Faith alone questions

[Jethro Bodine]

Justification and righteousness are not the same thing.

Justification and being made righteous are the same thing. That is one definition of 'justified'. That is the definition Paul is using. Another definition of justified is to be shown to be righteous. That is the definition James is using. We know this from the context - Romans 3:21-22, and James 2:18 respectively.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no scripture that says that.



Again more personal opinions.

I'm sharing scripture, not personal opinion. Please address the evidence of the scripture I am presenting.

 

[donadams]

I don't remember mine. I do know I didn't receive the Spirit at that time. I also don't limit a God who can't be bound on how and when "He" chooses to dispense grace. We can read He opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble and the Spirit to those who obey Him.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

He bound himself
Acts 22:16 the sacrament washes away sin

 

[Mungo]

Justification and being made righteous are the same thing. That is one definition of 'justified'. That is the definition Paul is using. Another definition of justified is to be shown to be righteous. That is the definition James is using. We know this from the context - Romans 3:21-22, and James 2:18 respectively.

Rom 3:21-22 doesn't mention justification
James 2:18 doesn't mention justification or righteousness

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He bound himself
Acts 22:16 the sacrament washes away sin

Neither water, nor doing righteous things washes away sin. The Forgiveness of God and the Holy Spirit wash away sin, symbolized in the washing of water.

 

[Mungo]

I'm sharing scripture, not personal opinion. Please address the evidence of the scripture I am presenting.

You said

You can't. Justification makes you a saved person the moment you receive that justification by believing in God's promise. And as we see in scripture, the justification that makes you a saved person is without works. You don't work and are justified. You believe and are justified. Then after being justified, the free gift of this righteousness that you have received from God moves you to obedience commensurate with the righteousness you have received.

There is no scripture that says that

We see that in Genesis 22:12 when Abraham was obedient to offer Isaac up on the altar.

Claiming Gen 22:12 proves what you claim is just your opinion
It doesn't mention justification or righteousness.

 

[JLB]

The Bible speaks of the lay people in 2 Chronicles 35:5-7.
Apparently, the term 'lay minister' came to mean a person who has not been officially ordained to an office of ministry in the church but who functions in one to some degree or another.

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

I went to look up what “lay” people meant in the Strong’s so I switched to KJV because the NKJV had lay in italics.

And stand in the holy place according to the divisions of the families of the fathers of your brethren the people, and after the division of the families of the Levites. So kill the passover, and sanctify yourselves, and prepare your brethren, that they may do according to the word of the LORD by the hand of Moses. And Josiah gave to the people, of the flock, lambs and kids, all for the passover offerings, for all that were present, to the number of thirty thousand, and three thousand bullocks: these were of the king's substance. 2 Chronicles 35:5-7


It is simply a reference to the people as members of a family.



Some people refer to “laity” as a term in contrast to “leadership”.

In other words there is a division between “leadership” and “laity”.


This is something Jesus frowns upon (hates) and s called the doctrine of the Nicolatians.

Nicolatians means to conquer laity.

It was the idea that “leadership” was to be over (subdue) the laity in which the laity was to serve the leadership as a type of spiritual royalty.

Jesus taught that His apostles were to serve, not the other way around.

I see this mindset of leadership being served by the laity in many churches.

The tithe is seen as a type of spiritual tax that is for the “leadership” to enrich themselves. This attitude is seen in paganism.

This usually leads to a worldly compromising lifestyle.






JLB

 

[Mungo]

Saves, not justifies. Do you have a scripture that says baptism justifies?

As I said before:
Justification is part of salvation.
How can you be saved and not justified?
To which you replied - You can't

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom 3:21-22 doesn't mention justification
James 2:18 doesn't mention justification or righteousness

Romans 3:21-22 shows us that Paul is talking about one definition of justified in those chapters- that of becoming righteous. And James 2:18 shows us that James is talking about another definition of justified in his letter- that of being shown to have the righteousness that comes from God.

 

[Mungo]

Romans 3:21-22 shows us that Paul is talking about one definition of justified in those chapters- that of becoming righteous.

That assumes that justification and righteouness are the same thing. Something you have yet to prove.

And James 2:18 shows us that James is talking about another definition of justified in his letter- that of being shown to have the righteousness that comes from God.

See above and also your quote neither mentions justification or righteousness

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Claiming Gen 22:12 proves what you claim is just your opinion
It doesn't mention justification or righteousness.

James is talking about how Abraham was justified by his works showing that he believed the promise - Genesis 22:12, James 2:18.

Paul is talking about how Abraham was made righteous when he believed the promise - Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, Romans 3:21-22.

They are not talking about the same definition of justified. The Catholic church built their whole theology of works justification (becoming righteous by faith and works) over this failure to understand the difference between what Paul is saying about justification and what James is saying about justification.

James is NOT saying a man becomes righteous by faith and works. He is saying you are shown to have the righteousness of faith by your obedience. The context of each of their letters and the different accounts of Abraham each of them uses bears this out.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That assumes that justification and righteouness are the same thing. Something you have yet to prove.

I showed you in Paul's letter that justification and receiving the righteousness of God are the same thing. That is what Paul is talking about.

Meanwhile, James is not talking about receiving the righteousness of God, but rather showing that you have it by what you do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How can you be saved and not justified?
To which you replied - You can't

All people who believe are justified. All justified people are saved people - John 5:24, Romans 10:10.

There is no gap between being justified and being saved as the Catholic church teaches.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How can you be saved and not justified?
To which you replied - You can't

But anyway, the point is, the obedience of baptism is not what justifies.

 

[Mungo]

There is no gap between being justified and being saved as the Catholic church teaches.

Where does the Catholic Church teach that there is a gap between being justified and being saved?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Some people refer to “laity” as a term in contrast to “leadership”.

In other words there is a division between “leadership” and “laity”.

It's used to distinguish between officially ordained and trained believers being in offices of ministry, and believers from among the common people with no official ordination and training operating in offices of ministry - i.e. a lay pastor, or a lay minister.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where does the Catholic Church teach that there is a gap between being justified and being saved?

donadams, you're up, buddy.

Since Catholics claim there is no division among Catholics in doctrine and theology I will let him explain it to you.

 

[Mungo]

But anyway, the point is, the obedience of baptism is not what justifies.

I never claimed that the obedience of baptism is what saves us.
We know that it's not the actual baptism that saves us.
Jesus saves us when we believe and obey. And in baptism, when there is faith and obedience, we are saved.
We know that because Jesus said "He who believes [belief] and is baptized [obedience] will be saved"
(And in all this I'm referring to our initial justification/salvation).

 

[Mungo]

donadams, you're up, buddy.

Since Catholics claim there is no division among Catholics in doctrine and theology I will let him explain it to you.

YOU made the claim. YOU provide the evidence.

 

[Mungo]

All people who believe are justified. All justified people are saved people - John 5:24, Romans 10:10.

John 5:24. Belief requires obedience.
Disobedience is unbelief.

Rom 10:10 is not referring to our initial Justification