmmmmm, when I read over that part where the Lord says, in establishing the practice of the Sabbath, "Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

Well, again, read John Lennox's book "Seven Days that Divide the World." He shows in it that there are a number of legitimate, but differing, ways of interpreting the Genesis account of creation. Before you become too dogmatic about which interpretation to adopt, perhaps give these other ways of understanding the Genesis account of creation some careful consideration.

 

[Whatever]

He acts mostly within, and through, the various Laws of Nature that He instituted, only very rarely contravening those laws in the fulfillment of His will.

I see God doing this with the Sodom incident. We now know about bolides - asteroids that explode in the air and leave a kind of "fire and brimstone" effect. God could have prepared that asteroid for centuries or years before to come down and explode over Sodom at just the right second. I don't see it being a "fire and brimstone out of nothing" miracle.

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.

Same with Jesus turning water into wine. He already had all the H2O atoms there in those jugs, all He had to do was rearrange some of them.
We couldn't even do that today with all our technology.

 

[Free]

Well, again, read John Lennox's book "Seven Days that Divide the World." He shows in it that there are a number of legitimate, but differing, ways of interpreting the Genesis account of creation. Before you become too dogmatic about which interpretation to adopt, perhaps give these other ways of understanding the Genesis account of creation some careful consideration.

This. That is an excellent book from a conservative Christian. I can't remember if it's that book or another of his, but he also talks about the category error of saying that it is either evolution or God--evolution being a mechanism and God an intelligent agent. But intelligent agents use mechanisms, so they are in entirely different categories and it isn't "either or" and could be "both and."

 

[miamited]

Well, a Christian who believes God used a process called the Big Bang to enact the creation of the universe isn't denying God is the "Big Banger."

Hi Tenchi
Possibly. I haven't yet heard of a big bang theory that postulates that the earth existed before the sun and stars.

 

[miamited]

violating the natural laws of the universe He made.

Like the one that makes it impossible that a wall of water stood on both the left side and the right side of the Israelites as they passed through the sea? Or the one that makes it impossible that a baby was conceived and nurtured in a woman's body for 9 months without a man having ever had sexual relations with her. Those natural laws that God wouldn't break are some of the ones that you are referring to?

What do the natural laws that God has set in place say about a woman becoming pregnant? What about the one that says that water always seeks to level itself? How about the one that says that the sun cannot stand still in the sky or go backwards in someway that would turn a shadow back on itself? Those natural laws that God wouldn't break?

 

[miamited]

These things are remarkable mainly as consequence of their singular, natural-law-confounding character.

And so, just after saying that God doesn't break his natural laws, you give four examples where he did. Ok.

Consider that as far as the natural laws that you want to ascribe to the universe that makes it sound like God is working against his own laws, didn't come into effect until AFTER the creation was set in place. And I'm not really clear on exactly what natural laws you believe that God broke, if He did create this realm as He has claimed to have done?

 

[miamited]

BTW as far as finding books that support many and sundry various ideas and positions on subjects of interest, you do know that there are many, many books that prove that the Muslim faith is the true faith... right? As I've said, when you take all of the evidences that are found in the Scriptures on the matter, there really isn't any way to match any scientific finding so far that matches with what the Scriptures say.

As the example I gave above, what big bang theory postulates that the earth existed before the sun, moon and stars? And what big bang theory matches with God's words in the very giving of the law that He created all that is in the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in it in six days? Yes, I understand that there are hundreds of books and scientific journals that will deny that God created this realm in which we exist in 6 days. Or that have some convoluted theory that doesn't match the description that God has given us, but explains it all while still allowing that God did it. I get that. But I also know that there are books piled high that tell us that there are many gods and there are other gods and there are no gods. But the Scriptures declare of themselves to be the very oracles of the one true and living God and God has proven to us that they are true and that He is the one God who really knows the end from the beginning and all that is going on in this world through prophetic foretelling of events to happen in the future.

God is wiser than you or I could ever hope to imagine to be, and He has given us His testimony of 'how' we got here. 'why' we are here. And 'where' this life is ultimately going to end up. That God has declared to you that He made all that exists in 6 days. He defined each singular day as consisting of one evening and morning. He couldn't have possibly made it any more clear to us, but then we have science. And because we think of ourselves to be soooo much smarter than God, our scientists have given us many, many alternate explanations for 'how' we got to be living here in what we call the year 2024 on the spinning ball of dirt and rock that we call the earth.

Listen, God wrote His testimony to you because God knew that the day was coming when men would not put up with sound doctrine. God wrote His testimony to you in words and terms that He knew man would understand. According to God's testimony, the earth was formed first. Then came the living plants and then came the sun, moon and stars. When I read a scientific account that follows that chronology of the creation, then I'll likely take some heed and read about what scientists have postulated as the 'way' that God created this realm in which we exist. But the only thing that I am absolutely sure in the deepest part of my heart and mind is that God's word is the truth of what God has done. No one else was there but the trinity of God and the angelic realm. Beyond that, man can only guess... and so he does.

 

[miamited]

There has been, after all, only one virgin birth, only one instance of God halting the Sun for a time, only one floating axe-head, only one instance of a man walking on water, etc.

And finish off your list of things that God has done by acting outside of your 'known natural laws', with the creation of all that exists. There you go! Five times that God has worked outside of the natural laws. I honestly don't understand why you allow that God can do what I'm saying that He's done,, but deny that He did it as He said He did it. He can impregnate a young woman miraculously. He can make a man walk on water miraculously. He can turn back the sun miraculously. But in your mind, He can't create all that exists, miraculously. No! That has to be done by the way that science tells you that it is done and not the way the Scriptures tell us that it was done.

Ok. I'm sticking with what God has said.

 

[Free]

Ok. I'm sticking with what God has said.

But isn’t that the root of the issue, which would be begging the question by assuming you actually know what God has said? It is to assume that your interpretation is the correct one while ignoring the other legitimate ways of understanding the seven days of creation.

 

[miamited]

But isn’t that the root of the issue, which would be begging the question by assuming you actually know what God has said? It is to assume that your interpretation is the correct one while ignoring the other legitimate ways of understanding the seven days of creation.

I can read. So yes, I think anyone can actually know what God has said. The problem is that science has offered their own interpretation of the facts, and they don't fit with God's and so everyone is trying to reconcile the scientific explanation with God's explanation. God said 'day'. He defined each day as consisting of an evening and a morning. There's really no way to get around that except to throw out the 'evening and the morning' part and just quibble over just what the single word 'day' might mean. You see, I believe God wiser than any of us and I consider that God knows the end from the beginning. I believe that God further defined each day as consisting of only one evening and one morning because God knew that there'd be a day that people would argue over what the word 'day' might mean. So God has clarified that for our understanding. There is, as far as I'm aware at this point, only one way to understand a day that consists of an evening and a morning. What you got?

If you'd care to, you can explain to me how someone has stretched the 6 days of creation, but still maintains the singular evening and morning descriptor. I'm down for listening, but I'm not going to waste my time reading whole books that I know aren't able to reconcile those facts that are found in God's word. But you go ahead.

You see, the God I know, He can merely speak an entire planet to just exist just by His command that it exist. The God I know works with purpose and power and He doesn't need 10 billion years for some heavenly body to come into existence. He merely commands that it exist, and it does. Which is what the Genesis account tells us. Then, in the span of one rotation of the planet, He commands that plants spring forth from the earth and they do. I believe that God can do that and that God has told us that's how He did it.

But science can't prove God and so it just doesn't accept that planets and stars can just not exist one moment and fill the universe in the next moment at the command of God, which they can't prove. So what do they do? They start studying and extrapolating and stretching here and there until they come up with some grand and glorious explanation for how everything that we see when looking up into the night sky got there that takes billions of years. That's not what God's word tells us.

Yes, I believe that I am correctly understanding God's word. So far, I have not heard any 'legitimate' alternate explanation that encompasses all of the fact s of the matter that God has given us. What do you have? You want to stretch out days to mean ages, but you can't do that if a day is defined as one evening and morning. There's only one understanding of day that fits that descriptor and that's a normal, pretty much 24 hour day, that we still experience today as a day passes. Of course, if you overlook the evening and morning descriptor, sure, you can make days as long as you want them to be. And when God wrote in the law that He made everything in six days, do you understand the word day there to mean ages, also?

 

[miamited]

In fact, that's exactly what God has declared to us in His word:

You are worthy our Lord and God to receive all glory, honor and power. For YOU CREATED ALL THINGS. By YOUR WILL all things were created and have their being.

You see, God has told you that it is merely by His will that all things are created. Science tells you that's not possible. Here's what really happened. We can prove it! And people believe the wisdom of man over the power of God.

 

[Free]

I can read. So yes, I think anyone can actually know what God has said.

Every Christian scientist, philosopher of science, theologian, and scholar that have various views of the six days of creation can also read. So, again, it is to fallaciously beg the question to think that simply because you can read that you have actually understood the meaning.

The problem is that science has offered their own interpretation of the facts, and they don't fit with God's and so everyone is trying to reconcile the scientific explanation with God's explanation. God said 'day'. He defined each day as consisting of an evening and a morning. There's really no way to get around that except to throw out the 'evening and the morning' part and just quibble over just what the single word 'day' might mean. You see, I believe God wiser than any of us and I consider that God knows the end from the beginning. I believe that God further defined each day as consisting of only one evening and one morning because God knew that there'd be a day that people would argue over what the word 'day' might mean. So God has clarified that for our understanding. There is, as far as I'm aware at this point, only one way to understand a day that consists of an evening and a morning. What you got?

If you'd care to, you can explain to me how someone has stretched the 6 days of creation, but still maintains the singular evening and morning descriptor.

Except that early theologians, such as Augustine, didn't have the scientific knowledge we have, yet believed in an old earth and had varying views on the creation account. You can't just straw man it to be a modern issue.

I'm down for listening, but I'm not going to waste my time reading whole books that I know aren't able to reconcile those facts that are found in God's word. But you go ahead.

Not only is this again fallaciously begging the question, this is an un-Christian position to take. It not only means you want to remain willfully ignorant, it means that you have set yourself up as the sole arbiter of what the text means, of what "those facts" actually are. This is all the more troubling when those who likely have significantly more understanding than you are saying there are other legitimate was to understand the text.

You see, the God I know, He can merely speak an entire planet to just exist just by His command that it exist. The God I know works with purpose and power and He doesn't need 10 billion years for some heavenly body to come into existence. He merely commands that it exist, and it does.

Of course he can, that is not the issue. The issue is, did he?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Of course he can, that is not the issue. The issue is, did he?

What our world to God is like what a computer simulated world (e.g. the Matrix) to us. This world is temporary, heaven and earth are temporary, they WILL pass away as God said (Matt. 5:18) and revealed (Rev. 21:1-4), there's a spiritual world (2 Cor. 5:1, Rev. 22:5) beyond time and space where we'll be with God for eternity, none of those is a "simile". If you believe that, then God absolutely did. Technically God didn't build the world atom by atom, he SPOKE the world into being. God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. That is known as ex nihilim, "out of nothing", not assembling or synthesizing, the closest example in our world to that is computer simulation.

 

[miamited]

Of course he can, that is not the issue. The issue is, did he?

Well, according to the plain reading of His testimony to us, yes, He did.

 

[miamited]

Hi again Free

So, just so I understand your position. You believe that God could have created this realm of existence in 6 days. God has told you that He created this realm of existence in 6 days. But you don't believe God's testimony, because man's science has proven to you that He didn't. I asked you previously how you understand that place in the law where God says that He created all that is in the heavens and the earth and the sea in six days. How do you understand those 6 days? Were they ages or merely what are accounted as regular days by the rotation of the earth upon its axis? Is God not being truthful somehow in making that claim of His work that He created the heavens and the earth and the seas and all that is in them in six days? What support for your position do you have that reconciles the claim that the creation days consisted of evening and morning?

Just curious. You keep telling me to read a bunch of learned scholars. But I'm asking you what you believe about the creation of this realm in which we live.