I would like to know whete to find instructions for "lay believers".
I really dont understand what a "lay believer" is, and what the difference is between a believer and a "lay believer".
Thanks in advance for your time.
JLB
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Faith alone questions
- Thread starter donadams
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I would like to know whete to find instructions for "lay believers".
I really dont understand what a "lay believer" is, and what the difference is between a believer and a "lay believer".
Thanks in advance for your time.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, but not for justification.
Justification occurs solely on the basis of one's faith in the promise of God.
That's how it was for Abraham, that's how it is for us. Paul said so.
Abraham did NO WORK when he was justified in Genesis 15:6.
But if you are sure he did, show us.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, 'saved', not justified.
Justification occurs solely on the basis of receiving the promise of God by faith. The same way Abraham was justified.
Jethro Bodine
Member
And I am showing you that the scriptures you are using do not say a man is justified (made righteous) by works. You do not get the righteousness that is from God by doing righteous things. You get the righteousness that is from God by believing the promise of God, by faith, apart from work. A faith that is evidenced by the work it produces showing a person believes the promise of God. That evidence then being what God uses to save a person from the wrath of God.
Hello again JLB, my reply (the one that I used the term "lay believers" in) was written to Don, I believe, as there was some insistence on his part (and perhaps on the part of some others as well) that witnessing/evangelism/apologetics were commands that were to be carried out by to the Apostles and their successors, alone, the overall point being made, then, was that outreach was the job of the clergy, never of the laity.
I disagreed with that assessment and then pointed to the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church), to at least one of the ECF (St. Thomas Aquinas), and to the Bible as evidence that this wasn't the case (and I ended up conflating terminology from those three sources as well, if memory serves, which included making some of it up, like the term "lay believers", for instance).
I'm sure that you are already aware that "laity" (the people in the pews) and "clergy" (the person in the pulpit) are words that are not found in the Bible, but we use them as concepts because what they mean is understood by most.
My point in writing "lay believers", then, was to separate that group of believers from believers who are part of the clergy. I apologize for the confusion that this clearly caused.
As far as examples of people in the Bible who are 1. believers and 2. not part of the clergy, I could give you MANY examples, of course, but I'll stick with the Sermon on the Mount for now, since I believe that it was the passage that I was referring to in my earlier post that included the term, "lay believers".
Here's an excerpt from the Sermon on the Mount that I am hoping will point some of this out for you.
Matthew 5
1 When Jesus saw ~the crowds~, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.
2 He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,
13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7
28 When Jesus had finished these words, ~the crowds~ were amazed at His teaching;
29 for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.
Hopefully that answers your questions!(?) If not, please let me know and I'll try again.
God bless you!!
--David
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Jethro Bodine
Member
No, not my opinions.
Believe the scriptures for what they actually say and mean as a cohesive, unified script, which is what I've been showing using the scriptures. It's IMPOSSIBLE that Paul and James are using the same definition and usage of the word 'justified'. Paul is talking about being MADE righteous by faith, all by itself. James is talking about being SHOWN to be righteous by your works. This one failure of understanding by the Catholic church has made the Catholic religion a works justification religion. They think James is saying a man is MADE righteous by performing works of faith.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Mungo
Member
That is your personal opinion
In Mk 16:16 Jesus was talking about our initial justification.
Abraham had already gone through that that - Gen 12:1 & 4
Gen 12:1 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you.
Gen 12:4 So Abram went, as the Lord had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
Abraham believed and obeyed.
BTW Gen 15:6 says righteousness not justification.
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Mungo
Member
Mungo
Member
I see no scripture in your reply - just personal opinions.
Mungo
Member
More personal opinions without scripture.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I'm taking this right out of scripture.
Since you are convinced it is not true, just show us what work Abraham did along with his faith in Genesis 15:6 to become righteous. That's all you have to show us from scripture.
Jethro Bodine
Member
That's your opinion.
No scripture says a person is justified by water baptism.
Jethro Bodine
Member
This should make it clear to you that justification and the gift of righteousness are one and the same thing:
16 ...the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Romans 5:16-17
Abraham was justified (received the gift of righteousness) by believing in the promise of God without any work.
Jethro Bodine
Member
This is how we know that is not work he did toward being justified and receiving the free gift of righteousness:
2If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Romans 4:2-3
He's saying that if it's true that Abraham was justified by works as you contend, he'd have something to boast about. But as it is, he doesn't, because he was justified (made righteous) by his believing, not his works.
Jethro Bodine
Member
You can't. Justification makes you a saved person the moment you receive that justification by believing in God's promise. And as we see in scripture, the justification that makes you a saved person is without works. You don't work and are justified. You believe and are justified. Then after being justified, the free gift of this righteousness that you have received from God moves you to obedience commensurate with the righteousness you have received. We see that in Genesis 22:12 when Abraham was obedient to offer Isaac up on the altar.
His obedience did not solicit the righteousness of God. It SHOWED that he received it back it Genesis 15:6 when he had faith. The confusing part for Catholics is, being shown to be righteous is also referred to as being justified. It is not the same meaning of justification that Paul is talking about in his letter. James is talking about being SHOWN to have the faith that makes one righteous. We know this right from the context (James 2:18). "I will show you my faith by my works."
Mungo
Member
Jesus saves us in water baptism.
Mk16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"
In 1Pet 3 Peter refers to Noah and eight people being saved and says in vs 22 "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"
Mungo
Member
Justification and righteousness are not the same thing.
Moreover there are three kinds of righteousness.
Which kind are you referring to?
Mungo
Member
There is no scripture that says that.
Again more personal opinions.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Saves, not justifies. Do you have a scripture that says baptism justifies?
A person is not made righteous by being righteous.