Faith AND Works-James 2...Again

[dadof10]

Dad, you seem to be saying that dead faith and saving faith are one in the same. The very fact that any faith that does not produce works is dead means that it is not saving faith.

At the end of the chapter, James sums up, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

So, again, I have to conclude that James is indeed talking about the "kind of faith one must have"...not a simple "belief", but a true faith that will always produce works. The example of "a 'saved' person, with real, true faith [who] does not show charity to a person in need" is a bit of a false example, because no person with "real, true faith" would fail to show charity to a person in need.

We can go back to our Lord's example of the seed scattered amongst the rocky places and the thorns. For a while, the seed does produce growth, but it soon dies out. Either the roots have no purchase or the thorns choke out the life. These are different from those which fell by the wayside. Those by the wayside never sprouted at all, but those in the rocky places and the thorns sprouted, just never grew to fruition. There was a start to life, but life quickly died. Dead plants produce no fruit.

Dead faith produces no works. It cannot be called a "saving" faith, because it is dead.

Dora, I don't have much time right now so it might take a little time to respond. I don't think you will mind, since you are on *ahem* vacation.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[warfrog]

I don't understand. How could anyone with true faith deny God by intentionally "refusing" to do the good works? To do this requires a lack of faith. A believer doesn't do good works in order to prove their faith but because of their faith. The faithful don't just believe in Jesus, they have surrendered their pride and let Jesus take control of their lives. The result is depicted in the good works they do. They let their light shine for all to see.

You may not be able to understand it, which i hope you never do.
But its quite possible, as possible as thinking you are doing the works of Jesus Christ when you are not and when the supper comes you are not permitted entry.

Its the condition of the heart: love, faith and hope, in there somewhere, something goes astray.
I also hope i never go through its affects and so it is a matter in my heart regarding all my prayers which i pray to God the way Christ Jesus told me to.

Haha, dadof10 is that like an automatic cellphone advertisement that comes out each time you use it?

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[dadof10]

"False" faith? Believing in God is not false, my friend. James HIMSELF says "you do well" to believe God. However, this faith, alone, does not save. James words are perfectly clear. Faith alone does not save. What more can be said???

Believing in God, although good, is not enough to save. Even the devil believes that God exists. A belief in God is not enough to save. It must have works added to it to save. That is the correct understanding of this scriptures. Remember, we are not talking about initial justification here. To enter heaven, one must have a faith working in love. For faith without love is NOTHING. (1 Cor 13:2) Do you think that "nothing" can save you for eternal life? No, and James makes that perfectly clear.

Regards

I was hoping you would show up here, Joe. I'm basically stressing the fact that works affect our salvation. My take needs to be tempered by the "faith working through love" aspect of Catholic teaching, and you put it so well. I don't want to leave the impression that the Church teaches what some call "works salvation". There are only so many hours in a day and I can't hit everything.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[Sam21]

"False" faith? Believing in God is not false, my friend. James HIMSELF says "you do well" to believe God. However, this faith, alone, does not save. James words are perfectly clear. Faith alone does not save. What more can be said???

Believing in God, although good, is not enough to save. Even the devil believes that God exists. A belief in God is not enough to save. It must have works added to it to save. That is the correct understanding of this scriptures. Remember, we are not talking about initial justification here. To enter heaven, one must have a faith working in love. For faith without love is NOTHING. (1 Cor 13:2) Do you think that "nothing" can save you for eternal life? No, and James makes that perfectly clear.

Regards

I believe you have an error in your position,allow me,you said that believing in God is not false, I differ with you on that. Yes the demons believe that God is a reality,however that is not saving faith in the plan of God,so that would be non-saving faith or false faith. Again, it is incorrect faith that James is attacking,not correct faith in God. James is not saying that correct faith alone will not save you,for that would contradict Paul,James is saying that the kind of faith that is correct will have corresponding actions. "I will show you my faith by my works"James.

 

[Sam21]

Salvation is 100% a gift from God given at conversion,you were lost and headed for hell,you called upon God to save you and accepted Jesus as your Saviour,if God accepted that call than He forgave your sin and gave you the indwelling Holy Spirit and at that moment of time you passed from death to life,it was a gift from God,the only work involved on your part was to die to self and commit to God and ask Jesus to be your Saviour(and that can be work because our flesh does not want to do that). There is no such thing as working our way to Heaven,we are either given salvation at conversion or we are not really converted.

 

[warfrog]

Salvation is 100% a gift from God given at conversion,you were lost and headed for hell,you called upon God to save you and accepted Jesus as your Saviour,if God accepted that call than He forgave your sin and gave you the indwelling Holy Spirit and at that moment of time you passed from death to life,it was a gift from God,the only work involved on your part was to die to self and commit to God and ask Jesus to be your Saviour(and that can be work because our flesh does not want to do that). There is no such thing as working our way to Heaven,we are either given salvation at conversion or we are not really converted.

So what happened to the man and his wife in Acts?
Are they saved still?
Or how about the parable of the seeds?
Or why do some come to attend the supper but are not permitted?
Or the parable of the servants as i showed in a prior post?

Faith is made up on the condition of working in faith, you cannot have one and not the other, both must be together.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

I believe you have an error in your position,allow me,you said that believing in God is not false, I differ with you on that.

You think believing in God's existence is false faith??? I am almost certain that came out wrong - so I'll let you explain that one...

Yes the demons believe that God is a reality,however that is not saving faith

For James, what makes faith "saving" is something ADDED to faith. "For faith alone does not save"!!!

For James, faith is ONLY believing in God's existence. THAT ALONE DOES NOT SAVE.

What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, {intellectual belief} but have not works? can that faith {intellectual belief} save him. James 2:14

The answer is "NO"!

Please note, to avoid confusion, we are not talking about initial justification. We are talking about salvation to heaven, two different things here...

And again:

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith {intellectual belief} apart from works is barren? James 2:20

How on earth can faith alone save? Faith apart from works is barren...That cannot save... It cannot.

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith {intellectual belief}. James 2:24

NOT ONLY BY FAITH. How many more times must God tell us so plainly that faith alone cannot save (for eternal life)???

It should be obvious that James' idea of faith is the belief in God, while the works are absolutely necessary to be considered justified. I fear that you are defending "sola fide" rather than defending the Scriptures here...

in the plan of God,so that would be non-saving faith or false faith.

There is no "non-saving" faith/false faith" v "saving faith" in James. Faith is the belief in God's existence. ALONE, that cannot save. James does NOT say anything about 'saving faith'. He clearly says "faith AND works justify".

Again, it is incorrect faith that James is attacking

Sam, that is not what James is saying, that is what YOU are saying. A faith without works is dead. A faith alone is dead. Nothing is said about 'incorrect faith', since one MUST have at least faith - for "you do well" to have that.

Where does it say anything about 'saving faith'? Clearly, James sees faith = to intellectual belief in God's existence. And that's it. He does not relate it to a "walk in faith". He does not have faith swallow up obedience, trust, love, and so forth. To HIM, faith is the belief in God's existence. To him, faith is not enough.

ANY FAITH ALONE cannot save!!!!

Nothing is said about "saving faith". It is "can faith alone save" ANY Faith.

No...

Isn't that clear enough? I fear you are defending a slogan, rather than the Word of God, Sam. This is why Luther wanted to get rid of James. It completely destroyed his interpretation of "sola fide".

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I don't understand. How could anyone with true faith deny God by intentionally "refusing" to do the good works? To do this requires a lack of faith. A believer doesn't do good works in order to prove their faith but because of their faith. The faithful don't just believe in Jesus, they have surrendered their pride and let Jesus take control of their lives. The result is depicted in the good works they do. They let their light shine for all to see.

True faith, to James, is belief in God. That is an absolute necessity to be saved for heaven. One cannot be pleasing to God without belief in God. HOw can this be "bad faith"? But if you read James 2:14-16, perhaps you will recognize something there in our own walk. James is saying "don't just talk the talk, walk the walk". Just talking does not save. OR, to quote Jesus

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Mat 7:21

Those who talk the talk but not walk the walk aren't getting into heaven.

Many people will say "Jesus, I said 15 years ago that you were my Lord and Savior. I would like to now enter heaven". And Jesus will say:

"I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".

Not doing the will of the Father - works of love - is what potentially sends us to eternal damnation. NOT DOING... The question is not about not believing, but not doing.

Regards

 

[warfrog]

Here is a direct corrolation (<--hopefully thats the right word ;) ) between faith and works in relation to Jesus and God.

You cannot accept Jesus and not accept the Father, nor can you accept the Father without Jesus, for they are One.

You cannot have faith without works, nor can you have works without faith, for they are one.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

And so does Jesus's parable of the servants. Matthew 25: 14-30

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I fear those of the sola fide persuasion have hardly looked at the Gospels, for sola fide is disproven abundantly by Jesus Himself...

"What must I do to have eternal life", said the rich young man.

Does Jesus say anything about faith alone? Does He say "don't do anything, just have faith"??? Or my favorite, "Just declare 'me' as your Lord and Savior"???

No, Jesus tells the man to put aside the attachment that keeps him from coming closer to God - money. The man loves his money, and that is preventing him from being a true disciple. Jesus looked on the man and "loved him" for his obedience to God!!!

Just one example of many. Mat 25 has three examples, as you point out one of them..

Regards

 

[warfrog]

I fear those of the sola fide persuasion have hardly looked at the Gospels, for sola fide is disproven abundantly by Jesus Himself...

"What must I do to have eternal life", said the rich young man.

Does Jesus say anything about faith alone? Does He say "don't do anything, just have faith"??? Or my favorite, "Just declare 'me' as your Lord and Savior"???

No, Jesus tells the man to put aside the attachment that keeps him from coming closer to God - money. The man loves his money, and that is preventing him from being a true disciple. Jesus looked on the man and "loved him" for his obedience to God!!!

Just one example of many. Mat 25 has three examples, as you point out one of them..

Regards

I dont know what sola fide is, but it doesnt sound good lol.

 

[Prince]

I fear those of the sola fide persuasion have hardly looked at the Gospels, for sola fide is disproven abundantly by Jesus Himself...

"What must I do to have eternal life", said the rich young man.

Does Jesus say anything about faith alone? Does He say "don't do anything, just have faith"??? Or my favorite, "Just declare 'me' as your Lord and Savior"???

No, Jesus tells the man to put aside the attachment that keeps him from coming closer to God - money. The man loves his money, and that is preventing him from being a true disciple. Jesus looked on the man and "loved him" for his obedience to God!!!

Just one example of many. Mat 25 has three examples, as you point out one of them..

Regards

Hello

The question that was asked was asked by a young man who had obviously got his riches from ill-gotten gains....

If a person gets rich by the blessings of God, God would not make them sell all they have but if you rob a ndcheat and steal then you must get rid of those items to enter the kingdom...

 

[warfrog]

Hello

The question that was asked was asked by a young man who had obviously got his riches from ill-gotten gains....

If a person gets rich by the blessings of God, God would not make them sell all they have but if you rob a ndcheat and steal then you must get rid of those items to enter the kingdom...

The purpose wasnt to make him sell all he has, the purpose was to show he loved His money more than He loved Jesus, he wasnt willing to give that all up when asked directly from Jesus the Christ because He loved his money and possession more than Jesus.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Riverwolf]

Hello

The question that was asked was asked by a young man who had obviously got his riches from ill-gotten gains....

If a person gets rich by the blessings of God, God would not make them sell all they have but if you rob a ndcheat and steal then you must get rid of those items to enter the kingdom...

How do you know it was ill-gotten gains?
How do you know God would not make them sell all they have?
Please show me the verses, I will add them to my study.

 

[WIP]

True faith, to James, is belief in God. That is an absolute necessity to be saved for heaven. One cannot be pleasing to God without belief in God. HOw can this be "bad faith"? But if you read James 2:14-16, perhaps you will recognize something there in our own walk. James is saying "don't just talk the talk, walk the walk". Just talking does not save. OR, to quote Jesus

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Mat 7:21

Those who talk the talk but not walk the walk aren't getting into heaven.

Many people will say "Jesus, I said 15 years ago that you were my Lord and Savior. I would like to now enter heaven". And Jesus will say:

"I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".

Not doing the will of the Father - works of love - is what potentially sends us to eternal damnation. NOT DOING... The question is not about not believing, but not doing.

Regards

I agree. I'm just not getting my point across very well. I don't believe that "the works" are something the faithful must consciously endeavor to accomplish. When we finally submit ourselves completely and let the Holy Spirit control our lives, the love of Christ envelops us so much and so completely that the works become a part of who we are, how we act, and what we think. We don't have to step back and ask ourselves what we need to do next or if we should do this or that or decide between right and wrong. We no longer have to set goals to do good works, our actions and our life become the character reflection of Christ in our lives. Good works become an everyday occurrence without having to put forth any effort at all because we have been changed by Christ and its who we've become. The stronger our faith the more noticeable the works. Christ was the example of perfect faith and his works were beyond our own comprehension and belief. It's not a question of "having" to do good works. Good works "will" be done. It's not a question of having to obey His commandments. When we love Christ with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength we "will" obey his commandments without forethought or question. Not because He commands us to but because we want to out of love for Him. We die to the law, let Jesus remove the cloak of our sin, and live in Christ so His commandments and the good works become part of us. We are in Christ and Christ is in us.

 

[Sam21]

So what happened to the man and his wife in Acts?
Are they saved still?
Or how about the parable of the seeds?
Or why do some come to attend the supper but are not permitted?
Or the parable of the servants as i showed in a prior post?

Faith is made up on the condition of working in faith, you cannot have one and not the other, both must be together.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The man and woman in Acts proved their false faith that cannot save by their actions. The only seeds that were actually saved were the ones on good ground who had actually been born again. Those coming to the supper without a proper garment were those not actually born again but who considered themselves to be christian. The servant who did not have correct faith acted out that incorrect faith and was not accepted because of it.

 

[Sam21]

People who accept Christ as Saviour have to follow the Lord in obedience, however a Christian cannot earn their way with the Lord by doing good works.

 

[warfrog]

People who accept Christ as Saviour have to follow the Lord in obedience, however a Christian cannot earn their way with the Lord by doing good works.

Agreed, but you cant be grafted in by just having faith with no works, because then you wouldnt be following the Lord in obedience.

Which is what ive been saying the whole time, work by faith.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

Hello

The question that was asked was asked by a young man who had obviously got his riches from ill-gotten gains....

Where exactly does the Bible say that the rich young man got his money from "ill-gotten gains"??? Maybe he just inherited it. Maybe he was a legitimate business man. The Bible CLEARLY says the man obeyed the commandments, and "Jesus looked at him and loved him". Doesn't sound like someone who lied and cheated - disobedience to the commandments.

You are avoiding the obvious by inventing something that the Scriptures do not allow.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

Re: Faith AND Works-James 2...Again

Originally Posted by Sam21
People who accept Christ as Saviour have to follow the Lord in obedience, however a Christian cannot earn their way with the Lord by doing good works.

Then this [TRUTH] comes along by another-->




Agreed, but you cant be grafted in by just having faith with no works, because then you wouldnt be following the Lord in obedience.

Which is what ive been saying the whole time, work by faith.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

__________

Elijah here: It sounds like this one keeps the Ten Commands? If not, then they are talking out of both sides of their mouth. And if they are totally Obedient, then it is to be documented as such. Or the [posted remarks] are blasphemy at best. 1 John 2:4 + Matt. 23:2-3

--Elijah
​