Mungo
Member
That doesn't mean they are the same thing.
Again you are claiming what you have yet to prove
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Faith alone questions
- Thread starter donadams
- Start date
Again you are claiming what you have yet to prove
He is not in the new covenant
He did receive circumcision
Where is there an altar call in scripture?
Accept Christ as your personal lord and savior is not in scripture it fundamentalist tradition
Jn 3:5 cannot enter on your own
Must be born again / baptismal regeneration
New creation in christ
This MUST be ministered to you
You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!
2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Baptism!
God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!
Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2
Born again! Born from above!
'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,
Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.
St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13
Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)
Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!
Christ instituted the holy church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation. (repent and believe the gospel) with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!
Matt 28:19
Effects of faith & baptism!
Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!
Faith and baptism!
Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!
Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”
2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!
“Faith alone” Questions
where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?
where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?
1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?
2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”
Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?
Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?
They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???
When we first believed we are saved?
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?
1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?
If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!
Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2
“Faith alone” unbiblical!
“Faith alone” is a heresy condemned by the authority of Christ in holy apostolic council!
We must also suffer!
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Phil 1:29 not called to believe alone but also to suffer for Christ’s sake.
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Where does it ever say faith alone?
Sorry for the lengthy info
Thanks
New verse in scripture according to fundamentalists?
Jn 3:22 “the went to Jerusalem to proclaim accept Christ as your lord and savior”!
Or real scripture
Jn 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Immediately they went and baptized made disciples by baptism Mk 16:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 1:4 acts 2:38 acts 8:36 acts 22:16 1 cor 12:11 gal
3:27 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21
'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,
St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13
Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)
Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!
Thanks
Sorry it’s a large subject
Faith alone” Questions
where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?
where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?
1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?
2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”
Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?
Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?
They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???
When we first believed we are saved?
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?
1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?
If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!
Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2
“Faith alone” unbiblical!
“Faith alone” is a heresy condemned by the authority of Christ in holy apostolic council!
We must also suffer!
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Phil 1:29 not called to believe alone but also to suffer for Christ’s sake.
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Where does it ever say faith alone?
Thanks
Jethro Bodine
Member
What you're claiming is the obedience of baptism justifies you (makes you righteous).
That is where the Catholic church goes dead wrong.
Faith is what justifies you, not works.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
donadams is the one representing the singular and unified Catholic doctrine of salvation after you die, not while you are alive in this life.
Don, you are the one teaching this Catholic doctrine, so you are the one who has to give us the reference to this belief in the Catechism. Please, educate your fellow Catholic, Mungo.
Jethro Bodine
Member
That is exactly true. And virtually every Protestant will tell you that.
Protestants know real faith is evidenced by the work it performs, and that it has to perform works of obedience, or else it isn't real faith. What you're not getting is the righteous obedience that faith produces is not what does the justifying (being made righteous). Faith all by itself does that. Because faith is what solicits the free gift of the imputation of God's righteousness, not works, just as that was true for Abraham, our example of justification by faith apart from works (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:21-24). That is Paul's argument.
Works simply show you to possess the righteousness of God that is by faith. That is James' argument. And so the truth is established in scripture that a man must be, both, justified by faith (MADE righteous by faith), AND justified by works (SHOWN to have that faith) - James 2:24. Protestants know this, and they know it quite well. What we Protestants disagree with is the Catholic church's contention that the works of faith, along with faith, is what MAKES you righteous. No, faith all by itself does that. And we know we have the faith that does that by the evidence of the work that faith produces. Just as that was true for Abraham (Genesis 22:12, James 2:18).
All this is in no way understood by Protestants to mean we can have a dead faith that doesn't work and still be saved from God's wrath. Because the absence of works is the absence of faith. A fake faith, not an incomplete faith. That's why it can't save (James 2:14). It's not justifying faith to begin with.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Justification and righteousness are not the same thing.
Justification and receiving a declaration of righteousness are the same thing.
To be justified means, by definition, to be given God's righteousness and, as a result, declared righteous.
Jethro Bodine
Member
That is an utterly failed argument.
Paul himself uses Abraham as the very example of how we are justified in this New Covenant.
You would do well to read Galatians 3 and see how Paul explains the law did not replace or remove or annul the covenant that God made with Abraham. The promise God made to Abraham is what gets fulfilled in this new covenant. The blessing promised to Abraham and his descendants is the giving of the Holy Spirit in this new covenant. Paul spells this all out there in Galatians 3. Read it.
Good grief Don.
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Mungo
Member
We are not discussing what happens when we die.
You are a very confused person.
No wonder your posts don't make sense.
Mungo
Member
All claims without scripture - i.e. personal opinions
Mungo
Member
You fail to understand what Paul means by works. He makes it clear in Romans that by works he means "works of the law" not any works.
It cannot be any works since belief is a work.
Mungo
Member
Here we have a difference between Catholics and Protestants.
Protestants believe that God declares you to be righteous even though you are not.
Catholics believe God actually does make us righteousness.
Moreover it seems we use words in different ways. Take righteousness; there are three different usages:
Legal Righteousness: Protestants equate this to Justification. It is extrinsic to man and is acquired solely by God’s decree. God declares a man to be righteousness, whether he is truly righteous or not. He “imputes” Christ’s Righteousness to man.
Behavioural Righteousness: Protestants call this Sanctification. This is a growing disposition or inclination to do good. It occurs only after justification.
Ontological Righteousness: This is what Catholics normally mean by “righteousness”. This is intrinsic to man. It is a quality of the soul. It is a transformation, and growth, brought about by God.
Jethro, this discussion is going nowhere so I'm dropping out, both from discussing with you and this thread.
Goodbye.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Well, you obviously don't read donadams posts, then.
So don't assume this has not been discussed.
I know that you will not get what I'm saying. I don't expect you too. Because, in general, the Catholic religion is for people who have not received the revelation that Luther received and that countless others of us have received that righteousness comes from God, by faith, as a free gift of his grace, and is not produced in a person by the effort of faithfully acting righteously. That was the flaw of the system of law ('this will be your righteousness' - Deuteronomy 6:25) - the flaw of the flesh.
Everything about the Catholic church screams 'old covenant' - it's priesthood, it's costumes, it's rituals, it's outward piety, it's works justification mindset. It simply lacks the revelation of the new covenant, the revelation of God's righteousness, a righteousness we can't produce within ourselves, received by faith, apart from works. I know you can't even understand these words I'm typing. I get it. I can't make you have a revelation from God that only God can give and make you understand.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
I categorically reject this argument because of the REASON why works can not justify (make you righteous). It's not a matter of some works do justify while others can't as the Catholic church asserts. The ONLY way to become righteous is to have your sins forgiven and to be given the imputation of God's righteousness received as a FREE gift of his grace, apart from the work and effort of behaving righteously. This is the revelation that ended Luther's struggle with the flesh and set him free from it and caused him to be BORN AGAIN, made new, made fresh, made powerful in God, not in the effort of his flesh to be righteous. He was resting in God's righteousness and no longer in his own effort to be righteous - the effort the Catholic church disguises as a new covenant gospel with the assertion that it is by God's grace that you behave righteously in order to become righteous.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
I understand this perfectly.
Catholics believe that God's grace is given to you to act righteously and, therefore, be righteous as God requires you to be righteous in order for a person to be saved. That is a works justification gospel.
Protestants know that it is impossible to behave righteously enough to satisfy God's requirement for righteousness because his standard of righteousness is absolute perfection. And so we depend on the promise of HIS righteousness given to us by faith as a free gift of his grace to have the righteousness that He requires to be saved. That is the faith justification gospel. The one revealed in the new covenant.
So you finally agree! Great
Jethro Bodine
Member
Did you forget that you believe baptism is a righteous act commanded by God that makes you righteous in his sight for doing it? That's no different than the Israelites thinking circumcision and Sabbath keeping were righteous acts commanded by God that made them righteous in his sight for doing them. That's the works justification gospel. The one condemned in scripture.
Paul takes us all the way back to Abraham to show us that we become righteous in God's sight by believing his promise about a son who will inherit the blessing on our behalf, not by doing righteous work. That's the faith justification gospel. The true gospel.