explaining Christian morality to others

[Christ_empowered]

OK. So, I had to see a new shrink. Its a public mental health place...docs come and go. So, my new shrink asked me about the whole gay thing, and I explained that, now that I'm Born Again, its a no-go. He asked about gay friendly churches, and I tried to explain that, for most of the past 1900 years or so, most Christian groups have had nothing good to say about homosexual practice. He asked me where in The Bible homosexuality was forbidden. I mentioned Leviticus, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Paul's writings in the NT, where sodomy was clustered in with other sins of self.

The exchange was a lot friendlier and civil than I'm making it sound. Still, it raises an interesting question: how do you explain your lifestyle to people--especially people in authority--who question you?

 

[Gary]

The exchange was a lot friendlier and civil than I'm making it sound. Still, it raises an interesting question: how do you explain your lifestyle to people--especially people in authority--who question you?

Are you asking about scripture pertaining to homosexuals or just the christian lifestyle in general?
.

 

[Obadiah]

That's always been a tough one for me too, and a lot of times I just don't try. But is your shrink an authority figure? Unless it is an employment situation or you are involuntarily in a mental institution, I would think he is someone there to help you, not have authority over you. If he's not in authority over you, it doesn't really matter what his perception of your morality is and I wouldn't worry about it. You gave your testimony and stood your ground. Good for you. Besides, he's probably just asking as part of his technique of learning your thought processes.

But Christian morality is a very hard thing to explain, even when talking among Christians. I think one of the big reasons for this is that there are so many different opinions on what really is moral and what isn't as a Christian. His mentioning of "gay friendly" churches is a good example. some say homosexuality is forbidden, others say it's not, and I've even heard some say it's ok for women but not for men. The one theme that seems common among all is that each person is convinced that his version of morality is the correct one and everyone that doesn't agree has to be wrong. If us Christians find this hard to understand, can you imagine how the "outside world" sees it?

I think it sounds like you did a great job. You took an uncomfortable situation and turned it into an opportunity to witness! Good job!

 

[jasoncran]

OK. So, I had to see a new shrink. Its a public mental health place...docs come and go. So, my new shrink asked me about the whole gay thing, and I explained that, now that I'm Born Again, its a no-go. He asked about gay friendly churches, and I tried to explain that, for most of the past 1900 years or so, most Christian groups have had nothing good to say about homosexual practice. He asked me where in The Bible homosexuality was forbidden. I mentioned Leviticus, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Paul's writings in the NT, where sodomy was clustered in with other sins of self.

The exchange was a lot friendlier and civil than I'm making it sound. Still, it raises an interesting question: how do you explain your lifestyle to people--especially people in authority--who question you?

just as you did. I would go more into the history of why the torah was given and why Leviticus 18 says that and add the world pedastery and say that is legalized pedophilia.

 

[reba]

Lord, please send our brother CE a christian shrink... We have watched him grow here over a few years. He could use a friendly helping hand in this ol world..

 

[for_his_glory]

I agree with reba. why not seek out a good Christian counselor to talk to as the world can not understand

 

[Isambard]

You may well find a lowly qualified Christian councellor but hopefully no proper psychotherapist will promote or blindly accept any religion. The problem is that part of the psychotherapist's role is dealing with the difference between reality and imagination. A psychotherapist who promotes or encourages religion is automatically on dangerous ground (professionally) as there is no firm evidence for any religion. If they are to remain open minded, a psychologist should treat all unproven religious experiences as imagined experiences rather than fact and simply accept that the client has had that experience - real or imagined. Only if there is a psychological problem related to that experience should it be broken down and 'analysed'. Dogma is based on what - facts, stories, mistakes, imagined experiences? In truth, we simply don't know but in the absence of proof, we can not say that it is based on facts and that should always be borne in mind in the consulting room.

Many psychologists regard religion as a psychogenic illness and believers as subjects of psychological manipulation (indoctrination or worse). If you watch how easily people like Derren Brown can convert people to Christianity in a manner of minutes, without even mentioning God, it makes you realise that we are all potentially prey to mind manipulation - deliberate or otherwise.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Isambard and welcome to CF. I pray you are blest by the forums here. Lots of good people here.

We are suggesting a Christian counselor as Christ_empowered has overcome much since he has accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Sometimes you just need someone to sit and listen instead of psychoanalyzing ever word you speak. When I use to counsel people I would let them talk it all out and then according to what they have said then I would ask them questions why they felt the way they did and then would guide them through the scriptures they needed to stand on as God worked a healing in them. It does make a difference as one doesn't want to be stifled in their conversation, but just need to talk things out.

 

[Isambard]

Hi Isambard and welcome to CF. I pray you are blest by the forums here. Lots of good people here.

We are suggesting a Christian counselor as Christ_empowered has overcome much since he has accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Sometimes you just need someone to sit and listen instead of psychoanalyzing ever word you speak. When I use to counsel people I would let them talk it all out and then according to what they have said then I would ask them questions why they felt the way they did and then would guide them through the scriptures they needed to stand on as God worked a healing in them. It does make a difference as one doesn't want to be stifled in their conversation, but just need to talk things out.

There is, or was, a Psychiatrist called R D Laing, if I remember correctly, who did a long-term study of patients by setting up two groups. One group got all the medication and professional help that psychiatrists normally administer, the other group were sent to talk with mature ladies who had no training at all but were simply asked to listen, be accepting and not to criticise or advise the 'patient'. The success rate, measured in terms of patient improvement, was statistically no different between the two groups - so I agree with you to a very large extent. A good, open minded counsellor can be of great help AND we should sometimes question the treatment given by psychiatrists (doctors).

I have a psychiatrist friend who, some years ago, studied gestalt psychotherapy as well and now virtually never needs to revert to actually being a doctor but he does of course have that in his quiver if the need arises. My one hesitation in totally agreeing with your suggestion is leading someone through scripture who was still, genuinely, psychologically challenged. I'm sure you wouldn't intentionally manipulate anyone but it could be all too easy to influence someone who was already struggling with mental issues. A lack of confidence brought about by mental problems makes a lot of people very suggestible. That, I suggest, is where the extensive training of a psychotherapist (not a psychiatrist) is far more effective than a Christian counsellor or any random mature lady - as in R D Laing's study.

(I'm not calling you a mature lady - but maybe you are:wink)

 

[for_his_glory]

There is, or was, a Psychiatrist called R D Laing, if I remember correctly, who did a long-term study of patients by setting up two groups. One group got all the medication and professional help that psychiatrists normally administer, the other group were sent to talk with mature ladies who had no training at all but were simply asked to listen, be accepting and not to criticise or advise the 'patient'. The success rate, measured in terms of patient improvement, was statistically no different between the two groups - so I agree with you to a very large extent. A good, open minded counsellor can be of great help AND we should sometimes question the treatment given by psychiatrists (doctors).

I have a psychiatrist friend who, some years ago, studied gestalt psychotherapy as well and now virtually never needs to revert to actually being a doctor but he does of course have that in his quiver if the need arises. My one hesitation in totally agreeing with your suggestion is leading someone through scripture who was still, genuinely, psychologically challenged. I'm sure you wouldn't intentionally manipulate anyone but it could be all too easy to influence someone who was already struggling with mental issues. A lack of confidence brought about by mental problems makes a lot of people very suggestible. That, I suggest, is where the extensive training of a psychotherapist (not a psychiatrist) is far more effective than a Christian counsellor or any random mature lady - as in R D Laing's study.

(I'm not calling you a mature lady - but maybe you are:wink)

Being 59 I would hope by now I am mature.............but still like being a Toys R Us kinda kid in me

I would never persuade or manipulate anyone with scripture, but when one is seeking the Lord and his word plus wanting to make a change to serve him then yes it is good to discuss scripture to help build up and edify that person.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I think I could give my shared experience from both being a former christian and from having to explain my current position to people. My best advice is to just plainly state what you believe, or what you find to be the most important aspect of what you believe/ where you stand. That way the conversation can center around what you find most convincing or remarkable. From there you can lay out your reasoning and both of you can learn from the conversation. You can better understand your own reasoning as to why you believe as you do and possibly unearth other reasons as to why you believe as you do.

I think that is what your councilor was trying to do when the concept of you being gay had come up. You could have expressed or shared that your being gay was a problem for you, so the councilor was asking questions to understand the connecting logic. I don't necessarily think the councilor was judging your lifestyle, and no matter what answer you give, there will always be another answer to go even deeper. This isn't about absolute right or wrongs, it about why you specifically believe what you believe.

Mostly because this will help the councilor give suggestions as to where you can go to rectify some subjects that have caused you mental stress or burdens.

 

[Claudya]

OK. So, I had to see a new shrink. Its a public mental health place...docs come and go. So, my new shrink asked me about the whole gay thing, and I explained that, now that I'm Born Again, its a no-go. He asked about gay friendly churches, and I tried to explain that, for most of the past 1900 years or so, most Christian groups have had nothing good to say about homosexual practice. He asked me where in The Bible homosexuality was forbidden. I mentioned Leviticus, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Paul's writings in the NT, where sodomy was clustered in with other sins of self.

The exchange was a lot friendlier and civil than I'm making it sound. Still, it raises an interesting question: how do you explain your lifestyle to people--especially people in authority--who question you?

If I just need them to comply with something I want from them I'd simply find a non-religious way of explaining it. There are "wordly" argumentations for most christian values. By using those instead of christian argumentations I'd avoid a pointless debate and get what I want quicker.

In the case of homosexuality I'd just say the truth, that the Bible condemns homosexuality, but I personally have no negative feelings towards homosexuality or homosexuals. Also I think there are more severe issues in the world than to judge other people's love life.

 

[Obadiah]

I would never persuade or manipulate anyone with scripture..

I'm sure you meant this as to manipulate in a bad way. But lets not forget "...ye should earnestly contend for the faith" (Jude 1:3b). To "contend" is to assert, maintain, hold, claim, argue, insist, state, declare, profess, affirm, and allege. all of which are elements of persuading and manipulating. So I think if you are persuading or manipulating for the glory of God, you shouldn't feel guilty or defensive about it. Even with someone who is vulnerable due to mental illness, why should we feel we shouldn't persuade them that God can help and heal them if they put their lives and their faith in Him? There have been many, many documented incidences of mentally ill people who were "cured" through discovering a faith in God through scripture because someone took the time and had the love to "contend" with them for the things of God. It's true that some (but not all) mental illness is much like physical illness in that it needs medical and/or psychological treatment in addition to faith in God, but faith in God is always a good thing to have and many times God has chosen to heal mental illness all on His own!

 

[Kathi]

I have a wonderful Christian psychologist who I consult and pray with often.We talk about this world.I love to be able to connect with someone who loves the Lord as much as I do and talk about how I feel and the issues today and how they relate to God.It would be pointless to go to someone who is not a Christian.I could get no where with them.

 

[Isambard]

I'm sure you meant this as to manipulate in a bad way. But lets not forget "...ye should earnestly contend for the faith" (Jude 1:3b). To "contend" is to assert, maintain, hold, claim, argue, insist, state, declare, profess, affirm, and allege. all of which are elements of persuading and manipulating. So I think if you are persuading or manipulating for the glory of God, you shouldn't feel guilty or defensive about it. Even with someone who is vulnerable due to mental illness, why should we feel we shouldn't persuade them that God can help and heal them if they put their lives and their faith in Him? There have been many, many documented incidences of mentally ill people who were "cured" through discovering a faith in God through scripture because someone took the time and had the love to "contend" with them for the things of God. It's true that some (but not all) mental illness is much like physical illness in that it needs medical and/or psychological treatment in addition to faith in God, but faith in God is always a good thing to have and many times God has chosen to heal mental illness all on His own!

The underline and bold is my emphasis.

Because you would be asserting your beliefs as fact even though you can not prove any of the facts. The last thing a person with psychological problems needs is even more confusion and uncertainty.

Let us take a simple example. Your next sentence contends that "There have been many, many documented incidences of mentally ill people who were "cured" through discovering a faith in God through scripture because someone took the time and had the love to "contend" with them for the things of God". Your use of the word 'documented' may mean many different things but I am not aware of a single medically documented case of such a cure happening. None. You were specifically talking about people with mental illness (your own words) and you owe it to the 'patient' to be rather more careful with their health. You cannot support your assertion so you really shouldn't make it to someone with a mental illness or even with less severe psychological problems. By all means tell people what you believe but take great care to word it that way to someone who is very likely to be confused and vulnerable or you will become part of their problem rather than part of the cure.

 

[Obadiah]

The underline and bold is my emphasis.

Because you would be asserting your beliefs as fact even though you can not prove any of the facts. The last thing a person with psychological problems needs is even more confusion and uncertainty.

Let us take a simple example. Your next sentence contends that "There have been many, many documented incidences of mentally ill people who were "cured" through discovering a faith in God through scripture because someone took the time and had the love to "contend" with them for the things of God". Your use of the word 'documented' may mean many different things but I am not aware of a single medically documented case of such a cure happening. None. You were specifically talking about people with mental illness (your own words) and you owe it to the 'patient' to be rather more careful with their health. You cannot support your assertion so you really shouldn't make it to someone with a mental illness or even with less severe psychological problems. By all means tell people what you believe but take great care to word it that way to someone who is very likely to be confused and vulnerable or you will become part of their problem rather than part of the cure.

My "belief" IS that God and his power are a FACT. I do not apologize for that nor do I hide it and I don't care that it can't be "proven" through a man made "scientific method". I'm sorry you feel this is wrong, but I do not apologize for it.

Additionally when I said "documented", I did not say "medically documented". That is a false assumption on your part. It is well known that the medical community normally refuses to acknowledge any work of God in their profession so i do not rely on them to justify my beliefs in God.

 

[Kathi]

My "belief" IS that God and his power are a FACT. I do not apologize for that nor do I hide it and I don't care that it can't be "proven" through a man made "scientific method". I'm sorry you feel this is wrong, but I do not apologize for it.

Additionally when I said "documented", I did not say "medically documented". That is a false assumption on your part. It is well known that the medical community normally refuses to acknowledge any work of God in their profession so i do not rely on them to justify my beliefs in God.

You really can not say "the medical community" because there are people in the medical community who are Christian.Some doctors pray with their patients.Not alot but it is done.

 

[Obadiah]

You really can not say "the medical community" because there are people in the medical community who are Christian.Some doctors pray with their patients.Not alot but it is done.

Notice that by your own statement, I CAN say what I actually said. That was "...the medical community normally refuses to acknowledge any work of God." When you say "Some doctors pray with their patients.Not alot but it is done." you confirm that what I said the medical community normally does (or doesn't do) is true.

 

[Kathi]

Notice that by your own statement, I CAN say what I actually said. That was "...the medical community normally refuses to acknowledge any work of God." When you say "Some doctors pray with their patients.Not alot but it is done." you confirm that what I said the medical community normally does (or doesn't do) is true.

Yes,I would say that as a whole the medical community is very worldly.But not 100% of it.

 

[Isambard]

My "belief" IS that God and his power are a FACT. I do not apologize for that nor do I hide it and I don't care that it can't be "proven" through a man made "scientific method". I'm sorry you feel this is wrong, but I do not apologize for it.

Additionally when I said "documented", I did not say "medically documented". That is a false assumption on your part. It is well known that the medical community normally refuses to acknowledge any work of God in their profession so i do not rely on them to justify my beliefs in God.

I pray you consider the health of the person before following your own layman's opinion about how to 'help' them. Please don't tell a mentally ill person anything about religion unless they ask. Even then don't over-state what is belief and what is fact. They are likely to be confused and stressed enough already and you may do more harm that you can possibly imagine. I really do suggest you study the religious conversions done by Derren Brown so that you can see just how easy it is to manipulate someone. It is frighteningly easy.

By all means listen, empathise and comfort but don't lead. Leave that to the professionals - please. Even they will be very hesitant to tell someone what to do.

On your second point, I would be very interested to know where I can find the, 'many, many documented incidences of mentally ill people who were "cured" through discovering a faith in God'?Or did you actually mean that you have heard a couple of anecdotes? That is hardly the same thing as a 'documented instance'. We also need to be very wary about accepting the veracity of unsubstantiated Blogs. They are often full of complete rubbish.