T
TruthMiner
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gingercat said:
What you don't seem to understand is that the Bible IS an image of Jesus.
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What you don't seem to understand is that the Bible IS an image of Jesus.
.
What are you guys trying to pull here? :smt018
Just because some people are reaping the harvest of "some" of the Good things in life, doesn't mean they truly know God. Some people are blind to the truth of God and just happen to benefit because they are in line with the absolute laws of God, but it doesn't mean they KNOW God. Even the rich man can miss entering through the gates of heaven!
Like I wrote in an earlier post.
These people who think we don't need the bible are not of the Judeo Christian belief.
They must be gnostics or some form of a belief system that undermines Christ Jesus. Gnostics and others who think there is no need for the written word have a knack for perverting "Christ"-ianity.
JESUS QUOTED MUCH OF SCRIPTURE FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT WRITINGS.
Even Paul wrote in the book of Colossians:
Colossians 3:16
And by the way mutzrein, Jesus spent time in the synagog learning and then later in his life teaching scripture. Jesus studied and taught the Old Testament writings.
You forget, Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. Flesh has to be taught and disciplined .
Even Jesus was tempted by the devil in the garden of Gethsemane...But he was/is our perfect example of how to overcome. He was/is our living example of; Holy Spirit manifest in the flesh.
Even Jesus knew the FLESH must be taught and schooled. The old testament books are what Jesus studied and meditated on.
Do you even realize how many times Jesus quoted the Old Testament writings and how many times the old testament writings are referenced in the New Testament books?
A search done for just the word written brings up 127 results in the New Testament alone. And that search doesn't include other scriptures that were quoted by Jesus and the Apostles of which didn't include the word written in them.
Now shall I post all of the 127 verses or do you want to look them up for yourselves?
:roll: http://studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=written+§ion=2&translation=kjv&oq=written%20&new=1&sr=1
.
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What are you guys trying to pull here? :smt018
Just because some people are reaping the harvest of "some" of the Good things in life, doesn't mean they truly know God. Some people are blind to the truth of God and just happen to benefit because they are in line with the absolute laws of God, but it doesn't mean they KNOW God. Even the rich man can miss entering through the gates of heaven!
Like I wrote in an earlier post.
These people who think we don't need the bible are not of the Judeo Christian belief.
They must be gnostics or some form of a belief system that undermines Christ Jesus. Gnostics and others who think there is no need for the written word have a knack for perverting "Christ"-ianity.
JESUS QUOTED MUCH OF SCRIPTURE FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT WRITINGS.
Even Paul wrote in the book of Colossians:
Colossians 3:16
- Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord
- .
And by the way mutzrein, Jesus spent time in the synagog learning and then later in his life teaching scripture. Jesus studied and taught the Old Testament writings.
- Luke 2:41-52
39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. 43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. 44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. 45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. 47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. 48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. 51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
You forget, Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. Flesh has to be taught and disciplined .
Even Jesus was tempted by the devil in the garden of Gethsemane...But he was/is our perfect example of how to overcome. He was/is our living example of; Holy Spirit manifest in the flesh.
Even Jesus knew the FLESH must be taught and schooled. The old testament books are what Jesus studied and meditated on.
- Proverbs 22:17-21
17 Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge. 18 For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee; they shall withal be fitted in thy lips. 19 That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee. 20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, 21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?
Do you even realize how many times Jesus quoted the Old Testament writings and how many times the old testament writings are referenced in the New Testament books?
A search done for just the word written brings up 127 results in the New Testament alone. And that search doesn't include other scriptures that were quoted by Jesus and the Apostles of which didn't include the word written in them.
Now shall I post all of the 127 verses or do you want to look them up for yourselves?
:roll: http://studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=written+§ion=2&translation=kjv&oq=written%20&new=1&sr=1
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T
TruthMiner
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- Thread starter
- #23
gingercat said:I know what you are up to. I had an argument with a guy like you before. He insists on saying you don't need the Bible, all you need is Jesus. And He was also saying that we don't have to obey Jesus' commandments and teachings either. Did I identify you correctly? Or you are going to ignore this simple question?
You will need a Bible if you don't know how to follow Jesus in the Spirit.
This is not an antithesis between the Bible and something else. The Bible has its place but its place is not in the place of Jesus. The way you speak it almost sounds like the Bible IS your Jesus.
It does seem that you prefer to follow an image of Jesus you got from the Bible. Why wouldn't you rather wish to follow the real person?
If Jesus were here in your house today just like he was there with the 12 disciples, would you run off into a corner and say to Jesus, "I have to spend some time reading my Bible to get to know you and then leave Jesus behind?" Would that make any sense?
T
TruthMiner
Guest
- Thread starter
- #24
Relic said:.
What are you guys trying to pull here? :smt018
Just because some people are reaping the harvest of "some" of the Good things in life, doesn't mean they truly know God.
Who cares? thats not what we are talking about.
Some people are blind to the truth of God and just happen to benefit because they are in line with the absolute laws of God, but it doesn't mean they KNOW God. Even the rich man can miss entering through the gates of heaven!
Like I wrote in an earlier post.
These people who think we don't need the bible are not of the Judeo Christian belief.
They must be gnostics or some form of a belief system that undermines Christ Jesus. Gnostics and others who think there is no need for the written word have a knack for perverting "Christ"-ianity.
Actually it was the Gnostics who has the idea that we are saved by knowing intellectual things. Perhaps you have not noticed but this is what you are pointing to.
JESUS QUOTED MUCH OF SCRIPTURE FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT WRITINGS.
Even Paul wrote in the book of Colossians:
Colossians 3:16
- Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord
- .
We cannot communicate with each other in the Spirit. This is beside the point. I somehow don't think you are getting the point here... or don't want to... who can be sure?
And by the way mutzrein, Jesus spent time in the synagog learning and then later in his life teaching scripture. Jesus studied and taught the Old Testament writings.
He was a Jew who taught Jews. How does he teach you now?
- Luke 2:41-52
39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Yes that's what Jews were supposed to do. We are Christians and not under the Law, not of the letter, but of the Spirit.
41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. 43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. 44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. 45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. 47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. 48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. 51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
You forget, Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. Flesh has to be taught and disciplined .
Even Jesus was tempted by the devil in the garden of Gethsemane...But he was/is our perfect example of how to overcome. He was/is our living example of; Holy Spirit manifest in the flesh.
Even Jesus knew the FLESH must be taught and schooled. The old testament books are what Jesus studied and meditated on.
- Proverbs 22:17-21
17 Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge. 18 For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee; they shall withal be fitted in thy lips. 19 That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee. 20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, 21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?
Do you even realize how many times Jesus quoted the Old Testament writings and how many times the old testament writings are referenced in the New Testament books?
A search done for just the word written brings up 127 results in the New Testament alone. And that search doesn't include other scriptures that were quoted by Jesus and the Apostles of which didn't include the word written in them.
Now shall I post all of the 127 verses or do you want to look them up for yourselves?
:roll: http://studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=written+§ion=2&translation=kjv&oq=written%20&new=1&sr=1
.
.
You are way out in left field here.
Which Old Testament text did Jesus prefer and quote from?
Introduction:
1. Jesus quoted from 24 different Old Testament books.
2. The New Testament as a whole quotes from 34 books of the Old Testament Books. These 5 books are never quoted in the New Testament: Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon.
3. It is not significant that these books: Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, were never quoted in the New Testament, because they were part of "collections" of Old Testament books. Since other books within the same collection were quoted, this shows them too to be inspired.
4. The New Testament never quotes from the any of the apocryphal books written between 400 - 200 BC. What is significant here is that NONE of the books within the "apocryphal collection" are every quoted. So the Catholic argument that "the apocryphal books cannot be rejected as uninspired on the basis that they are never quoted from in the New Testament because Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon are also never quoted in the New Testament, and we all accept them as inspired." The rebuttal to this Catholic argument is that "Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther" were always included in the "history collection" of Jewish books and "Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon" were always included in the "poetry collection". By quoting one book from the collection, it verifies the entire collection. None of the apocryphal books were ever quoted in the New Testament. Not even once! This proves the Catholic and Orthodox apologists wrong when they try to defend the apocrypha in the Bible.
A. What books were in each of the three collections:
1. The Law (Torah) - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy
2. The Prophets (Neviim) - Joshua, Judges, 1 & 2 Samuel (one volume), 1 & 2 Kings (one volume), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, the 12 Minor Prophets (one volume)
3. The Writings (Kethubim) - Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Ruth, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Esther, Daniel, Ezra and Nehemiah (one volume), 1 & 2 Chronicles (one volume)
B. Jesus and the Old Testament:
1. Jesus, like all the Jews of the first century, divided the Old Testament into three "collections": the law, the prophets, the psalms. Jesus said: "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." (Luke 24:44)
2. Sometimes the sum of the Old Testament was referred to as two collections: the law and the prophets. Intestingly, Jesus referred to Psalm 82:6 as "Law": "Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?" John 10:34. This may explain why most of the time there were two collections referred to as a sum for the whole.
* "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17
* "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. Matthew 11:13
* "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. Luke 16:16
* Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wroteâ€â€Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." John 1:45
* After the reading of the Law and the Prophets the synagogue officials sent to them, saying, "Brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it." Acts 13:15
* "But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets; Acts 24:14
C. An essay by Craig A. Evans:
Lee Martin McDonald, James A. Sanders, Editors: The Canon Debate; Craig A. Evans, The Scriptures of Jesus and His Earliest Followers, p 191-194, 2002
Did Jesus Recognize a Specific Text of Scripture?
Did Jesus recognize a specific text form of scripture? It does not appear so, for his usage of scripture is allusive, paraphrastic, and-so far as it can be ascertained-eclectic. We find agreement with the proto-Masoretic text, with the Hebrew under-lying the Septuagint (perhaps even the Septuagint itself), and with the Aramaic para-phrase. Several examples from each category will illustrate the phenomena. The examples that are chosen are the most obvious, in that they stand over against the readings in the other versions.
A. Agreements with the Proto-Masoretic Text
Some of Jesus' quotations and allusions to scripture agree with the proto-Masoretic text against the Septuagint. In the parable of the Growing Seed (Mark 4:26-29) Jesus alludes to Joel 4:13 (ET 3:13): "he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come." Mark's therismos ("harvest") renders literally the Hebrew gsyr, unlike the Septuagint's trygetos ("vintage"). In Matt 11:29 Jesus bids his hearers to take his yoke upon them: "and you will find rest [anapausin] for your souls." The saying alludes to Jer 6:16 in the Hebrew, where the Lord speaks through his prophet: "walk in (the good way), and find rest (nirgw`] for your souls"; and not to the Septuagint, which renders the passage: "and you will find purification [hagnismon] for your souls." In Mark 13:8 Jesus warns his disciples that in the tribulation that lies ahead "nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom." He alludes to Isa 19:2 in the Hebrew, which in part reads: "city against city, kingdom against kingdom"; the Septuagint, in contrast, reads: "city against city, province against province." In Luke 16:15 Jesus asserts that "what is exalted among humans is an abomination [bdelygrna] in the sight of God." This alludes to Prov 16:5 in the Hebrew, where the wise man claims: "Every one who is arrogant is an abomination [tw'bh] to the LORD"; not to the Septuagint: "Every arrogant person is unclean [akathartos] before God." Finally, In the words of institution, Jesus speaks of his blood, "which is poured out [ekchynnomenon] for many" (Mark 14:24), which alludes to Isa 53:12 in the Hebrew: "he poured out [h'rh] his soul to death"; not in the Septuagint: "his soul was given over (paredothe] to death."
B. Agreements with the Septuagint
Jesus' scripture quotations and allusions sometime agree with the Septuagint against the proto-Masoretic Hebrew. Jesus' quotation of Isa 29:13 is quite septuagintal, both in form and meaning (cf. Mark 7:6-7). The identification of John the Baptist as Elijah who "restores" (apokathistanei) all things (Mark 9:12) seems dependent on the Septuagint form (apokatastesei), or at least a Septuagintal form of Hebrew, not the proto-Masoretic Hebrew, which reads hshyb ("return" or "turn back"). Curiously, both of these elements are found in Sir 48:10, in which the returning Elijah is expected "to turn [Septuagint: epistrepsai; Hebrew: lush},b] the heart of the father to the son, and to restore [Septuagint: katastesai; Hebrew: lhkyn] the tribes of Jacob." Both elements may well have been present in the original Hebrew version of Sirach.22 The quotation of Ps 8:3 (ET 8:2) in Matt 21:16 follows the Septuagint. But this may be the work of the evangelist. Finally, the highly important allusions to phrases from Isa 35:5-6; 26:19; and 61:1 in Matt 11:5 = Luke 7:22 agree in places with the Septuagint. Of course, agreements with the Septuagint no longer require us to think that Jesus read or quoted the Septuagint .23 Thanks to the Bible scrolls of the Dead Sea region, we now know that there were Hebrew Vorlagen underlying much of the Greek Old Testament. Indeed, there are examples where Jesus' quotations of and allu-sions to scripture agree with some Greek versions against others. Jesus' use of the Bible attests the diversity of the textual tradition that now, thanks to the Scrolls, is more fully documented.
C. Agreements with the Aramaic
There are also several important examples of agreement with the Aramaic tradition, which arose in the synagogue and eventually assumed written form as the Targum. These examples will be treated in more detail.
There are significant examples in which Jesus' language agrees with the Aramaic tradition. The paraphrase of Isa 6:9-10 in Mark 4:12 concludes with " . . . and it be forgiven them." Only the Isaiah Targum reads this way.zb The Hebrew and the Septuagint read "heal." The criterion of dissimilarity argues for the authenticity of this strange saying, for the tendencies in both Jewish-'' and Christian 21 circles were to understand this Isaianic pas-sage in a way significantly different from the way it appears to be understood in the Markan tradition. The saying, "All those grasping a sword by a sword will perish" (Matt 26:52), has dictional agreement with Targum Isaiah 50:11: "Behold, all you who kindle a fire, who grasp a sword! Go, fall in the fire which you kindled and on the sword which you grasped!" The items that the targum has added to the Hebrew text are the very items that lie behind Jesus' statement. Jesus' saying on Gehenna (Mark 9:47-48), where he quotes part of Isa 66:24, again reflects targumic diction. The Hebrew and the Septuagint say nothing about Gehenna, but the targum has: " . . . will not die and their fire shall not be quenched, and the wicked shall be judged in Gehenna. . . ." The verse is alluded to twice in the Apocrypha (Jdt 16:17; Sir 7:17), where, in contrast to Hebrew Isaiah, it seems to be looking beyond temporal punishment toward eschatological judgment. But the implicit association of Gehenna with Isa 66:24 is distinctly targumic. And, of course, the targumic paraphrase is explicitly eschatological, as is Jesus' saying. The distinctive reading found in Targwn Pseudo-Jonathan Lev 22:28, "My people, children of Israel, as our Father is merciful in heaven, so shall you be merciful on earth," lies behind Jesus' statement in Luke 6:36: "Become merciful just as your Father is merciful." While it is unlikely that Jesus has quoted the Targum,21 and even less plausible that the Targum has quoted him '30 the parallel demands explanation. Most probably the Targum and Jesus both repeat a saying that circulated in first-century Palestine (cf. y Ber. 5:3; y. Meg. 4:9).
There are other instances of thematic and exegetical coherence between Jesus' use of scripture and the Aramaic tradition. The parable of the Wicked Vineyard Tenants (Mark 12:1-12 par.) is based on Isaiah's Song of the Vineyard (Isa 5:l-7), as the dozen or so words in the opening lines of the Markan parable demonstrate. But Isaiah's parable was directed against the "house of Israel" and the "men of Judah" (cf. Isa 5:7). In contrast, Jesus' parable is directed against the "ruling priests, scribes, and elders" (cf. Mark 11:27), who evidently readily perceived that the parable had been told "against them" and not against the general populace (cf. Mark 12:12). Why was this parable so understood, when it is obviously based on a prophetic parable that spoke to the nation as a whole? The answer is found once again in the Isaiah Targum, which in place of "tower" and "wine vat" reads "sanctuary" and "altar" (cf. Isa 5:2 and Tg. Isa 5:2),3' institutions which will be destroyed (cf. Isa 5:5 and Tg. Isa 5:5). The Isaiah Targum has significantly shifted the thrust of the prophetic indictment against the priestly establishment. Jesus' parable seems to reflect this orientation: the prob-lem does not lie with the vineyard; it lies with the caretakers of the vineyard. A few of these components appear outside of the New Testament and the Isaiah Targum. In 1 Eiioch 89:66-67 the temple is referred to as a "tower." Its first destruction is referred to, but with-out any apparent allusion to Isa 5. This Enochic tradition appears in Barnabas 16:l-5, where it is applied to the second destruction, but without reference to either Isa 5 or Mark 12. Thus the coherence between Targum Isaiah 5 and Mark 12 is distinctive, and probably cannot be explained away as coincidence. 4Q500, which dates to the first century B.C.E., alludes to Isaiah's parable of the Vineyard and applies it to the Temple, demonstrating the antiquity of the exegetical orientation presupposed later in Jesus and later still in the Targum.
Even the problematic quotation of Ps 118:22-23 may receive some clarification from the targum. Klyne Snodgrass has argued plausibly that its presence is due to a play on words between "the stone" (h'bn) and "the son" (hbn), which probably explains the read-ing in Targiini Ps 118:22: "The son which the builders rejected. . . ."3' This kind of word play is old and is witnessed in the New Testament (cf. Matt 3:9 par.: "from these stones God is able to raise up children [which in Aramaic originally could have been "sons"] to Abraham"; cf. Luke 19:40) and in Josephus (B.J. 5.6.3 §272). The quotation was assimi-lated to the better known Greek version, since it was used by Christians for apologetic and christological purposes (cf. Acts 4:11; 1 Pet 2:4, 7), and possibly because second generation Christians were unaware of the original Aramaic word play.
Perhaps most important of all is Jesus' proclamation of the kingdom of God: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has drawn near; repent, and believe in the good news" (Mark 1:15). Jesus' "good news" (etiangelion) harks back to the "good news" (bgr) of Isaiah, but not in the Hebrew: "O Zion, you that bring good news ... say, `Behold, your God"' (40:9); or "who proclaims good news of good ... who says to Zion, `Your God reigns"' (52:7); rather, in the Aramaic: "prophets who proclaim good news to Zion ... say, `The kingdom of your God is revealed"' (Tg. Isa. 40:9); or "who proclaims good news ... who says to ... Zion, `The kingdom of your God is revealed"' (Tg. Isa. 52:7).
(Lee Martin McDonald, James A. Sanders, Editors: The Canon Debate; Craig A. Evans, The Scriptures of Jesus and His Earliest Followers, p 191-194, 2002)
By Steve Rudd
http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-jesus-favored-old-testament-textual-manuscript.htm
.
Introduction:
1. Jesus quoted from 24 different Old Testament books.
2. The New Testament as a whole quotes from 34 books of the Old Testament Books. These 5 books are never quoted in the New Testament: Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon.
3. It is not significant that these books: Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, were never quoted in the New Testament, because they were part of "collections" of Old Testament books. Since other books within the same collection were quoted, this shows them too to be inspired.
4. The New Testament never quotes from the any of the apocryphal books written between 400 - 200 BC. What is significant here is that NONE of the books within the "apocryphal collection" are every quoted. So the Catholic argument that "the apocryphal books cannot be rejected as uninspired on the basis that they are never quoted from in the New Testament because Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon are also never quoted in the New Testament, and we all accept them as inspired." The rebuttal to this Catholic argument is that "Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther" were always included in the "history collection" of Jewish books and "Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon" were always included in the "poetry collection". By quoting one book from the collection, it verifies the entire collection. None of the apocryphal books were ever quoted in the New Testament. Not even once! This proves the Catholic and Orthodox apologists wrong when they try to defend the apocrypha in the Bible.
A. What books were in each of the three collections:
1. The Law (Torah) - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy
2. The Prophets (Neviim) - Joshua, Judges, 1 & 2 Samuel (one volume), 1 & 2 Kings (one volume), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, the 12 Minor Prophets (one volume)
3. The Writings (Kethubim) - Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Ruth, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Esther, Daniel, Ezra and Nehemiah (one volume), 1 & 2 Chronicles (one volume)
B. Jesus and the Old Testament:
1. Jesus, like all the Jews of the first century, divided the Old Testament into three "collections": the law, the prophets, the psalms. Jesus said: "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." (Luke 24:44)
2. Sometimes the sum of the Old Testament was referred to as two collections: the law and the prophets. Intestingly, Jesus referred to Psalm 82:6 as "Law": "Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?" John 10:34. This may explain why most of the time there were two collections referred to as a sum for the whole.
* "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17
* "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. Matthew 11:13
* "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. Luke 16:16
* Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wroteâ€â€Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." John 1:45
* After the reading of the Law and the Prophets the synagogue officials sent to them, saying, "Brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it." Acts 13:15
* "But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets; Acts 24:14
C. An essay by Craig A. Evans:
Lee Martin McDonald, James A. Sanders, Editors: The Canon Debate; Craig A. Evans, The Scriptures of Jesus and His Earliest Followers, p 191-194, 2002
Did Jesus Recognize a Specific Text of Scripture?
Did Jesus recognize a specific text form of scripture? It does not appear so, for his usage of scripture is allusive, paraphrastic, and-so far as it can be ascertained-eclectic. We find agreement with the proto-Masoretic text, with the Hebrew under-lying the Septuagint (perhaps even the Septuagint itself), and with the Aramaic para-phrase. Several examples from each category will illustrate the phenomena. The examples that are chosen are the most obvious, in that they stand over against the readings in the other versions.
A. Agreements with the Proto-Masoretic Text
Some of Jesus' quotations and allusions to scripture agree with the proto-Masoretic text against the Septuagint. In the parable of the Growing Seed (Mark 4:26-29) Jesus alludes to Joel 4:13 (ET 3:13): "he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come." Mark's therismos ("harvest") renders literally the Hebrew gsyr, unlike the Septuagint's trygetos ("vintage"). In Matt 11:29 Jesus bids his hearers to take his yoke upon them: "and you will find rest [anapausin] for your souls." The saying alludes to Jer 6:16 in the Hebrew, where the Lord speaks through his prophet: "walk in (the good way), and find rest (nirgw`] for your souls"; and not to the Septuagint, which renders the passage: "and you will find purification [hagnismon] for your souls." In Mark 13:8 Jesus warns his disciples that in the tribulation that lies ahead "nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom." He alludes to Isa 19:2 in the Hebrew, which in part reads: "city against city, kingdom against kingdom"; the Septuagint, in contrast, reads: "city against city, province against province." In Luke 16:15 Jesus asserts that "what is exalted among humans is an abomination [bdelygrna] in the sight of God." This alludes to Prov 16:5 in the Hebrew, where the wise man claims: "Every one who is arrogant is an abomination [tw'bh] to the LORD"; not to the Septuagint: "Every arrogant person is unclean [akathartos] before God." Finally, In the words of institution, Jesus speaks of his blood, "which is poured out [ekchynnomenon] for many" (Mark 14:24), which alludes to Isa 53:12 in the Hebrew: "he poured out [h'rh] his soul to death"; not in the Septuagint: "his soul was given over (paredothe] to death."
B. Agreements with the Septuagint
Jesus' scripture quotations and allusions sometime agree with the Septuagint against the proto-Masoretic Hebrew. Jesus' quotation of Isa 29:13 is quite septuagintal, both in form and meaning (cf. Mark 7:6-7). The identification of John the Baptist as Elijah who "restores" (apokathistanei) all things (Mark 9:12) seems dependent on the Septuagint form (apokatastesei), or at least a Septuagintal form of Hebrew, not the proto-Masoretic Hebrew, which reads hshyb ("return" or "turn back"). Curiously, both of these elements are found in Sir 48:10, in which the returning Elijah is expected "to turn [Septuagint: epistrepsai; Hebrew: lush},b] the heart of the father to the son, and to restore [Septuagint: katastesai; Hebrew: lhkyn] the tribes of Jacob." Both elements may well have been present in the original Hebrew version of Sirach.22 The quotation of Ps 8:3 (ET 8:2) in Matt 21:16 follows the Septuagint. But this may be the work of the evangelist. Finally, the highly important allusions to phrases from Isa 35:5-6; 26:19; and 61:1 in Matt 11:5 = Luke 7:22 agree in places with the Septuagint. Of course, agreements with the Septuagint no longer require us to think that Jesus read or quoted the Septuagint .23 Thanks to the Bible scrolls of the Dead Sea region, we now know that there were Hebrew Vorlagen underlying much of the Greek Old Testament. Indeed, there are examples where Jesus' quotations of and allu-sions to scripture agree with some Greek versions against others. Jesus' use of the Bible attests the diversity of the textual tradition that now, thanks to the Scrolls, is more fully documented.
C. Agreements with the Aramaic
There are also several important examples of agreement with the Aramaic tradition, which arose in the synagogue and eventually assumed written form as the Targum. These examples will be treated in more detail.
There are significant examples in which Jesus' language agrees with the Aramaic tradition. The paraphrase of Isa 6:9-10 in Mark 4:12 concludes with " . . . and it be forgiven them." Only the Isaiah Targum reads this way.zb The Hebrew and the Septuagint read "heal." The criterion of dissimilarity argues for the authenticity of this strange saying, for the tendencies in both Jewish-'' and Christian 21 circles were to understand this Isaianic pas-sage in a way significantly different from the way it appears to be understood in the Markan tradition. The saying, "All those grasping a sword by a sword will perish" (Matt 26:52), has dictional agreement with Targum Isaiah 50:11: "Behold, all you who kindle a fire, who grasp a sword! Go, fall in the fire which you kindled and on the sword which you grasped!" The items that the targum has added to the Hebrew text are the very items that lie behind Jesus' statement. Jesus' saying on Gehenna (Mark 9:47-48), where he quotes part of Isa 66:24, again reflects targumic diction. The Hebrew and the Septuagint say nothing about Gehenna, but the targum has: " . . . will not die and their fire shall not be quenched, and the wicked shall be judged in Gehenna. . . ." The verse is alluded to twice in the Apocrypha (Jdt 16:17; Sir 7:17), where, in contrast to Hebrew Isaiah, it seems to be looking beyond temporal punishment toward eschatological judgment. But the implicit association of Gehenna with Isa 66:24 is distinctly targumic. And, of course, the targumic paraphrase is explicitly eschatological, as is Jesus' saying. The distinctive reading found in Targwn Pseudo-Jonathan Lev 22:28, "My people, children of Israel, as our Father is merciful in heaven, so shall you be merciful on earth," lies behind Jesus' statement in Luke 6:36: "Become merciful just as your Father is merciful." While it is unlikely that Jesus has quoted the Targum,21 and even less plausible that the Targum has quoted him '30 the parallel demands explanation. Most probably the Targum and Jesus both repeat a saying that circulated in first-century Palestine (cf. y Ber. 5:3; y. Meg. 4:9).
There are other instances of thematic and exegetical coherence between Jesus' use of scripture and the Aramaic tradition. The parable of the Wicked Vineyard Tenants (Mark 12:1-12 par.) is based on Isaiah's Song of the Vineyard (Isa 5:l-7), as the dozen or so words in the opening lines of the Markan parable demonstrate. But Isaiah's parable was directed against the "house of Israel" and the "men of Judah" (cf. Isa 5:7). In contrast, Jesus' parable is directed against the "ruling priests, scribes, and elders" (cf. Mark 11:27), who evidently readily perceived that the parable had been told "against them" and not against the general populace (cf. Mark 12:12). Why was this parable so understood, when it is obviously based on a prophetic parable that spoke to the nation as a whole? The answer is found once again in the Isaiah Targum, which in place of "tower" and "wine vat" reads "sanctuary" and "altar" (cf. Isa 5:2 and Tg. Isa 5:2),3' institutions which will be destroyed (cf. Isa 5:5 and Tg. Isa 5:5). The Isaiah Targum has significantly shifted the thrust of the prophetic indictment against the priestly establishment. Jesus' parable seems to reflect this orientation: the prob-lem does not lie with the vineyard; it lies with the caretakers of the vineyard. A few of these components appear outside of the New Testament and the Isaiah Targum. In 1 Eiioch 89:66-67 the temple is referred to as a "tower." Its first destruction is referred to, but with-out any apparent allusion to Isa 5. This Enochic tradition appears in Barnabas 16:l-5, where it is applied to the second destruction, but without reference to either Isa 5 or Mark 12. Thus the coherence between Targum Isaiah 5 and Mark 12 is distinctive, and probably cannot be explained away as coincidence. 4Q500, which dates to the first century B.C.E., alludes to Isaiah's parable of the Vineyard and applies it to the Temple, demonstrating the antiquity of the exegetical orientation presupposed later in Jesus and later still in the Targum.
Even the problematic quotation of Ps 118:22-23 may receive some clarification from the targum. Klyne Snodgrass has argued plausibly that its presence is due to a play on words between "the stone" (h'bn) and "the son" (hbn), which probably explains the read-ing in Targiini Ps 118:22: "The son which the builders rejected. . . ."3' This kind of word play is old and is witnessed in the New Testament (cf. Matt 3:9 par.: "from these stones God is able to raise up children [which in Aramaic originally could have been "sons"] to Abraham"; cf. Luke 19:40) and in Josephus (B.J. 5.6.3 §272). The quotation was assimi-lated to the better known Greek version, since it was used by Christians for apologetic and christological purposes (cf. Acts 4:11; 1 Pet 2:4, 7), and possibly because second generation Christians were unaware of the original Aramaic word play.
Perhaps most important of all is Jesus' proclamation of the kingdom of God: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has drawn near; repent, and believe in the good news" (Mark 1:15). Jesus' "good news" (etiangelion) harks back to the "good news" (bgr) of Isaiah, but not in the Hebrew: "O Zion, you that bring good news ... say, `Behold, your God"' (40:9); or "who proclaims good news of good ... who says to Zion, `Your God reigns"' (52:7); rather, in the Aramaic: "prophets who proclaim good news to Zion ... say, `The kingdom of your God is revealed"' (Tg. Isa. 40:9); or "who proclaims good news ... who says to ... Zion, `The kingdom of your God is revealed"' (Tg. Isa. 52:7).
(Lee Martin McDonald, James A. Sanders, Editors: The Canon Debate; Craig A. Evans, The Scriptures of Jesus and His Earliest Followers, p 191-194, 2002)
By Steve Rudd
http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-jesus-favored-old-testament-textual-manuscript.htm
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An outline on Jesus using the Old Testament Scriptures in his ministry:
HOW WE KNOW THAT JESUS READ
AND KNEW THE BIBLE
A Sermon Prepared by Dr. Neil Chadwick
I. JESUS DISCUSSED THE SCRIPTURE WHEN HE WAS IN THE TEMPLE DURING THE VISIT WITH HIS PARENTS AT AGE 12
Luke 2:46
46And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
II. JESUS QUOTED FROM THE SCRIPTURE WHEN HE WAS TEMPTED BY SATAN IN THE WILDERNESS
"Turn Stone to Bread": Deuteronomy 8:3
3And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
"Jump from Temple Tower": Deuteronomy 6:16
16Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
"Bow down to Satan": Deuteronomy 5:9
9Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
III. JESUS READ FROM THE SCRIPTURE WHEN HE TAUGHT IN THE NAZARETH SYNAGOGUE
Luke 4:16-21 from Isaiah 61:1-2
Luke 4:16-21
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
QUOTED FROM:
Isaiah 61:1-2
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
IV. JESUS TAUGHT CONCERNING THE LAW
Matthew 5:17-20;
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 1:43-44;
43 And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away;
44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Matthew 9:13 from Hosea 6:6
Matthew 9:13
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
QUOTED FROM:
Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
V. JESUS USED SCRIPTURE TO PROVIDE PROOF OF HIS MESSIAHSHIP
Matthew 11:5 from Isaiah 35:5-6
Matthew 11:5
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
QUOTED FROM:
Isaiah 35:5-6
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
VI. JESUS QUOTED SCRIPTURE WHEN HE SPOKE OF THE JUDGEMENT TO COME UPON CAPERNAUM
Matthew 11:23 from Isaiah 14:13-15 (spoken against Babylon)
Matthew 11:23
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
QUOTED FROM:
Isaiah 14:13-15
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
VII. JESUS REFERRED TO SCRIPTURE WHEN HE TAUGHT ON DIVORCE
Matt. 19:3-5 from Genesis 2:23-24
Matt. 19:3-5
3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
QUOTED FROM:
Genesis 2:23-24
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Mark 10:6-7 from Genesis 1:27; 2:24
Mark 10:6-7
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
QUOTED FROM:
Genesis 1:27
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 2:24
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
VIII. JESUS MADE MANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE SCRIPTURES
John 5:39-40;
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Luke 16:17;
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luke 16:29-31;
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Matthew 22:29
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
IX. JESUS OFTEN QUOTED FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT
Matthew 10:35 from Micah 7:6;
Matthew 10:35
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
QUOTED FROM:
Micah 7:6
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.
Mark 12:26-27 from Exodus 3:5-6;
Mark 12:26-27
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
QUOTED FROM:
Exodus 3:5-6
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Mark 12:29-31 from Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:17-18
Mark 12:29-31
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
QUOTED FROM:
Deuteronomy 6:4-5
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Leviticus 19:17-18
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
X. IN HIS POST-RESURRECTION APPEARANCE TO THE TWO DISCIPLES, JESUS TAUGHT FROM THE SCRIPTURES
Luke 24:25-27
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
http://www.webedelic.com/church/biblef.htm
.
An outline on Jesus using the Old Testament Scriptures in his ministry:
HOW WE KNOW THAT JESUS READ
AND KNEW THE BIBLE
A Sermon Prepared by Dr. Neil Chadwick
I. JESUS DISCUSSED THE SCRIPTURE WHEN HE WAS IN THE TEMPLE DURING THE VISIT WITH HIS PARENTS AT AGE 12
Luke 2:46
46And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
II. JESUS QUOTED FROM THE SCRIPTURE WHEN HE WAS TEMPTED BY SATAN IN THE WILDERNESS
"Turn Stone to Bread": Deuteronomy 8:3
3And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
"Jump from Temple Tower": Deuteronomy 6:16
16Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
"Bow down to Satan": Deuteronomy 5:9
9Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
III. JESUS READ FROM THE SCRIPTURE WHEN HE TAUGHT IN THE NAZARETH SYNAGOGUE
Luke 4:16-21 from Isaiah 61:1-2
Luke 4:16-21
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
QUOTED FROM:
Isaiah 61:1-2
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
IV. JESUS TAUGHT CONCERNING THE LAW
Matthew 5:17-20;
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 1:43-44;
43 And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away;
44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Matthew 9:13 from Hosea 6:6
Matthew 9:13
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
QUOTED FROM:
Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
V. JESUS USED SCRIPTURE TO PROVIDE PROOF OF HIS MESSIAHSHIP
Matthew 11:5 from Isaiah 35:5-6
Matthew 11:5
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
QUOTED FROM:
Isaiah 35:5-6
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
VI. JESUS QUOTED SCRIPTURE WHEN HE SPOKE OF THE JUDGEMENT TO COME UPON CAPERNAUM
Matthew 11:23 from Isaiah 14:13-15 (spoken against Babylon)
Matthew 11:23
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
QUOTED FROM:
Isaiah 14:13-15
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
VII. JESUS REFERRED TO SCRIPTURE WHEN HE TAUGHT ON DIVORCE
Matt. 19:3-5 from Genesis 2:23-24
Matt. 19:3-5
3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
QUOTED FROM:
Genesis 2:23-24
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Mark 10:6-7 from Genesis 1:27; 2:24
Mark 10:6-7
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
QUOTED FROM:
Genesis 1:27
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 2:24
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
VIII. JESUS MADE MANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE SCRIPTURES
John 5:39-40;
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Luke 16:17;
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luke 16:29-31;
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Matthew 22:29
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
IX. JESUS OFTEN QUOTED FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT
Matthew 10:35 from Micah 7:6;
Matthew 10:35
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
QUOTED FROM:
Micah 7:6
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.
Mark 12:26-27 from Exodus 3:5-6;
Mark 12:26-27
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
QUOTED FROM:
Exodus 3:5-6
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Mark 12:29-31 from Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:17-18
Mark 12:29-31
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
QUOTED FROM:
Deuteronomy 6:4-5
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Leviticus 19:17-18
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
X. IN HIS POST-RESURRECTION APPEARANCE TO THE TWO DISCIPLES, JESUS TAUGHT FROM THE SCRIPTURES
Luke 24:25-27
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
http://www.webedelic.com/church/biblef.htm
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gingercat said:Muts
I don't know about you but I will not make up my own image of God. I cannot be that arrogant. The best source to know God and Jesus is the Bible. ...
The best source to know God and Jesus is the Bible.
Amen to that!
=========================
I recommend these guys here in this thread stop trying to pervert and undermine the teachings of Jesus and the importance of the use of Scripture.
To Grow closer to knowing Jesus/God we are to study the scripture, no different than when Jesus studied and taught the scriptures when he was on earth in the flesh.
Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:14-17
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report ? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
gingercat said:Muts
I don't know about you but I will not make up my own image of God. I cannot be that arrogant. The best source to know God and Jesus is the Bible.
I did that all my life and failed miserably.
I’m not sure what you are saying Gingercat. What do you mean by making up my own image of God?
And after saying that you cannot be that arrogant you seem to indicate you used to be like that. ie “I did that all my life and failed miserablyâ€Â. So since you once must have been in a position that you now perceive others to be, what is it they are doing that is arrogant?
In any case, all that I have said is confirmed in scripture so what’s the problem?
Relic said:.
What are you guys trying to pull here? :smt018
Just because some people are reaping the harvest of "some" of the Good things in life, doesn't mean they truly know God. Some people are blind to the truth of God and just happen to benefit because they are in line with the absolute laws of God, but it doesn't mean they KNOW God. Even the rich man can miss entering through the gates of heaven!Mutz said:I didn't realise that I was pulling (or pushing) anything but truth.
Mutz said:And now I am even more perplexed. I have not claimed to be rich nor am I reaping a harvest of good things in life. As a matter of fact the only harvest I am interested in, has to do with the Kingdom of God.
Like I wrote in an earlier post.
These people who think we don't need the bible are not of the Judeo Christian belief.
They must be gnostics or some form of a belief system that undermines Christ Jesus. Gnostics and others who think there is no need for the written word have a knack for perverting "Christ"-ianity.Mutz said:Who has said that they don't need the bible? Just in case you are interested the bible is practically the only book I read.
Mutz said:How have I undermined Christ? But if you want to know about any 'knack' I may have, I wonder what the pharisees thought of the knack the apostles had. They knew them to be unlearned men.
So where did they get their wisdom? They had been with Jesus.
I wonder if anyone could accuse you of the same.
JESUS QUOTED MUCH OF SCRIPTURE FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT WRITINGS.
Even Paul wrote in the book of Colossians:
Colossians 3:16
- Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord
- .
And by the way mutzrein, Jesus spent time in the synagog learning and then later in his life teaching scripture. Jesus studied and taught the Old Testament writings.
Mutz said:So what is your point?
- Luke 2:41-52
39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. 43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. 44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. 45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. 47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. 48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. 51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
You forget, Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. Flesh has to be taught and disciplined .
Even Jesus was tempted by the devil in the garden of Gethsemane...But he was/is our perfect example of how to overcome. He was/is our living example of; Holy Spirit manifest in the flesh.
Even Jesus knew the FLESH must be taught and schooled. The old testament books are what Jesus studied and meditated on.
- Proverbs 22:17-21
17 Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge. 18 For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee; they shall withal be fitted in thy lips. 19 That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee. 20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, 21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?
Do you even realize how many times Jesus quoted the Old Testament writings and how many times the old testament writings are referenced in the New Testament books?
A search done for just the word written brings up 127 results in the New Testament alone. And that search doesn't include other scriptures that were quoted by Jesus and the Apostles of which didn't include the word written in them.
Now shall I post all of the 127 verses or do you want to look them up for yourselves?
Mutz said:No it’s alright thanks – I really don’t see the point
:roll: http://studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=written+§ion=2&translation=kjv&oq=written%20&new=1&sr=1
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R
Rick W
Guest
- Thread starter
- #30
So the authors who penned scripture did so in vain? No need for scripture?
Paul didn't know Christ but persecuted those who followed Him. And I'm not talking about protests/demonstrations, the Roman ACLU (ok, the RCLU) or a select group of activist judges. That is until God called on Paul to serve Him by spreading the gospel of Christ to the gentiles.
And what forms of communication are most common? Speech and the written word. Each author had a purpose, to pen the inspired word of God according to His will. Scripture is God's testimony of His pursuit of the hearts of men and make known to the world the Gift of His son Jesus Christ.
The inspired Word of God has a purpose and that purpose is the light of the world.
The Word of God is not an image. It is God. The Word is Christ. To know the Word is to know Christ. You cannot separate The Word from God. You cannot separate Christ from God's testimony. "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1:14 Yet, Christ did not preach throughout the entire world but sent His disciples to spread His gospel. And evidenced by the writtings of Moses, the prophets, the synoptic gospels, Pauls letters and others these followers of God used the written word to do His will.
To view scripture solely as a vehicle to an image ignores every message from God contained therein not to mention the purposes God had in mind to inspire it in the first place.
For some salvation came before reading The Word and for some salvation came after reading the Word. Yet in both cases Christ was there first. How so?
The Word of God IS Jesus.
Again, To know the Word is to know Christ.
Before I was saved I didn't know Christ and I couldn't read the Word. After I was saved I knew Christ and I could read the Word. One and the same, not separate. Not an image, not a painted picture but Christ himself.
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Paul didn't know Christ but persecuted those who followed Him. And I'm not talking about protests/demonstrations, the Roman ACLU (ok, the RCLU) or a select group of activist judges. That is until God called on Paul to serve Him by spreading the gospel of Christ to the gentiles.
And what forms of communication are most common? Speech and the written word. Each author had a purpose, to pen the inspired word of God according to His will. Scripture is God's testimony of His pursuit of the hearts of men and make known to the world the Gift of His son Jesus Christ.
The inspired Word of God has a purpose and that purpose is the light of the world.
The Word of God is not an image. It is God. The Word is Christ. To know the Word is to know Christ. You cannot separate The Word from God. You cannot separate Christ from God's testimony. "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1:14 Yet, Christ did not preach throughout the entire world but sent His disciples to spread His gospel. And evidenced by the writtings of Moses, the prophets, the synoptic gospels, Pauls letters and others these followers of God used the written word to do His will.
TruthMiner said:What you don't seem to understand is that the Bible IS an image of Jesus.
To view scripture solely as a vehicle to an image ignores every message from God contained therein not to mention the purposes God had in mind to inspire it in the first place.
For some salvation came before reading The Word and for some salvation came after reading the Word. Yet in both cases Christ was there first. How so?
The Word of God IS Jesus.
Again, To know the Word is to know Christ.
Before I was saved I didn't know Christ and I couldn't read the Word. After I was saved I knew Christ and I could read the Word. One and the same, not separate. Not an image, not a painted picture but Christ himself.
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
W
will
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- Thread starter
- #31
Being led by the spirit is vital in christian life. The bible however is how we learn about Christ.
This topic is NOT godly. The bible warns explicitly about causing our brothers and sister to stumble. We are to support and nurture one another not spread confusion.
The bible is the word of God to read to is vital.
This topic is NOT godly. The bible warns explicitly about causing our brothers and sister to stumble. We are to support and nurture one another not spread confusion.
The bible is the word of God to read to is vital.
T
TruthMiner
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- Thread starter
- #32
will said:Being led by the spirit is vital in christian life. The bible however is how we learn about Christ.
This topic is NOT godly. The bible warns explicitly about causing our brothers and sister to stumble. We are to support and nurture one another not spread confusion.
The bible is the word of God to read to is vital.
That's funny. The Bible says JESUS is the Word of God.
For example, I wonder how you have been reading the following verse all of your life:
For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart and there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to His eyes with whom we have to do. Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
G
gingercat
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- Thread starter
- #33
TruthMiner said:That's funny. The Bible says JESUS is the Word of God.
How do you follow Him without reading the Bible, making up you own image of Him? :roll: :roll: :roll:
W
will
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- Thread starter
- #34
Now that is a very good question.gingercat said:TruthMiner said:That's funny. The Bible says JESUS is the Word of God.
How do you follow Him without reading the Bible, making up you own image of Him? :roll: :roll: :roll:
S
Soma-Sight
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- Thread starter
- #35
How do you follow Him without reading the Bible, making up you own image of Him?
Maybe the Buddha heard the voice of the Logos without a Bible????
One who can recite many sacred verses
but cannot live by them
is like an accountant who tallies the wealth of others.
He does not live in peace and harmony.
One who can recite only a few sacred verses
but lives in the peace and harmony of those verses,
who has not succumbed to confusion in desire, passion or hatred
in the manifestations of Infinity,
lives in peace and harmony.
will said:Now that is a very good question.gingercat said:TruthMiner said:That's funny. The Bible says JESUS is the Word of God.
How do you follow Him without reading the Bible, making up you own image of Him? :roll: :roll: :roll:
Well therein lies the problem that Christendom has. Some say you need scripture in order to know what a Christian should do. Others like myself, say that scripture will actually confirm whether or not you are living in the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ.
When Jesus returned to the Father He asked the Father to send the Holy Spirit. This Spirit is the same Spirit which dwells within every person who is born of the Spirit. It is the same Spirit which Jesus said would lead us (those who are born of God) into all truth. And it is the same Spirit which has inspired men and women to write scripture. Now, if the Spirit (the Spirit of Truth) that dwells within us is the same Spirit that inspired and dwelt within those who wrote scripture, why is that we are told that we must use scripture as a ‘new covenant law’ (my phrase) in the same way as those who lived under the old covenant.
Listen, I live my life as one who is led of the Spirit of God. Now this doesn’t mean I am perfect from a human perspective. Far from it, for I know that since I am born of the flesh I am subject to the flesh in no different manner to any other human being. BUT, being born of the Spirit, enables me to put to death the deeds of the flesh. I live to the Spirit that I may die to the flesh. And if I am dead to the flesh, then it has no dominion or power over me.
Those who walk in the Spirit, and being aware that even though they are sinners, can live in the righteousness of God that comes by faith in Jesus. And if they remain in faith they will always be humbled by God’s grace, thus remaining in the arms of Jesus and producing fruit in keeping with the vine. This is what righteousness is all about and scripture confirms it.
Now those who want to achieve their goal by human effort, that is to resort to living their life according to what is expected of Christians, ‘because it is written’ are not living in the righteousness that comes by faith.
And this is exactly the issue that Paul was addressing with the Galatians when he said, (paraphrased) “Who has bewitched you? After starting with the Spirit are you now trying to achieve you goal by human effort?â€Â
So, if those of you who say that I should live my life BECAUSE of what is written, rather than walking in the righteousness of God that comes through faith in Christ, thus FULFILLING what is written, then may I say in humility and sincerity that you either have not received the Spirit of Christ or you are endeavouring to live as the Galatians did.
As a side note, living according to the Spirit does not mean that I don’t read scripture. Nor does it mean that I ignore it. In fact I read no other ‘Christian’ or ‘spiritual’ book. It means that when I read it I see fulfilled in it, the wondrous work of God revealed in my life and the lives of others who have the same heart after God that I do.