Evolution+Deeptime question

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KV-44-v1

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QUESTION: Why do people believe in Darwin Evolution, cosmic evolution, and/or millions of years, even though it evidently contradicts Genesis and erodes Biblical trust?

Sure Creation vs Evolution is not a salvation issue, but it is the foundation of our faith. And when that foundation is compromised, more compromise will come.

QUESTION 2: Why do many Christians Not see these facts and conclusions on these?
 
I can understand why a lot of Christians accept what scientists say. They are very smart and educated people, who generally know what they're talking about. It's hard to see where the line is between science and a worldview. It's there if one looks hard enough.

When I became a Christian at 27, I shoehorned Darwin/cosmic evolution/millions of years into my new worldview. I grew up in an agnostic home where nobody ever discussed creation or evolution. I just never had a reason to examine anything beyond the superficial. My views have changed over time. I understand the obvious contradictions Ken Ham points out and no longer think of Genesis as allegory. I still lean toward an old universe, young Earth since I haven't found any good argument against starlight and time. But I've found many good reasons to doubt Darwinian evolution and believe Adam and Eve were literal people.

I think takes time for some Christians to reconcile their faith with what scientist say. The important thing is to keep seeking answers and contemplating these issues.

Romans 12:2 "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind."

Dyonisius the Areopagite responds:
Concerning starlight and time I highly recommend the following book as the creationist alternative:

 
But you don't believe God's testimony, because man's science has proven to you that He didn't.
Look, the path to atheism often begins with fanaticism. This is because atheists are those who don't believe there is anything beyond a literal interpretation of reality, while fanatics are those who don't believe there is anything beyond a literal interpretation of words. It’s the same mentality, as you can see.

However, reality is far more complex than what atheists and fanatics believe. Religious texts have numerous interpretations, and many of them hold validity. This is why Jesus speaks through parables and not literally—because understanding the things of God requires not only intellect but also heart.

Matthew 13:15

For the heart of this people has grown dull,
and with their ears they barely hear,
and they have closed their eyes;
so that they do not see with their eyes,
nor hear with their ears,
but understand with their hearts,
and turn, and I would heal them.


You are correct in one thing: God is the wisest of all. But on the rest, I must disagree with you, because you interpret everything literally, without deeper understanding. We know the universe is vastly larger than we ever imagined. There are trillions of stars, galaxies, and probably civilizations out there. It’s even likely that we are not the most interesting beings in this universe.

I strongly doubt that the concept of time applies to God, as I believe God exists beyond time. "Six days" could be a metaphor for many things. After all, if God needed six days to create Earth, how many days would it have taken to create all the other planets and galaxies in the universe?

Science does not contradict religion; it only contradicts our limited understanding of religion. And that is an entirely different matter.

My position is that no one can fully understand the truth; therefore, trying to replace someone else’s lies with our own lies is a futile endeavor. This means you should hold onto your own truth, but refrain from imposing it on others.
 
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Hi @Tenchi
Possibly. I haven't yet heard of a big bang theory that postulates that the earth existed before the sun and stars.

Well, as Lennox's book explains, it was not the goal of the first two chapters of Genesis to offer a rigid, linear progression of events, which is why the description of creation in the first chapter appears to conflict with that of the second chapter.

Also, there is nothing in the Big Bang Theory that prohibits the earth forming prior to the Sun and Moon.

Like the one that makes it impossible that a wall of water stood on both the left side and the right side of the Israelites as they passed through the sea? Or the one that makes it impossible that a baby was conceived and nurtured in a woman's body for 9 months without a man having ever had sexual relations with her. Those natural laws that God wouldn't break are some of the ones that you are referring to?

But I didn't say God wouldn't ever break the natural laws He instituted over Creation. In fact, I cited a number of one-time events where God did exactly this (the virgin birth, an axe head floating, Christ walking on water). Why are you responding here as though I hadn't?

What do the natural laws that God has set in place say about a woman becoming pregnant? What about the one that says that water always seeks to level itself? How about the one that says that the sun cannot stand still in the sky or go backwards in someway that would turn a shadow back on itself? Those natural laws that God wouldn't break?

??? Again, I never said God wouldn't ever break the laws of Nature. I actually said the opposite. But He does so very, very rarely, most of the time working within and through the physical laws He put in place in the universe. Why are you overstating my position? Are you attempting to Strawman my remarks? It seems like it.

And so, just after saying that God doesn't break his natural laws, you give four examples where he did. Ok.

I'm not sure why you're trying to imply that what I wrote was self-contradictory. It wasn't. See above. Or read my last post to you again more carefully.

Consider that as far as the natural laws that you want to ascribe to the universe that makes it sound like God is working against his own laws, didn't come into effect until AFTER the creation was set in place. And I'm not really clear on exactly what natural laws you believe that God broke, if He did create this realm as He has claimed to have done?

I'm ascribing natural laws to the universe? No, I'm simply acknowledging that they exist and that, most of the time, God works within and through those laws, not in contravention of them. This is not a controversial view to hold...

And I never claimed God created the universe through natural laws, breaking these laws in the act of Creation. As I indicated in my last post to you, it is obvious that such a thing is impossible if creation was ex nihilo, as the Bible indicates it was.

BTW as far as finding books that support many and sundry various ideas and positions on subjects of interest, you do know that there are many, many books that prove that the Muslim faith is the true faith... right? As I've said, when you take all of the evidences that are found in the Scriptures on the matter, there really isn't any way to match any scientific finding so far that matches with what the Scriptures say.

Do you know what specious reasoning is? It's the sort of reasoning you've employed in the quotation above. Lennox's book has nothing to do with Islam. His book addresses the biblical accounts of Creation, working to understand the event in light both of God's word and scientific research. Pointing to it as a source of thoughtful consideration of the matter of Creation in no way denies that there are "many and sundry various ideas and positions on the subject." In fact, Lennox's book itself offers a number of differing views on the Genesis account. And I don't agree with your final statement in the quotation above. It seems to have been made from a vacuum of knowledge about what and how Christians interpret the scientific data concerning Creation.

As the example I gave above, what big bang theory postulates that the earth existed before the sun, moon and stars?

Why do you believe the BB Theory necessitates that the Sun exist prior to the formation of the earth?

And what big bang theory matches with God's words in the very giving of the law that He created all that is in the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in it in six days?

Well, as I've explained, God uses the things He creates to accomplish His will. This certainly appears to be the case with the creation of the universe. And, as Lennox shows in his book, there are a number of ways in which the Genesis accounts can be understood - Ken Hamm, et al, notwithstanding - that reconcile what science has discovered with the record of the Bible. It isn't necessary to hold the two things - scientific discovery and the Bible - in antagonistic tension with each other. A Big Bang needs a Big Banger.

Yes, I understand that there are hundreds of books and scientific journals that will deny that God created this realm in which we exist in 6 days.

Because? Is it just blind, willful denial of Scripture that is the aim of these books and journals? Perhaps in some cases, yes. But not in all. There are many sincere, Christ-loving, Bible-respecting Christians who don't take the Y.E.C. view of the Bible's accounts of Creation. Instead, they are trying to understand how what science has revealed fits best with what God has revealed in His word, not just rebelliously defy Scripture as you seem to imply above.

Continued below.
 
Or that have some convoluted theory that doesn't match the description that God has given us, but explains it all while still allowing that God did it.

A Big Bang needing a Big Banger is not particularly "convoluted" to me...

But I also know that there are books piled high that tell us that there are many gods and there are other gods and there are no gods. But the Scriptures declare of themselves to be the very oracles of the one true and living God and God has proven to us that they are true and that He is the one God who really knows the end from the beginning and all that is going on in this world through prophetic foretelling of events to happen in the future.

But why do you trust the Bible is, indeed, the word of God? Because it says so of itself? I hope not. Taking this view would be starkly circular in its reasoning.

I believe God's word is what it says it is because of extra-biblical reasons to do so, not solely because it claims to be God's word. Thematic unity, fulfilled prophecy, historicity, survivability, effect upon nations and individuals, correspondence to reality, expanatory scope, etc. - these all confirm to me that the Bible is divine revelation. When I make a comparison of the Bible, then, to other religious texts, I can see that none of them "measure up." They all of them fall far short of those things that set apart the Bible as God's word.

I must do the same evaluation against reasonable criteria when I consider the Genesis account. I don't just assume that the account ought to be taken just as its given - especially when solid, empirical data indicates there's more to the story than the account imparts to the reader.

God is wiser than you or I could ever hope to imagine to be, and He has given us His testimony of 'how' we got here.

Yes. But His "testimony" is not by any means an exhaustive description of the mechanics of the event. Science furnishes us with more of this dimension of the story.

He defined each singular day as consisting of one evening and morning. He couldn't have possibly made it any more clear to us, but then we have science.

Well, as I've pointed out, what you think is "clear" turns out to be not so clear. Read Lennox's book.

And because we think of ourselves to be soooo much smarter than God, our scientists have given us many, many alternate explanations for 'how' we got to be living here in what we call the year 2024 on the spinning ball of dirt and rock that we call the earth.

I suppose some scientists may think they are "soooo much smarter than God" - really, I think, mostly, the secular ones deny God exists and so make no comparisons to Him at all.

It's been observed, of course, that "science doesn't say anything; scientists do." And so, I keep this in mind when considering the interpretation of the data that a God-denying scientist offers. Fortunately, there are very high-level scientists who are Christians - Dr. James Tour, Dr. Stephen Meyers, Dr. Hugh Ross, Dr, Michael Behe, etc, who can tell us what the data of scientific exploration reveals. And though their explanations can be very involved and technical (read "Signature in the Cell," or "Darwin's Doubt" by Meyers, or listen to one of Dr. Tour's YouTube lectures on abiogenesis), they are able to assure us that the biblical account of Creation is not eroded but established by science.

It seems, though, that some Christians don't want to bother with the God-confirming data coming from scientific research, not because it isn't supportive of the Christian worldview, but because understanding the data requires that they think in a deeper, more sophisticated way. They want a "simple faith" and bridle at those who complicate it. For myself, I'm glad of the Christian scientists who've been able to offer a natural theology to me that helps ground my worldview, not in blind faith, but in solid, very reasonable, empirical fact.

Listen, God wrote His testimony to you because God knew that the day was coming when men would not put up with sound doctrine.

He gave us the divine revelation of Scripture to guide us, to constrain us, and, most importantly, to reveal Himself and something of His will and purposes to us. (See Psalms 1; Psalms 119; 2 Timothy 3:16-17.)

But the only thing that I am absolutely sure in the deepest part of my heart and mind is that God's word is the truth of what God has done. No one else was there but the trinity of God and the angelic realm. Beyond that, man can only guess... and so he does.

Not guess, deduce. This is what science and scientists are always doing (and philosophy and philosophers before them). And it is what we do many times a day, too, with lesser, more mundane things, trusting our deductions quite a lot, in some cases. For an example of what may be deduced from the facts of the beginning of Creation, consider the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

This syllogism is logically airtight, the conclusion following necessarily from the premises such that if the conclusion is correct, it is so as certainly as anything else we believe we can know for sure. But this syllogism isn't a guess any more than the expansion of the universe is a guess. From both things, reasonable deductions (or inferences, if you like) can be made as to the nature of the universe and the character of its beginning that one can hold to with well-justified confidence.
 
And finish off your list of things that God has done by acting outside of your 'known natural laws', with the creation of all that exists. There you go! Five times that God has worked outside of the natural laws. I honestly don't understand why you allow that God can do what I'm saying that He's done,, but deny that He did it as He said He did it.

But I'm not. Please read my posts more carefully.
 
"Six days" could be a metaphor for many things. After all, if God needed six days to create Earth
But what if God didn't need six days to create the Earth? What if He did it for a purpose?

Exodus 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Here God is giving us the 7 day week to keep time. The moon helps us with months. The trip around the sun gives us the year. The earth's tilt gives us the seasons. I think hours, minutes and seconds is something we figured out.

During the French Revolution they changed all this to get rid of God. They made a 10 day week. Each of the 360 days in the year was named for a seed, tree, flower, fruit, animal, or tool, replacing the saints’-day names and Christian festivals.
At the end of the year were grouped five (six in leap years) supplementary days.
 
Hi LOOKING
This is because atheists are those who don't believe there is anything beyond a literal interpretation of reality, while fanatics are those who don't believe there is anything beyond a literal interpretation of words.
What? Where in the world did you find that definition for an atheist?
Science does not contradict religion
Probably not. What science contradicts is the truth of God's word. Don't know anything about it contradicting religion, whatever that means.
 
Hi Tenchi
But I didn't say God wouldn't ever break the natural laws He instituted over Creation. In fact, I cited a number of one-time events where God did exactly this (the virgin birth, an axe head floating, Christ walking on water). Why are you responding here as though I hadn't?
Which was exactly my point to you. Glad that you got it. You believe that God can break the natural laws that we see in the creation, but you don't believe that He did so in the moments of the creation event. Yeah, I think I understood what you were saying.
Because? Is it just blind, willful denial of Scripture that is the aim of these books and journals?
No, it's the same failing of mankinds understanding of the things of God, just as the Jews didn't seem to understand that Jesus was standing before them at the exact moment that Daniel told them that he would be. It's just lack of understanding, which is what God said about His people Israel.

"The ox knows its master, the donkey its owner’s manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.”

Theologians don't go about willfully denying the truth of God, they just don't understand the truth of God.
Yes. But His "testimony" is not by any means an exhaustive description of the mechanics of the event. Science furnishes us with more of this dimension of the story.
Of course it isn't exhaustive, but it does give some facts that we need to be able to incorporate in any understanding that we have.
 
But why do you trust the Bible is, indeed, the word of God? Because it says so of itself? I hope not. Taking this view would be starkly circular in its reasoning.
If God cannot lie, then why wouldn't I trust what His words say about His testimony? And for the record, the reason that I believe that God's word is true is because I have taken Him up on the very challenge that He gave unto Israel. That what He says will happen will come to pass. Prophecy! That's how God told Israel that they can know who the true God is. It still is.
 
Which was exactly my point to you. Glad that you got it. You believe that God can break the natural laws that we see in the creation, but you don't believe that He did so in the moments of the creation event. Yeah, I think I understood what you were saying.

No, in fact you haven't understood what I've been writing, as your remarks above demonstrate.

As I've already explained, there were no natural laws to break until God brought material reality into being. But the coming into being of physical reality was simultaneous with the coming into being of the natural laws that constrain and shape that reality. And so, God created supernaturally ex nihilo because there is no other way to have done so. But the instant physical reality existed, the necessary laws governing it also existed and through those laws God fashioned the universe we know. So, in the Creation event, God acted BOTH supernaturally and through natural laws.

Theologians don't go about willfully denying the truth of God, they just don't understand the truth of God.

How, then, are they properly called theologians?

Of course it isn't exhaustive, but it does give some facts that we need to be able to incorporate in any understanding that we have.

Yes. But Ken Hamm isn't the only one whose perspective properly conforms to the record of Scripture - as Lennox's book illustrates.

If God cannot lie, then why wouldn't I trust what His words say about His testimony?

Are you saying you do subscribe to a circular form of reasoning in trusting the claims of the Bible? I sure hope not.

As I've already noted, fulfilled prophecy is an important verifier of the divine origin of the Bible. It's not the only, however.
 
Hi Tenchi
As I've already explained, there were no natural laws to break until God brought material reality into being.

I actually wrote those exact words in another thread on the matter. So, this idea that God broke any natural laws in the creation event is not a valid point. Glad we were able to get to that.
God acted BOTH supernaturally and through natural laws.
On that I disagree, but the point can be made. It just can't be proven.
How, then, are they properly called theologians?
Because they are people who study theology?
Are you saying you do subscribe to a circular form of reasoning in trusting the claims of the Bible?
Yes, when it comes to God's testimony, if he says that He can be trusted in His word... I trust that to be true without any outside evidence of such.
 
As I've already explained, there were no natural laws to break until God brought material reality into being. But the coming into being of physical reality was simultaneous with the coming into being of the natural laws that constrain and shape that reality.
I'm not so sure about that.

Heb 1:3 . . . upholding all things by the word of His power . . .
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Your idea is more like Deism. God created the universe and wound it up like a clock and now it runs by natural laws.

On the Hebrews passage, Vincent's Word Studies says:
It implies sustaining, but also movement. It deals with a burden, not as a dead weight, but as in continual movement; as Weiss puts it, “with the all in all its changes and transformations throughout the aeons.” It is concerned, not only with sustaining the weight of the universe, but also with maintaining its coherence and carrying on its development.

Every atom in the universe is sustained by Christ and nothing moves that He does not move. So all these "laws" are just Christ working.
 
What our world to God is like what a computer simulated world (e.g. the Matrix) to us. This world is temporary, heaven and earth are temporary, they WILL pass away as God said (Matt. 5:18) and revealed (Rev. 21:1-4), there's a spiritual world (2 Cor. 5:1, Rev. 22:5) beyond time and space where we'll be with God for eternity, none of those is a "simile". If you believe that, then God absolutely did.
Again, we must be careful with language, especially when it comes to beginnings and eschatology. It is quite possible that the heavens and earth will not pass away, but rather be redeemed and renewed and so be as new.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a spiritual world." As for being "beyond time and space," it might be beyond time, it might not, but I certainly don't see how it can be beyond space when it clearly talks about God's dwelling place "coming down" to earth, which is within created space:

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. (ESV)

That is how we spend eternity--literally heaven on earth.

Technically God didn't build the world atom by atom, he SPOKE the world into being.
Technically God might have built "the world atom by atom," but he did it by speaking. We don't know and we should be careful in making such assumptions.

God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. That is known as ex nihilim, "out of nothing", not assembling or synthesizing, the closest example in our world to that is computer simulation.
Okay. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything I stated.
 
Well, according to the plain reading of His testimony to us, yes, He did.
Again, that is begging the question. You're ignoring other legitimate interpretations.

So, just so I understand your position. You believe that God could have created this realm of existence in 6 days.
He could have, but even that doesn't negate the possibility of an old earth.

God has told you that He created this realm of existence in 6 days.
He did, but the issue is what is meant by "day."

But you don't believe God's testimony, because man's science has proven to you that He didn't.
Where did I say I didn't? And, again, begging the question. Why do you dismiss science on the basis of your understanding of Genesis 1?

Do you agree with David that "the heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork" (Psa. 19:1)? Or with Paul that God's "invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made" (Rom. 1:20)? If so, then shouldn't science be able to tells us things about creation? The fathers of modern science sure thought so, and here we are.

I asked you previously how you understand that place in the law where God says that He created all that is in the heavens and the earth and the sea in six days. How do you understand those 6 days? Were they ages or merely what are accounted as regular days by the rotation of the earth upon its axis? Is God not being truthful somehow in making that claim of His work that He created the heavens and the earth and the seas and all that is in them in six days?
If other parts of the Bible repeat that creation was in six days, it's because Genesis 1 tells us it was in six days. It's just being consistent. Again, the issue is the meaning of "day." I don't know how I understand it, but I'm not going to get hung up on such things.

What support for your position do you have that reconciles the claim that the creation days consisted of evening and morning?
What support do you have that there were three mornings and evenings without the sun and moon, according to your position?

Just curious. You keep telling me to read a bunch of learned scholars. But I'm asking you what you believe about the creation of this realm in which we live.
Don't be dishonest. I merely agreed with Tenchi that a book he recommended was good. I haven't kept telling you anything.
 
I'm not going to get hung up on such things
Genesis is foundational to the Christian faith. There is no reason to think that if Genesis isnt actual history, Christianity can still be true.

if God didnt start His Word with historical fact how are we supposed to trust historical facts beyond it?

BTW, no, the Bible does not teach a flat earth. If you get a kid to read it im pretty sure he wont make flat earth associations.
 
Genesis is foundational to the Christian faith. There is no reason to think that if Genesis isnt actual history, Christianity can still be true.

if God didnt start His Word with historical fact how are we supposed to trust historical facts beyond it?
Here you're also begging the question. Nothing I have said detracts from Genesis being actual history.
 
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Hi Free
Again, that is begging the question. You're ignoring other legitimate interpretations.
Actually, it was just my answer. Why do you think I'm ignoring other legitimate interpretations. I've already explained that I've just not found any of them to provide an answer that fits all the facts. Now, you're free (not a play on words) to understand that in your thinking as 'begging the question'. That's ok with me but know that I disagree.

God's word says that He did create in the plain simple meaning of the words that the Hebrews wrote, the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them in six days. I believe that! Now, you can say I'm begging all the questions that makes yourself happy. That's just what God's word says. And I have asked you over and over again to explain to me how this fabulous understanding that you've found in these other great theologians matches with the facts and, as yet, all you've done is tell me to read it. NEWSFLASH!!!! I'm not going to read an entire treatise on some understanding of the Scriptures when someone who has read it, can't even answer my simple questions from having read it themselves. How do they explain in the law that God said that He created all that is in the earth and heavens and sea in six days? Are they teaching you that the six days are ages or eons of time? If so, then how do they explain God's including that each day consisted of an evening and a morning. If you can't answer those two simple questions from reading your book, then I'm not interested. I already know what God's word says and I'm one who believes that God wrote His testimony for all to understand without some wonderful college degree on the matter. Jesus started this whole matter of salvation for all of mankind with 12 simple people who didn't have great educations, as far as we know. Paul did, but he wasn't one of the 12. God says that He created over a six day period and explains that each day ended with an evening and a morning.

So, give me a break and quit obfuscating the matter with all your 'begging the question' explanation and answer the questions that I've put before you. Otherwise, understand plea;se, that I have read most all of the alternative explanations and they just don't answer the questions that allow those explanations to match the facts that God has given us on the matter.

God's word says that the entire universe came to be by the will of God. That by His will they exist and have their being.

For the record, I believe that we live in a created realm. It was created by a loving God who created not only the world, but all that is on it and all that is in the heavens. I believe that He gave us the truth of the timeline of His creative work and He repeats it several times in His testimony to us as having been done in the span of 6 days. I believe that! I believe that each day consisted of one evening and one morning, just as every day has been since God first spoke the earth into existence. I believe that! I believe that He created the earth first (spoke it to be) and then, over the next 6 rotations of the earth (day) He covered it with land and plants and animals and also flung the stars and all that makes up the universe into the heavens. I believe that! I believe that He did all of that in the first 6 rotations of the earth upon its axis. From there we honor the seventh day of the 'week' of days that God has established and man has followed now for 6,000 years, as the day that God rested and asks us to also rest. I believe that!

But it is a created realm in which we live and as we come to the end of the Revelation of Jesus we find that God is going to do it again. All of the heavens and the earth that we know today is going to just roll up like a scroll. It will be gone in mere moments. Then God is going to create everything new again. And He's going to do it just as He did the first time. He will merely command it to exist and it will. Then we will see the new city of Zion come down from heaven to be upon the new earth where we will all live for eternity. Every eye will see that God just merely speaks things to exist and they do.

That's what I believe. Yes, I have read many writings that offer what you refer to as 'legitimate interpretations'. I have not found a one that fits all the facts that we're given by God's testimony on the matter. If you want to tell me what you've found in your simple layman's terms, I'll read it and see if it does meet the facts.

Now, I have no idea how many times I have 'begged the question' in all of this post, but if that's going to be your response to me again, please just let it go. I'm not really trying to win a debate so let's lighten up on the fallacious argument system. Just answer my questions and we can move on.