Evolution+Deeptime question

[KV-44-v1]

QUESTION: Why do people believe in Darwin Evolution, cosmic evolution, and/or millions of years, even though it evidently contradicts Genesis and erodes Biblical trust?

Sure Creation vs Evolution is not a salvation issue, but it is the foundation of our faith. And when that foundation is compromised, more compromise will come.

QUESTION 2: Why do many Christians Not see these facts and conclusions on these?

 

[miamited]

Hi Tenchi

Did Jesus's walking on the water, for example, disallow the natural movement of the waves in the wind?

No, it didn't disallow any of the properties of the waves and the winds, but it disallowed the property that water will not hold up anything heavier than itself and the object's displacement of the water around it. I mean, if Jesus' walking on water didn't disallow some natural property of the things of this realm, why can't you just go out and walk on water?

our question here assumes the reading you want to give to the Genesis account.

No, my question is merely that. A question. You seem to be making a fairly clear claim that the supernatural doesn't negate the natural laws. So I asked you, no matter how you believe that the time of the creation event was, what we see described to us in the account that would be a supernatural event and what do you read in the account that is just a natural, by the laws of nature, event. It doesn't matter 'how' you understand the length of time of the creation event.

However, you do seem to be pretty strong in trying to get people to think that when they are asking questions of you, that they are breaking some 'law' of debate or discussion.

 

[miamited]

Where did I say that I don't believe that?

Hi Free

Well, do you believe that God did create the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is them in six days?

 

[Free]

Hi Free

Well, do you believe that God did create the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is them in six days?

Of course. That is what the text says.

 

[miamited]

If so, then shouldn't science be able to tells us things about creation? The fathers of modern science sure thought so, and here we are.'

You quoted the question and issued your emphatic "NO!!!".

The part about modern science being able to provide us answers concerning the creation event, is what my emphatic no was for. Science cannot answer the work and cause of a miracle. Just as science can't tell you 'how' Jesus came to be growing in Mary's womb without having ever been with a man. Just like science cannot tell you how a great sea parted and allowed a group of at least several thousand people to walk through that opening on dry ground with a wall of water on both sides of them. Just like science cannot begin to tell you how the sun could stand still in the sky or even to somehow cast a shadow that moved backwards from the normal progression of that shadow. Just as science cannot beging to explain to you how, in one night, all of the firstborn in Egypt died; how a great land could be covered in flies and gnats and the day to be soooo dark in all of Egypt that one couldn't see their hand before their face, but only 5 miles away the sun was shining just pretty regular all across the land of Goshen where the Israelites lived.

No!!!!! Science cannot answer 'how' a miracle came to be. Never have and never will.

Consider that even today, when we believe that God has miraculously healed someone from some sickness or disease or other physical infirmity, the response from the medical field is "we can't explain it, but you're body is healed."

 

[miamited]

Of course. That is what the text says.

Yes, that's all we have to prove any of these things. That is what God's word says.

 

[Free]

Yes, that's all we have to prove any of these things. That is what God's word says.

But, none of that means the earth is young. It also doesn't necessarily mean that those are 24-hr days.

 

[Free]

The part about modern science being able to provide us answers concerning the creation event, is what my emphatic no was for. Science cannot answer the work and cause of a miracle. Just as science can't tell you 'how' Jesus came to be growing in Mary's womb without having ever been with a man. Just like science cannot tell you how a great sea parted and allowed a group of at least several thousand people to walk through that opening on dry ground with a wall of water on both sides of them. Just like science cannot begin to tell you how the sun could stand still in the sky or even to somehow cast a shadow that moved backwards from the normal progression of that shadow. Just as science cannot beging to explain to you how, in one night, all of the firstborn in Egypt died; how a great land could be covered in flies and gnats and the day to be soooo dark in all of Egypt that one couldn't see their hand before their face, but only 5 miles away the sun was shining just pretty regular all across the land of Goshen where the Israelites lived.

No!!!!! Science cannot answer 'how' a miracle came to be. Never have and never will.

Consider that even today, when we believe that God has miraculously healed someone from some sickness or disease or other physical infirmity, the response from the medical field is "we can't explain it, but you're body is healed."

Never mind. You're not understanding the question.

 

[LOOKING]

You seem to be making a fairly clear claim that the supernatural doesn't negate the natural laws. So I asked you, no matter how you believe that the time of the creation event was, what we see described to us in the account that would be a supernatural event and what do you read in the account that is just a natural, by the laws of nature, event. It doesn't matter 'how' you understand the length of time of the creation event.

As you know, in the Bible, it is said that heaven above us is a solid vault that separates the waters above from the waters below.

If you don’t understand that this is a metaphor, like the six days of creation, then you are going to have a serious problem when trying to explain how man got to the moon or why there are galaxies around. As I told you, science does NOT contradict the Bible; it contradicts our deficient understanding of it.

Jesus walking on water is supernatural ONLY according to what we know about nature, not according to what nature really is. Just a century and a half ago, saying that a particle could be in two places at the same time would have been considered magic and nonsense. Now, it is called quantum physics. What we think is supernatural today may be natural tomorrow.

We assume that the natural world is a mechanical process lacking any intelligence, but the Bible, and all religions, tells us that this is not the case. They tell us that we are in a living universe where we must follow certain rules that are clearly stated in the Bible. These rules allow us to exist in harmony with our environment, and this has been understood by every single human group that has survived for a long period of time in this world. From isolated tribes in the middle of the jungle to the Inuit, everybody KNOWS that unless you respect certain laws and live in harmony with your environment, you are not going to go very far. The root of all human problems lies in our ideas about reality and our morals, and this is exactly what the Bible tries to heal.

But because we are SO primitive, we must understand it using metaphors, parables, etc., because we are not mature enough to understand things as they really are. Understanding does NOT only mean intellectual comprehension; it also requires understanding at a deeper level—with the heart—because intellectual understanding is only a PARTIAL grasp of reality (something many scientists fail to see). You can't use reason to make people love each other; you need parables, symbols, and metaphors—tools that help us grasp deeper principles beyond what words can communicate.

We must be OBEDIENT to God because we are ignorant of true reality. We must love each other, do for our neighbor as we would for ourselves, live in harmony with the laws of God, and finally, love God because God is the source of all good. That’s it, period.

 

[Tenchi]

No, it didn't disallow any of the properties of the waves and the winds, but it disallowed the property that water will not hold up anything heavier than itself and the object's displacement of the water around it. I mean, if Jesus' walking on water didn't disallow some natural property of the things of this realm, why can't you just go out and walk on water?

My point in bringing up the instance of Jesus walking on the water was that it demonstrates that a supernatural event can occur simultaneously with the working of natural laws, which shows the two - the supernatural and the natural - aren't mutually-exclusive things. How, exactly, Jesus walked on water is impossible to know but as he stood upon it, the water remained wet, and mobile, and able to engulf Peter, as it would do to you or I.

So, then, what about the Creation of Everything? Can God begin the process of Creation entirely supernaturally, out of nothing but Himself creating time, space, matter and energy and then, having done so, allow the natural laws governing what He has created supernaturally to order and shape the universe? It seems so to me. Particularly because I don't think the supernatural and the natural are antithetical to one another, but just of different orders, the supernatural of a higher, greater order than the natural.

No, my question is merely that. A question. You seem to be making a fairly clear claim that the supernatural doesn't negate the natural laws.

To repeat myself: My claim concerning the event of Creation is that God began supernaturally in bringing the universe into being from nothing but, having done so, used the necessary natural laws of the universe He'd created to work as He'd created them to do.

So I asked you, no matter how you believe that the time of the creation event was, what we see described to us in the account that would be a supernatural event and what do you read in the account that is just a natural, by the laws of nature, event.

Surely, you can see that the accounts of Creation are enormously truncated, giving the sparest of details, fixed primarily upon Creation being an act of a single, supreme Creator-God who made Man in His image and set Man in dominion over the earth. The aim of the accounts isn't to offer a scientific rendering of Creation, but this doesn't mean what science is able to reveal about the Big Bang is therefore utterly invalid. Instead, I see scientific discovery of what God did as complementary to the biblical text, fleshing out the details of what happened at the beginning of the universe that Scripture doesn't provide. So, then, the alternative readings to your own of the Genesis accounts in Lennox's book don't actually do any violence to those accounts, just to your interpretation of them. Again, give the book a read rather than just dismiss its contents out-of-hand.

However, you do seem to be pretty strong in trying to get people to think that when they are asking questions of you, that they are breaking some 'law' of debate or discussion.

No, it's just that very often folk like yourself employ various fallacious forms of argument and reasoning that actually disqualify their arguments and conclusions. Sadly, they just as often have no idea that this is the case, but hold to ideas and perspectives that are actually grossly irrational and unwarranted. Here are the most common fallacious forms of argument I encounter from posters on CF.net:

Strawman
Non sequitur
Equivocation of terms
False dichotomy
Moving the goalposts
Poisoning the well
Ad hominem
Argument from the majority
Argument from authority
Tu quoque
Red herring

When fellow believers are indulging - witting or unwittingly - in these forms of bad argument and reasoning, it seems to me that I ought to let them know; for of all people, Christians ought to be the most careful and precise in their thinking since it is they who handle and communicate the eternal truths of God's word to others.

 

[KV-44-v1]

As you know, in the Bible, it is said that heaven above us is a solid vault that separates the waters above from the waters below.

in Isaiah?
What does "vault" mean in your usage of it?

If you don’t understand that this is a metaphor, like the six days of creation,

Why do you claim the 6 days are a metaphor?? God did not start His Word merely with flowery language. If you want to establish a record of being reliable, do you present yourself as a fanciful storyteller or an accurate witness????

then you are going to have a serious problem when trying to explain how man got to the moon or why there are galaxies around.

?

As I told you, science does NOT contradict the Bible; it contradicts our deficient understanding of it.

Deficient understanding of science, and wrong assumptions about the past based not on the Bible - contradict it.

Jesus walking on water is supernatural ONLY according to what we know about nature, not according to what nature really is. Just a century and a half ago, saying that a particle could be in two places at the same time would have been considered magic and nonsense. Now, it is called quantum physics. What we think is supernatural today may be natural tomorrow.

We assume that the natural world is a mechanical process lacking any intelligence, but the Bible, and all religions, tells us that this is not the case. They tell us that we are in a living universe where we must follow certain rules that are clearly stated in the Bible. These rules allow us to exist in harmony with our environment, and this has been understood by every single human group that has survived for a long period of time in this world. From isolated tribes in the middle of the jungle to the Inuit, everybody KNOWS that unless you respect certain laws and live in harmony with your environment, you are not going to go very far. The root of all human problems lies in our ideas about reality and our morals, and this is exactly what the Bible tries to heal.

But because we are SO primitive, we must understand it using metaphors, parables, etc., because we are not mature enough to understand things as they really are. Understanding does NOT only mean intellectual comprehension; it also requires understanding at a deeper level—with the heart—because intellectual understanding is only a PARTIAL grasp of reality (something many scientists fail to see). You can't use reason to make people love each other; you need parables, symbols, and metaphors—tools that help us grasp deeper principles beyond what words can communicate.

We must be OBEDIENT to God because we are ignorant of true reality. We must love each other, do for our neighbor as we would for ourselves, live in harmony with the laws of God, and finally, love God because God is the source of all good. That’s it, period.

 

[LOOKING]

God did not start His Word merely with flowery language. If you want to establish a record of being reliable, do you present yourself as a fanciful storyteller or an accurate witness????

Genesis 1:6–7 (NIV)
And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.

If the meaning of Genesis is literal, then where are the "waters above"? We must move beyond a simplistic reading of the Bible and adopt a mature and responsible interpretation of these texts. We are no longer children; it is time to grow up.

 

[miamited]

But, none of that means the earth is young. It also doesn't necessarily mean that those are 24-hr days.

Hi Free

Well, yes it does, if we allow that God is writing to us because He loves us and wants us to know the truth of the 'why' and 'how' we, mankind, came to exist. God closes each of the creation days with the claim that there was evening and morning of that day. There is no other definition that fits a day, consisting of one evening and morning, than the planetary rotational day that we still experience today.

And we just don't want to believe that because it just seems so impossible that all that we see didn't exist 7,000 years ago. That just is beyond our comprehension that God commanded to exist an entire universe and all that is in and on the earth in a mere span of time of the first six rotations of the earth. It's impossible for our minds to comprehend that. Then on top of that we've got university learned great scientific minds that are telling you that it just can't be so.

But the clear and plain reading of God's testimony to us, is that He did do it in 6 days. He says so as He's explaining the creation event and then repeats that claim for us twice more in the giving of the law. I believe that God's testimony is the truth. I believe that God knows how we define a day and that He even knew we weren't going to believe it and so had insinuated into the account that each day, every one of them that made up the creation days, God further defined for us that they were numbered and they consisted of the time of one evening and morning.

God has written a testimony to us that is plain and simple... but as with a lot of God's testimony to us, we want to make it difficult and hard to understand, as Paul wrote.

God wrote to us of the days of creation, then explained that on day six of that creation event He created man. Then God quickly gives us two pretty straight forward genealogical accounts to tell us how many years we've existed on the earth today since the day of Adam's creation as the first man to live and breathe upon this earth that God created with merely the command that it exist.

You are worthy our Lord and God to receive all glory, honor and power. You created all things. By your will they were created and have their existence.

That's what God's testimony to us is. As with all the rest of His testimony to us, we have the choice to believe it or not.

 

[miamited]

Never mind. You're not understanding the question.

Right! Well, you could go with that.

 

[Free]

Hi Free

Well, yes it does, if we allow that God is writing to us because He loves us and wants us to know the truth of the 'why' and 'how' we, mankind, came to exist. God closes each of the creation days with the claim that there was evening and morning of that day.

That has nothing to do with whether the earth is old or young or whether Genesis 1 is speaking of 24-hr days. There are at least two ways that even with 24-hour days, the earth can still be old.

There is no other definition that fits a day, consisting of one evening and morning, than the planetary rotational day that we still experience today.

I’ve pointed out the issues with that already, which allow for other legitimate interpretations. You don’t like that and don’t agree, which is fine, but it is true nonetheless.

That's what God's testimony to us is. As with all the rest of His testimony to us, we have the choice to believe it or not.

You seem to forget that every one of us interprets Scripture through our own lenses. So, to say "As with all the rest of His testimony to us, we have the choice to believe it or not," is much too simplistic.

 

[LOOKING]

And we just don't want to believe that because it just seems so impossible that all that we see didn't exist 7,000 years ago.

In Genesis, it is said:

And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.

Can you explain, please, where the waters above are? Unless you are going to tell us that satellites don't exist and stars are merely dots in the vault, this passage from Genesis should be interpreted metaphorically, not literally. It shows us that God is using metaphors in Genesis.

If you persist in a literal interpretation of religious texts without deep understanding, once people start noticing that there is no literal vault and no literal waters above, they may lose faith.

It's time to mature and move beyond simplistic interpretations.

 

[miamited]

It's time to mature and move beyond simplistic interpretations.

Then why do you keep asking such simple minded questions? You haven't ever learned that there are three heavens spoken of in the Scriptures? There is a vault over the earth. You can see it as the atmosphere when you look at the planet from space. What did you think the vault was going to be? Like a casket vault or something?

 

[miamited]

חוּג

Hi LOOKING

Can you read the word I pasted at top? That's the word that Moses would have written. Do you know that word and what it means?

 

[miamited]

Hi LOOKING

And could you tell me where the Scriptures define the vault as solid?

NKJ:
Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."
Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

ASV:
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

 

[LOOKING]

And could you tell me where the Scriptures define the vault as solid?

Assuming the vault is solid is a valid assumption if it literally separates water from water.

You still have not answered what the waters above are.

Certainly, if God speaks literally, there should be an ocean of water above us that does not fall on us thanks to a vault.

But if God speaks metaphorically, there is certainly a vast ocean above us—that of space—which is not made of water but can be metaphorically referred to as an ocean. Comparing our atmosphere to a vault is a valid metaphor. Therefore, there are clear metaphors in Genesis, which, when taken literally, make no sense but, when taken metaphorically, make total sense.

These metaphors helped illiterate people understand things they were not prepared to comprehend. Probably, the six days of creation is one of these metaphors—something we are still unable to fully understand.

 

[miamited]

Assuming the vault is solid is a valid assumption if it literally separates water from water.

yes it's a wonderful thing that we created the great steel dome that keeps the waters separated today that circumnavigates the planet.

You still have not answered what the waters above are.

sorry, I guess I missed your asking. The clouds. They are completely made of condensed water. They are a bit more polluted today, but they're basically all H2O.

Certainly, if God speaks literally, there should be an ocean of water above us that does not fall on us thanks to a vault.

Well, and we see this quite often around my parts. When the waters do gather together they pretty much pour a small lake of water on us that was just recently above our heads. I really don't understand how you believe that a literal interpretation means that there should be an 'ocean' of water above us. Where did you find that volume descriptor in God's testimony to you?

Look you can obfuscate and pretend not to understand this issue of the 'firmament' that separates the water of the seas and oceans and lakes from the waters of the clouds that float along above us. If that's your best argument, then that's what you'll have to go with. As far as answering questions of one another, you haven't responded to my last post concerning the actual Hebrew word that Moses wrote and how that is defined among the Jewish people. But yes, God did separate the waters below from the waters above and created an atmosphere to do that, that He calls a 'vault', 'firmament', 'circle'. If you aren't able to comprehend that, well, then you're going to have lean on your own understanding here.

But God still created all that is in the heavens and on the earth and in the seas and all that is in them in 6 days.