Faith alone questions

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus did say to be baptized.

...but not to be justified.
That's where the Catholic church goes wrong.

 

[GodsGrace]

Catholics.

Since they say there is only one doctrine among Catholics any Catholic can tell us what their theology is.

I'd appreciate your posting the official Catholic teaching from where you get your ideas. No excuses.

I don't like division between Christians for no reason.

 

[GodsGrace]

Negative.


And that's why the Reformed theology gospel can not provide assurance of salvation to a person. Because it says enduring to the very end in faith is the sign that you are a true believer. That's means you have to wait until the very end to know for sure if you're a real believer or not.

In non-Reformed Protestant theology, if you are presently believing you are presently saved. In that theology the condition for being a saved person is that you are presently believing (John 5:24). And the condition for remaining a saved person is that you continue to believe (1 John 2:24-25). And the sign that you really are a believer, and which you can draw assurance of salvation from, is the ever-increasing traits and fruit of the Spirit in your life (2 Peter 1:8-11). That's a very simple, very comforting gospel.

The more I think about this,
The more I see that all 3 type faiths are the same in this regard.

 

[GodsGrace]

...but not to be justified.
That's where the Catholic church goes wrong.

We MUST be baptized.
Every church requires it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We MUST be baptized.
Every church requires it.

Yes!

But NOT to be justified.
That happens entirely by faith apart from works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The more I think about this,
The more I see that all 3 type faiths are the same in this regard.

Only the non-Reformed Protestant position gives assurance that you really are saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Only the non-Reformed Protestant position gives assurance that you really are saved.

No it doesn't.
Not UNLESS you believe in OSAS...

A Protestant can decide to walk away from the faith 2 years from now.
At that point, you have also stated, that he would be apostate and no longer under Jesus' protection.

 

[Mungo]

Catholics.

Since they say there is only one doctrine among Catholics any Catholic can tell us what their theology is.

You don't have to be a theologian to be a Catholic.
On what basis do you claim that all Catholics are expert theologians?

 

[Mungo]

Justification and sanctification are two different things.

Justification means to be absolved of all guilt for wrongdoing.
Sanctification means to be cleansed and set apart for a holy purpose.
A person is sanctified (set apart to a holy purpose) the moment they are justified and absolved of all their sin guilt.
Sanctification is also understood as the process of you becoming more and more set apart in practice to that which you have been set apart to.

Sanctification can best be understood by how a housewife puts a set of special dishes aside to only be used for special meals at special times. That setting apart, that sanctification, happens the moment they are set apart for that purpose. But it may take time to sanctify them in regard to the kids no longer using them to heat up a chili dog when mom's not looking. But doing that in no way changed the status of those dishes being set apart for a special purpose. It's just that they sometimes aren't always being used for the special purpose for which they were set apart to. That develops over time.

In Catholic understanding, Justification and Sanctification are ways of referring to the same thing.

There are three stages types of Justification and three stages of Sanctification.
Justification is both an event and a process (or perhaps more accurately a series of events).

 

[Mungo]

...but not to be justified.
That's where the Catholic church goes wrong.

In your personal opinion

 

[Mungo]

Yes!

But NOT to be justified.
That happens entirely by faith apart from works.

In your personal opinion

 

[GodsGrace]

In your personal opinion

Hi Mungo
The above is for Jethro, but I'd have to say that Justification, or Initial Justification, is by Faith and nothing else.
God reaches out to us using grace, I think prevenient - can't remember-
We reply with a yes,
And baptism comes later.

If a person has accepted God and has faith and is going to an RCIA class and then dies in an accident before he could be baptized, he'd be saved by baptism of desire.

Do you agree?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No it doesn't.
Not UNLESS you believe in OSAS...

You must not understand OSAS very well.
It says you know you are saved by if you endure all the way to the end and don't stop believing.
The reason that theology does not provide assurance that you are really saved is you haven't arrived at the end yet to know if you have endured to the end showing yourself to really be saved. In OSAS there's always tomorrow to show that what you thought was saving faith today proved not to be at all. In OSAS doctrine, you can't be assured that you are really saved until you finish the course. So there is no assurance that your faith really is genuine in this life in OSAS.

A Protestant can decide to walk away from the faith 2 years from now.
At that point, you have also stated, that he would be apostate and no longer under Jesus' protection.

That is correct.
But how does falling away two years from now mean they couldn't have been genuinely saved right now and been sure of it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You don't have to be a theologian to be a Catholic.
On what basis do you claim that all Catholics are expert theologians?

Catholics aren't allowed to believe anything except what they are told to believe by the Catholic hierarchy. They are told that to reject the Catholic church is to reject Christ himself. You know this!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In Catholic understanding, Justification and Sanctification are ways of referring to the same thing.

Which is an incorrect understanding to have!
Justification and sanctification are by definition two different things.

There are three stages types of Justification and three stages of Sanctification.

There are two main distinct meanings of justification, and two for sanctification. And they aren't stages.

Justification is both an event and a process (or perhaps more accurately a series of events).

No, justification has two distinct meanings in scripture.

One definition of justified in scripture means being declared to be righteous by being absolved of the guilt of your sin. You BECOME righteous in this usage of the word justified. This is the meaning of justification Paul is talking about when he says a person is justified (made righteous) by faith, apart from works. This absolution occurs solely on the basis of a person's sin debt being forgiven through having faith in that forgiveness, not having the debt taken away or paid for by obediently performing righteous rituals and deeds. This definition of justification means to be MADE righteous.

And then there is the meaning of justification James uses in his letter. There he is referring to being declared to be righteous as evidenced by the deeds that the righteous person is producing. This definition of justification means to be SHOWN to be righteous by your works, not MADE to be righteous by your faith as Paul is talking about in his letters.

This failure to understand the two different meanings of justified that Paul and James are using is the fundamental reason why the Catholic church has an erroneous works justification theology. They think James is saying you become righteous by works. And they alter the understanding of the word 'works' in Paul's letter to make it line up with their erroneous understanding of James' justification.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In your personal opinion

Baptism does not MAKE you righteous.
No one is justified (made righteous) by obedience to perform rituals and deeds. Only having your unrighteousness forgiven by having faith in the gospel message of forgiveness and God giving you the imputation of His righteousness as a free gift of his grace makes a person righteous.

 

[Mungo]

Catholics aren't allowed to believe anything except what they are told to believe by the Catholic hierarchy. They are told that to reject the Catholic church is to reject Christ himself. You know this!

That is a stupid claim. Do really believe that if the Pope said 2+2=5 then Catholics would have to believe it?

If you mean doctrines then why didn't you say so?

But, assuming you did mean doctrines then what should I believe:

1. your personal opinions?

2. teachings of the Church that Christ founded on the apostles (Eph 2:20), described as the pillar and foundation of truth (1Tim 3:15), with one set of doctrines (Jude 3), with a unity of belief (Phil 1:27, 2:2), promised (by Jesus) that the Holy Spirit would lead it into all truth (Jn 16:13)?

 

[Mungo]

Which is an incorrect understanding to have!
Justification and sanctification are by definition two different things.

I didn't say they were identical.

There are two main distinct meanings of justification, and two for sanctification. And they aren't stages.


No, justification has two distinct meanings in scripture.

One definition of justified in scripture means being declared to be righteous by being absolved of the guilt of your sin. You BECOME righteous in this usage of the word justified. This is the meaning of justification Paul is talking about when he says a person is justified (made righteous) by faith, apart from works. This absolution occurs solely on the basis of a person's sin debt being forgiven through having faith in that forgiveness, not having the debt taken away or paid for by obediently performing righteous rituals and deeds. This definition of justification means to be MADE righteous.

And then there is the meaning of justification James uses in his letter. There he is referring to being declared to be righteous as evidenced by the deeds that the righteous person is producing. This definition of justification means to be SHOWN to be righteous by your works, not MADE to be righteous by your faith as Paul is talking about in his letters.

This failure to understand the two different meanings of justified that Paul and James are using is the fundamental reason why the Catholic church has an erroneous works justification theology. They think James is saying you become righteous by works. And they alter the understanding of the word 'works' in Paul's letter to make it line up with their erroneous understanding of James' justification.

There are three dimension to both Justification and Sanctification - past, present and future.

Justification:
Past - Rom 5:1-2, Rom 5:9
Present - James 2:24, Rom 3;28
Future - Rom 2:13, Rom 3;20

Sanctification
Past - 1Cor 6:11, Heb 10:10
Present - Heb 2:11, Heb 10:14
Future - Eph 1:4, Phil 1:10

BTW - do you notice there is a BIG difference between your posts and mine?
I give you scripture.
You just give me your personal opinions

 

[Mungo]

Baptism does not MAKE you righteous.
No one is justified (made righteous) by obedience to perform rituals and deeds. Only having your unrighteousness forgiven by having faith in the gospel message of forgiveness and God giving you the imputation of His righteousness as a free gift of his grace makes a person righteous.

Wrong again.
God wants both belief and obedience - the two things that Adam failed at in the garden.

Jesus said "He who believes [belief] and is baptized [obedience] will be saved"

N.B. Note I give scripture. You give your personal opinions.

 

[st_worm2]

Can you post the scripture that teaches us about "lay believers"?



JLB

Hello JLB, I apparently missed this post of yours, sorry about that.

Concerning what you asked of me, I would be happy to answer it for you, but I'd like to understand the reason for your question first, IOW, what is the point that you are trying to make by asking it?

Thank you!

--David