"Except a man be born again...

[herald]

If you read, where I stated, Jesus said, "Not everyone that saith, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

MANY will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, Have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." (lawlessness) Mt 7:21-23.

The Apostle John wrote, "And hereby we do know that we know Him, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. He that saith, I KNOW HIM, and keepeth not His commandments is a LIAR and the Truth is not in him: But whoso keepeth His Word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby we do know that we are in Him." 1 John 2:3-5.

In Psalm 119, the word, "Word," is used interchangeably with, "law," "commandments," "judgments,"
"statutes,""precepts," "testimonies."

HIS WORD IS HIS LAW.

The, only, law that was fulfilled was the Ceremonial law, which was nailed to the cross. Circumcision is now of the heart, washings are baptism, the Sabbath Feast Days were fulfilled. If the Ceremonial law had not been fulfilled, we would, still, sacrifice animals.

CEREMONIAL LAW:

1. Is called, "the law contained in ordinances."Eph 2:15
2. Was spoken by Moses. Deut 31:24-26
3. Was written by Moses in a book. 11 Chron 35:12
4. Was placed in the side of The Ark. Deut 31:24-26
5. Was nailed to the cross. Col 2:14
6. Was abolished by Christ/ Eph 2:15


THE TEN COMMANDMENT COVENANT:

1. Is called, the "royal law"Ja 2:8
2. Was spoken by God. Deut 4:12,13
3. Was written with the finger of God. Ex 31:18
4. Was placed inside The Ark. Ex 40:20;Heb 9:4
5. Is to "stand forever and ever." Ps 111:7,8
6. Was not destroyed by Christ. Mt 5:17,18.

The Holy Spirit uses His Covenant in our on-going process of sanctification.

Even in heaven, the Lord makes quite a statement about His Covenant:

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple The Ark of His Testament: and there were LIGHTNINGS, and VOICES, and THUNDERINGS, and AN EARTHQUAKE, and GREAT HAIL." Rev 11:19.

There was, only, One Covenant in The Ark - The Ten Commandment Covenant.

The Apostle Paul wrote, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Rom 3:31.

The Apostle Paul wrote, "For as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified." Rom 2:12,13.

The Apostle John wrote, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4.

Jesus said, "He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My Words, hath one that judgeth him, the Word that I have spoken the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48.

His Word/His law will judge each one of us on the day of judgement.

 

[Ret]

The Holy Spirit uses His Covenant in our on-going process of sanctification.

Even in heaven, the Lord makes quite a statement about His Covenant:

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple The Ark of His Testament: and there were LIGHTNINGS, and VOICES, and THUNDERINGS, and AN EARTHQUAKE, and GREAT HAIL." Rev 11:19.

There was, only, One Covenant in The Ark - The Ten Commandment Covenant.

In the 'NEW Jerusalem', the city of our God, where the LAMB is.... there is 'NO TEMPLE' therein!

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein:
for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. KJV

The temple of Revelation 11:19 is part of the activity of the 7th angel/trumpet, and then becomes history ....a needful history, given for a purpose...to lead us TO CHRIST! Secondly, all the LIGHTNINGS, and VOICES, and THUNDERINGS, and AN EARTHQUAKE, and GREAT HAIL." ....is more of a picture of Moses and Mt. Sinai, revisited in the 7th angel/trumpet, than the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb being the TEMPLE of the New Jerusalem.

The Apostle Paul wrote, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Rom 3:31.

Yes, Yes, we ESTABLISH THE LAW....for the purpose it was given...to lead us to CHRIST!

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. KJV

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein -

You asked...

OK - so do you think it is possible for man to choose be born?

No, I don't.

But, I do see man being RE-BORN as being entirely elective on his part.

I see the scriptures as teaching of two births and two deaths.

Once we experience our first birth (the physical one) we each are then facing two deaths ahead of us.

One physical, and one spiritual.

Except for those living on the last day, I see the first death (the physical one) as also being guaranteed to each of us who have experienced the first birth.

However, it is those who DO elect to be RE-BORN of water, and thus experience the second birth (the spiritual one) who will then have a chance of avoiding the second death (the spiritual one).

In Christ,

Pogo

Oh I see. So you believe that being born of God is the consequence of choosing to be baptised in water?

 

[herald]

God's Word is His law.

"But be ye DOERS of the Word, and not hearers, only, DECEIVING yourselves." Ja 1:22.

 

[Pogo]

mutzrein -

You asked...

Oh I see. So you believe that being born of God is the consequence of choosing to be baptised in water?

Correct!

And, your own position on man choosing to be born would be...?

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[herald]

Many people are baptized in water, but, they are not born of His Spirit.

Again, in Psalm 119, the word, "Word," is used interchangebly with, "law,"'commandments," "judgments," "precepts," "statutes," "testimonies."

His Word = His law

The, only, law that was fulfilled was the ceremonial law. If it had not been, we would, still, sacrifice animals.

Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15.

Jesus said, "He that hath My commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: AND HE THAT LOVETH ME SHALL BE LOVED OF MY FATHER, AND I WILL LOVE HIM, and will manifest Myself to him. John 14:21.

When Jesus gave us the "Two Greatest Commandments," He was quoting the law. Deut 6:5; Lev 19:18

"Then one of them which was a lawyer, asked Him a question, tempting Him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment IN THE LAW?

Jesus said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with wll thy soul, and with all thy mind. Deut 6:5. This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Lev 19:18. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Mt 22:35-40.

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:2,3.

"And this is love that we walk after His commandments." 2 John 6.

"As far as the east is from the west, so far hath He removed our transgressions ("Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4) from us...TO SUCH AS KEEP HIS COVENANT AND TO THOSE THAT REMEMBER HIS COMMANDMENTS TO DO THEM." Ps 103. (Covenants have conditions - obedience to the Word of God.)

His church keeps His commandments: "And the Dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev 12:17.

His saints keep His commandments: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Rev 14:12.

At the very end of the Scripture, the Apostle John wrote, "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of life, AND MAY ENTER IN through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14.

Covenants have conditions...the condition is obedience to the Word of God.

"But be ye DOERS of the Word, and not hearers, only, DECEIVING yourselves." Ja 1:22.

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein -

You asked...

Oh I see. So you believe that being born of God is the consequence of choosing to be baptised in water?

Correct!

And, your own position on man choosing to be born would be...?

In Christ,

Pogo

My position is that being born of the Spirit of God is not based on human decision. As scripture says, “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God  children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.†You see the latter qualifies the former.

 

[herald]

If you are, truly, born of His Spirit, you will live a life of obedience to the Word of God.

 

[mutzrein]

If you are, truly, born of His Spirit, you will live a life of obedience to the Word of God.

There is much that is written in scripture which I believe many say we should be obedient to. I don't believe that those who are born of the Spirit necessarily OBEY because it is written there, but they FULFIL it because the Spirit of God has written His word on their hearts.

 

[Imagican]

If you are, truly, born of His Spirit, you will live a life of obedience to the Word of God.

There is much that is written in scripture which I believe many say we should be obedient to. I don't believe that those who are born of the Spirit necessarily OBEY because it is written there, but they FULFIL it because the Spirit of God has written His word on their hearts.

Ah, once again, words of wisdom.

For WE are UNABLE to fulfill the burden OUTSIDE of The Spirit.

We are ONLY able to fulfill the LUSTS of the flesh so long as we RELY on the flesh.

It is WHEN we become obedient TO THE SPIRIT that we are ABLE to be transformed into that which we have been promised.

In a nutshell; "It is NOT our POWER that is able to allow us to BECOME obedient. It is THROUGH The Spirit that we are 'transformed' into that which is ABLE to BE obedient. For, without the guidance of and transformation BY The Spirit, we are ONLY able to 'stumble along and HOPE'. And HOPE without much TRUE FAITH in obtainment.

So, I believe that I agree COMPLETELY with Mutz. It's NOT our 'attempts' at following what is WRITTEN, it's ONCE we can submit to The Spirit that these things that are written BECOME manifest in our lives. For NO AMOUNT of 'following the law' is able to bring us an INCH closer to God. We follow what we are commanded NOT for the sake of the commandments, but through a 'circumcision of our HEARTS' that CHANGE what WE would do into that which CONFORMS to the will of God. Not through concious CHOICE, but through a re-awakening of that in which we were created in the IMAGE OF.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Joe67]

It is the wisdom of God that we need all three angel's messages as typified in Revelation 14:6-12.

We are God's workmanship. He is working all things after the counsel of His own will. Ephesians 2:10; 1:11.

The true light is that our deeds have been wrought in God. John 3:21. The light and the dark are the same to our Creator. Psalm 139:12.

Joe

 

[herald]

Again, His Word = His law.

The, only, law that was fulfilled was the Ceremonial law that pointed to the sacrifice of Jesus.

"A new heart also will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you...And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments and do them." Ezek 36:26,27.

When His Spirit is within us, we are empowered by His Spirit to obey His Word/His law.

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that He was manifested TO TAKE AWAY OUR SINS; and in HIm is no sin.

Whosoever abideth in HIm (walks in His Spirit) sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, NEITHER KNOWN HIM (Matt 7:21-23).

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous

He that committeth sin is of the Devil; for the Devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose was the Son of God manifest, that He might destroy the works of the Devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the Devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." 1 John 3.

Again, Jesus said, "Whosoever rejecteth Me and receiveth not My Words, hath one that judgeth him, THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY..." John 12:48.

The Apostle Paul wrote, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: AND AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED IN THE LAW SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED." Rom 2:12,13.

His Word is His law.

His Word/His law will judge each one of us.

"But be ye DOERS of the Word, and not hearers, only, DECEIVING yourselves." Ja 1:22.

 

[Joe67]

Gal 5:12-16

12 I would that they that unsettle you would even go beyond circumcision.

13 For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only (use) not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another.

14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, (even) in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. ASV

Joe

 

[herald]

Again, when Jesus gave us the "Two Greatest Commandments," He was quoting the law. Deut 6:5;Lev 19:18.

"Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked Him a question, tempting Him, and saying.

Master which is the great commandment IN THE LAW?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Deut 6:5

This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Lev 19:18. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt 22:35-40.

Circumcision has to do with the Ceremonial law. Circumcision is now of the heart, washings are baptism, the Sabbath Feast Days were fulfilled:

Passover: Our Passover Lamb
Unleavened Bread: He was without sin
Tabernalcles: He "tabernacled among us."

If the Ceremonial law had not been fullfilled, we would, still sacrifice animals. Please read my post a few pages back on the Ceremonial law/vs The Ten Commandment Covenant.

 

[Pogo]

When the scriptures tell us to 'believe', there are many who interpret it to mean a simple passive mental response.

I, however, see the command to 'believe' as including physical obedience (works).

Most will probably interpret the command to 'believe' in John 3:16, below, the same way that you do.

John 3 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

But, I see the passages of John 8:51and John 14:15, below, as teaching the exact same lesson as John 3:16, just with better explanations of what is required of us when we are to 'believe'.

John 8 KJV
(51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 14 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[herald]

Again, when Moses struck the rock, God charged him with unbelief. Num 20:12. When the children of Israel disobeyed, they were not able to enter The Promised Land, because of unbelief. Heb 3:19. Unbelief comes out of an evil heart. Heb 3:12.

Disobedience = Unbelief
Obedience = Faith

Rom 16:26 refers to "the obedience of faith."
"By faith Abraham...obeyed." Heb 11:8

Again, "Even so faith if it hath not works is dead, being alone.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD?

Was not Abraham our father (Ga 3:7,29) JUSTIFIED BY WORKS when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (In response to the command of God)

SEEST THOU WHO FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, AND BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?

And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith Abraham BELIEVED GOD (faith & works) and it was imputed to him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

YE SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY...For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead, also." James 2.

There is no true faith without obedience to the Word of God.

 

[XTruth]

When the scriptures tell us to 'believe', there are many who interpret it to mean a simple passive mental response.

I, however, see the command to 'believe' as including physical obedience (works).

Most will probably interpret the command to 'believe' in John 3:16, below, the same way that you do.

John 3 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

But, I see the passages of John 8:51and John 14:15, below, as teaching the exact same lesson as John 3:16, just with better explanations of what is required of us when we are to 'believe'.

John 8 KJV
(51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 14 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

In Christ,

Pogo

I agree w/ ya, and if you've had enough caffine, you might enjoy some of what I wrote once about the word "believe" as used in Jn.3:16

The word ‘believeth,’ translated from the Greek word ‘pisteuo,’ is used 245 times throughout the New Testament; found here in this verse and in verses 15, 18, and 36. It’s used in these 245 verses with the meaning of having complete obedience to (Rom.6:11-23), being completely dependant upon (Rom.10:17), trusting wholeheartedly (Eph.1:13; Gal.5:16-26), believing the whole Bible as the same, collected truth (1 Tim.4:1; 2 Tim.3:16-17), being persuaded (2 Tim.1:12), to place confidence in (Heb.3:12-14), used for the definition of faith (Heb.11:1), and turning a 180 degrees to a new way of life. ‘Pisteuo,’ the Greek word for ‘believeth,’ is used in the present tense and denotes action as a process of faith that is to be continued in to receive the full benefits.

The Greek word ‘pisteuo,’ that is interpreted ‘believeth,’ comes from the Greek word ‘pistis,’ meaning one is persuaded of their moral conviction to the point of being completely loyal, unwavering, and unchangeable. The Greek word ‘pistis’ comes from the word ‘peitho,’ meaning one is convinced of the truth or lack of with all assuredness and confidence, by completely yielding and obeying. Stay with me, I’m getting to the point. The Greek language is very specific, having four separate words for love. There are several words for believe. This is important, so follow on.

The Greek word ‘apistia’ is translated ‘unbelief’ (Mk.6:6; Rom.3:3; Heb.3:12). It is used of people who failed to obey the Word. In other words, they may have mentally believed, but disobeyed. The Greek word ‘apeitheia’ is also translated ‘unbelief’ (Rom.1:30, 32; Heb.4:6,11). It also means disobedient to obeying the Word of God. The Greek word ‘apeitheo’ is translated ‘believeth not’ (John 3:36), and ‘believed not’ (Heb.3:18; 11:31).This word means to disobey. The Greek word ‘apisteo’ is translated ‘believed not’ (Rom.3:3; 2 Tim.2:13). It means disbelieve with the implication of disobeying. The Greek word ‘apistos’ is translated ‘unbelievers’ (Lk.12:46), and ‘unbelieving’ (Rev.21:8). It is the only word used of a solid disbelief of God or the acceptance of who Jesus is. No disobedience to the faith is implied since there is no faith to begin with. These people spoken about here are true unbelievers, Atheist.

As proved through this short and easy word study, we can see that believing is both an accepted fact and obeying those beliefs. Believing is a word that expresses action, and actions must be applied or God counts you with the unbelievers. Faith or believing, without action, is dead and worthless (Jas.2:17, 20, 26). All unbelief of God’s Word, whether that from an Atheist or a Christian that disobeys in even one commandment (Jas.2:10), is unreasonable, obstinate, rebellion, prejudiced, presumptuous, insolent, stubborn, self-willed, boastful, insensible, hardening, and deceitful.

 

[herald]

Yes, it was in the Old Testament, that, God charged Moses with unbelief. Num 20:12. And in the Old Testament, that, the children of Israel could not enter The Promised Land, because of unbelief. Heb 3:19. So, when we do not obey God's Word, we are operating out of an evil heart. Heb 3:12. The verse reads, "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." That Scripture makes it very clear, that when we do not obey the Word of God, we have departed from Him.

How can we say, that, we are converted, if we do not obey the Word of God?

 

[Pogo]

XTruth -

Wow! What a great lesson!

Your teaching on 'believe' deserves it's own thread.

I've already clipped your post and saved it to share with my study group!

All of us with no formal Greek training are truly crippled when we are trying to interpret many passages of scripture.

Thanks for the light which you, and others here, are shinning on this issue...as well as many others!

BTW - I see the old Gospel Hymn "Trust and Obey" as teaching the truth about 'believeing' as well!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[Joe67]

Again, when Moses struck the rock, God charged him with unbelief. Num 20:12. When the children of Israel disobeyed, they were not able to enter The Promised Land, because of unbelief. Heb 3:19. Unbelief comes out of an evil heart. Heb 3:12.

herald,

Moses could not enter the promised land, neither Aaron or Miriam, because of their disobedience through unbelief. Moses was resurrected. What about the others? Will they or any of them be resurrected?

John 16:8-9
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; KJV

Why did the disciples break their own vow to follow Jesus to prison and death? Why were they scattered and returned to their former thoughts/house? They had just finished confessing their belief that Jesus had come from God. They were forgiven and restored by the risen Jesus.

Joe