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Faith alone questions

Jethro Bodine said:
That is an utterly failed argument.
Paul himself uses Abraham as the very example of how we are justified in this New Covenant.

You would do well to read Galatians 3 and see how Paul explains the law did not replace or remove or annul the covenant that God made with Abraham. The promise God made to Abraham is what gets fulfilled in this new covenant. The blessing promised to Abraham and his descendants is the giving of the Holy Spirit in this new covenant. Paul spells this all out there in Galatians 3. Read it.
Click to expand...
Jesus requires faith and baptism
Mk 16:17
The scripture requires faith and baptism

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!





Faith and baptism:

16:16 he that believes and is baptized shall be saved
Matt 28:19 faith and baptism
Acts 2:38-39 repent and be baptized (promise of ez 36:25)
Acts 8:36-38 faith and baptism
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism
1 pet 3:21 baptism saves us
 
Randy said:
Good grief Don.
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
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Two sacraments here
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Well, you obviously don't read donadams posts, then.
So don't assume this has not been discussed.



I know that you will not get what I'm saying. I don't expect you too. Because, in general, the Catholic religion is for people who have not received the revelation that Luther received and that countless others of us have received that righteousness comes from God, by faith, as a free gift of his grace, and is not produced in a person by the effort of faithfully acting righteously. That was the flaw of the system of law ('this will be your righteousness' - Deuteronomy 6:25) - the flaw of the flesh.

Everything about the Catholic church screams 'old covenant' - it's priesthood, it's costumes, it's rituals, it's outward piety, it's works justification mindset. It simply lacks the revelation of the new covenant, the revelation of God's righteousness, a righteousness we can't produce within ourselves, received by faith, apart from works. I know you can't even understand these words I'm typing. I get it. I can't make you have a revelation from God that only God can give and make you understand.
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Christ reformed the mosaic covenant into the new and eternal covenant!

The new covenant was a reformation of the mosaic covenant so it has many similarities. Heb 9:10
Heb 10:9

Old Israel:

Ex 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

New Israel:

1 pet 2:5-9
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Thanks
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Well, you obviously don't read donadams posts, then.
So don't assume this has not been discussed.



I know that you will not get what I'm saying. I don't expect you too. Because, in general, the Catholic religion is for people who have not received the revelation that Luther received and that countless others of us have received that righteousness comes from God, by faith, as a free gift of his grace, and is not produced in a person by the effort of faithfully acting righteously. That was the flaw of the system of law ('this will be your righteousness' - Deuteronomy 6:25) - the flaw of the flesh.

Everything about the Catholic church screams 'old covenant' - it's priesthood, it's costumes, it's rituals, it's outward piety, it's works justification mindset. It simply lacks the revelation of the new covenant, the revelation of God's righteousness, a righteousness we can't produce within ourselves, received by faith, apart from works. I know you can't even understand these words I'm typing. I get it. I can't make you have a revelation from God that only God can give and make you understand.
Click to expand...
The Mosaic covenant priesthood:

Arron and His successors: high priests over the low priests, the Levites:

The common priesthood of the people: ex 19:6

The three fold new covenant priesthood: and priesthood in scripture is plural.

High priesthood: “Jesus Christ”
acts 10:14
heb 5:1
heb 8:1
heb 8:3


Ministerial priesthood: “apostles & their successors, and those they ordain” (low priests)
Mk 3:14
Jn 15:16
Jn 20:23
acts 1:15-26
acts 14:23
Acts 16:4
Rom 15:16
1 cor 9:14
1 Tim 3:1-2
1 Tim 2:7
1 Tim 4:14
Phil 1:1
James 5:14

The ministerial priesthood acts in “the person of Christ” so it is Christ who acts thru them vicariously.
2 cor 2:10


Royal priesthood: “baptized members of Jesus Christ”
1 pet 2:5-9

Thanks
 
There are three parts of the priesthood in the new covenant church:

In the order of Melchisedec,
Christ high priest:

His apostles low priests: or
Ministerial priesthood:

and the royal priesthood of Christians.

Christ is Eternal priest:

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Christ is High priest:

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Low priests / priesthood:

There must be low priests in the same order for a high priest to be over them. And the word in scripture “priesthood” is plural.

Jn 20:21-23 apostles have authority to forgive sins.

Christians Required to Confess you’re sins.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Lamb of God:

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 cor 5:7 …For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Christ is Eternal priest:

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Christ is High priest:

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Low priests / priesthood:

There must be low priests in the same order for a high priest to be over them. And the word in scripture “priesthood” is plural.

The holy sacrifice of Christ:

Holy sacrifice of Christ is offered eternally, the office of a priest is to offer sacrifice, Christ is eternal priest so He offers an eternal sacrifice! Both by the high priest and the low priesthood.

once for all:

once bloody on the cross and for all time unbloody sacrifice, pure offering or clean oblation.

Jesus Christ at the last supper ordained the apostles as priests in the order of melchisedec, to offer His eternal sacrifice as he commanded them; do this in memory of me.

Do this in remembrance of me!

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Malachi 1:11

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

A pure offering:
A Clean oblation:
An Unbloody sacrifice:

No possibility for Protestants to offer worship to God in spirit and truth!

Both mosaic and the new Christian covenants have a:

Temple
Ark of the new covenant
Altar
Propitiatory sacrifice
Triple priesthood
With true worship, adoration, reparation, thanksgiving, and petition in the correct and true faith revealed from Christ, and inspired by His spirit and proposed by His holy divine new covenant church!

New covenant Temple: (the body of Christ) Jn 2:19
Ark of the new covenant: (Mary) Lk 1:35
Altar: (the cross) heb 13:10
New covenant Sacrifice: (the eternal propitiatory sacrifice of Christ)
Acts 20:28 Eph 2:13 heb 9
heb 10:19
Priesthood: (the new covenant priesthood of Christ) heb 7:17
High priest: (Christ is high priest) heb 8:1
Low priests (the order of melchisedec) heb 7:17
Golden censor with incense: rev 8:3

All to the glory of God!
 
Mungo said:
Ontological Righteousness: This is what Catholics normally mean by “righteousness”. This is intrinsic to man. It is a quality of the soul. It is a transformation, and growth, brought about by God.
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And this is the exact place where Catholic theology goes off the rails.

You are right that "this is what Catholics normally mean by "righteousness"" - the righteousness of your behavior. They think they are declared righteous (justified) by this righteousness, the righteousness that is "intrinsic to man" (your quote) - their righteousness, the righteousness they say God gave them the grace to produce and by which they receive final justification. It is the justifacation of works- becoming righteous by being righteous, the righteousness of law, and relying on that righteousness to enter into the kingdom.

This is the very righteousness - the righteousness intrinsic to man - that Protestants know can not make you perfectly righteous in God's sight. And so we receive and rely on the clothing of the righteousness that comes from God by faith when we cast ourselves on his mercy, helpless to produce the standard of perfect righteousness that God requires.

But this perfect righteousness does not come without consequence. It starts in us the ever increasing traits and qualities of the Spirit that testify to us that we are indeed children of God growing up in to the image of his righteousness with which we are clothed and protected by for the day of wrath.

The receiving of God's grace in justification is not a licence to willfully and deliberately sin with spiritual impunity as some suppose Protestant theology teaches. The person who abuses it that way will eventually lose it altogether, assuming they ever had it to begin with.
 
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donadams said:
Christ reformed the mosaic covenant into the new and eternal covenant!

The new covenant was a reformation of the mosaic covenant so it has many similarities. Heb 9:10
Heb 10:9

Old Israel:

Ex 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

New Israel:

1 pet 2:5-9
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Thanks
Click to expand...
The Catholic church retains the erroneous works justification mentality of the covenant of law, 'be righteous to become righteous'.
 
donadams said:
The Mosaic covenant priesthood:

Arron and His successors: high priests over the low priests, the Levites:

The common priesthood of the people: ex 19:6

The three fold new covenant priesthood: and priesthood in scripture is plural.

High priesthood: “Jesus Christ”
acts 10:14
heb 5:1
heb 8:1
heb 8:3


Ministerial priesthood: “apostles & their successors, and those they ordain” (low priests)
Mk 3:14
Jn 15:16
Jn 20:23
acts 1:15-26
acts 14:23
Acts 16:4
Rom 15:16
1 cor 9:14
1 Tim 3:1-2
1 Tim 2:7
1 Tim 4:14
Phil 1:1
James 5:14

The ministerial priesthood acts in “the person of Christ” so it is Christ who acts thru them vicariously.
2 cor 2:10


Royal priesthood: “baptized members of Jesus Christ”
1 pet 2:5-9

Thanks
Click to expand...
A Catholic priesthood that serves a works justification religion.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Did you forget that you believe baptism is a righteous act commanded by God that makes you righteous in his sight for doing it? That's no different than the Israelites thinking circumcision and Sabbath keeping were righteous acts commanded by God that made them righteous in his sight for doing them. That's the works justification gospel. The one condemned in scripture.

Paul takes us all the way back to Abraham to show us that we become righteous in God's sight by believing his promise about a son who will inherit the blessing on our behalf, not by doing righteous work. That's the faith justification gospel. The true gospel.
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Not your faith?
 
donadams said:
No possibility for Protestants to offer worship to God in spirit and truth!
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You are quite wrong about that.

God is not looking for, let alone demanding, that we conduct rigid, orchestrated and controlled, ritualistic, ceremonial masses for Him. I don't believe that's what really pleases him based on this, and my own experience:

17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. Romans 14:17-18

Be filled with joy and peace and live righteously in the Spirit. That is service to Christ that is pleasing to God. And men who see it and approve of the beauty of it.
 
donadams said:
You can have salvation but not been justified?
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No, you can not be saved and not justified. You must be justified in order to be saved.

Water baptism does not justify a person.
That is what you are not getting.

No work can justify a person (make them righteous).
The only way to become righteous is to have the guilt of your unrighteousness forgiven and God's righteousness put in it's place. But Catholics are busy using God's grace to intrinsically produce the righteousness within themselves that they think makes a person righteous enough to inherit the kingdom. That is a works justification gospel. The one condemned in scripture. Meanwhile, we Protestants rely on God's righteousness imputed to us when we believe, apart from the merit of working righteous deeds and rituals to be declared righteous and enter into the kingdom.
 
donadams said:
Works alone?
Click to expand...
Catholicism is a works justification religion wearing the disguise of faith + works justification. It says God gives you the grace by faith to do the righteous rituals and works by which you are justified. Many, many people are fooled by it. Natural people, not spiritual people.
 
Let this sink in:

You have to do good works and receive the sacraments to be saved. If you reject this, you reject justification by faith.
 
Walpole said:
Let this sink in:

You have to do good works and receive the sacraments to be saved. If you reject this, you reject justification by faith.
Click to expand...
Good works and sacraments DO NOT MAKE YOU A RIGHTEOUS PERSON. THEY DO NOT JUSTIFY YOU. Only faith in God's forgiveness and the imputation of HIS righteousness to you can do that.

If a person thinks that various sacraments constitute the works that are expected of believers in God then that's what they need to do. But in no way do those sacraments, or good deeds, even if they're done in faith, make you a righteous person (that is, they do not justify you). That is the works justification gospel. The one condemned in scripture.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
And this is the exact place where Catholic theology goes off the rails.

You are right that "this is what Catholics normally mean by "righteousness"" - the righteousness of your behavior. They think they are declared righteous (justified) by this righteousness, the righteousness that is "intrinsic to man" (your quote) - their righteousness, the righteousness they say God gave them the grace to produce and by which they receive final justification. It is the justifacation of works- becoming righteous by being righteous, the righteousness of law, and relying on that righteousness to enter into the kingdom.

This is the very righteousness - the righteousness intrinsic to man - that Protestants know can not make you perfectly righteous in God's sight. And so we receive and rely on the clothing of the righteousness that comes from God by faith when we cast ourselves on his mercy, helpless to produce the standard of perfect righteousness that God requires.

But this perfect righteousness does not come without consequence. It starts in us the ever increasing traits and qualities of the Spirit that testify to us that we are indeed children of God growing up in to the image of his righteousness with which we are clothed and protected by for the day of wrath.

The receiving of God's grace in justification is not a licence to willfully and deliberately sin with spiritual impunity as some suppose Protestant theology teaches. The person who abuses it that way will eventually lose it altogether, assuming they ever had it to begin with.
Click to expand...
Actions make you just or wicked

Nehemiah 9:33
Howbeit thou art just in all that isbrought upon us; for thou hast done right, but we have done wickedly:

Proverbs 3:33
The curse of the Lord is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just.

Proverbs 21:15
It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

Isaiah 26:7
The way of the just is uprightness:

Isa 56:1

Ezekiel 18:5
But if a man be just, and do that which islawful and right,
Ezekiel 18:9
Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he isjust, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what isgood; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
 
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