Faith AND Works-James 2...Again

[dadof10]

So salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus alone.

Yes. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus alone, if a person is in the SITUATION you described. Otherwise it is by faith working through love. Nice try.

This is the only way to reconcile the plain reading of the entirety of Scripture. Many "faith-aloners" only focus on the Thief and ignore, or explain away, the Rich, Young Man. These two SCRIPTURAL episodes can be easily reconciled if we look at each ones SITUATION. Otherwise they contradict.

Now, the person that has saving faith in Jesus will perform works as a result.

And if he doesn't? Will his sin or lack of charity affect his salvation?

The person that has faith in Jesus just before their last breath and the person that has faith in Jesus long before their last breath are saved in the same way.

If you mean by Grace alone, I agree. It's Christ working IN us that produces good works and faith.

If you mean by faith alone....Nope.

 

[Adullam]

Again here the trouble lies in translating faith into English.

In Greek the word "pistis" means BOTH faith and faithfulness. It is very hard to say..."Pistis without pistis is dead." How does one convey the need for both aspects of the same word?

So the word "works" was added.

We are saved by faithfulness to Christ. Our beliefs have nothing to do with salvation. It is about what we do and who we are. This is covered by the word faithfulness (an aspect of the meaning of pistis).

"The just will live because of his faithfulness."Habakkuk 2:4



That is the true rendering of the OT verse.


NT faith is the God given ability to grasp the ungraspable. To see what eyes can't see! Faith is a supernatural seeing; a supernatural understanding! But we can't walk by faith all the time...(unless we are seeing into the heavenlies as we walk).......but we can walk in faithfulness.

 

[Sparkey]

Again here the trouble lies in translating faith into English.

In Greek the word "pistis" means BOTH faith and faithfulness. It is very hard to say..."Pistis without pistis is dead." How does one convey the need for both aspects of the same word?

So the word "works" was added.

We are saved by faithfulness to Christ. Our beliefs have nothing to do with salvation. It is about what we do and who we are. This is covered by the word faithfulness (an aspect of the meaning of pistis).

"The just will live because of his faithfulness."Habakkuk 2:4



That is the true rendering of the OT verse.


NT faith is the God given ability to grasp the ungraspable. To see what eyes can't see! Faith is a supernatural seeing; a supernatural understanding! But we can't walk by faith all the time...(unless we are seeing into the heavenlies as we walk).......but we can walk in faithfulness.

I really liked your comment about the two meanings of the word that is translated into English as 'faith': both belief (strong conviction) and fidelity (faithfulness). It emphasizes that some wrongfully want to divorce faith from faithfulness which can not be done -- except by death -- in this case, the death of faith. One begets the other.

The way I understand the question about faith is: "Can it automatically save?"
-- Answer would be: Not if it is dead (divorced from ability to produce). Faith is a marriage contract and the reason we want to become One with God is in response to His desire. We become more like him and this is shown and seen in our actions.

I can't show you my thoughts although I will be judged by them. Each man will be judged by his/her every thought, every word, and every deed. It won't be my words alone which may reflect my thinking but but my acts (my works) too.

Final comment (please allow):
I hesitate to correct you because it's more likely that I didn't understand well (based on my experience of being wrong so often) but I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by the declaration, "So the word 'works' was added." The word "works" was translated from the word, "e'r-gon". It was translated, not added. Pardon my saying this. I really do appreciate your comment about Faith and Faithfulness. They are a single thought and cannot be divorced from each other.

 

[Adullam]

I really liked your comment about the two meanings of the word that is translated into English as 'faith': both belief (strong conviction) and fidelity (faithfulness). It emphasizes that some wrongfully want to divorce faith from faithfulness which can not be done -- except by death -- in this case, the death of faith. One begets the other.

The way I understand the question about faith is: "Can it automatically save?"
-- Answer would be: Not if it is dead (divorced from ability to produce). Faith is a marriage contract and the reason we want to become One with God is in response to His desire. We become more like him and this is shown and seen in our actions.

I can't show you my thoughts although I will be judged by them. Each man will be judged by his/her every thought, every word, and every deed. It won't be my words alone which may reflect my thinking but but my acts (my works) too.

Final comment (please allow):
I hesitate to correct you because it's more likely that I didn't understand well (based on my experience of being wrong so often) but I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by the declaration, "So the word 'works' was added." The word "works" was translated from the word, "e'r-gon". It was translated, not added. Pardon my saying this. I really do appreciate your comment about Faith and Faithfulness. They are a single thought and cannot be divorced from each other.

OK

What I meant is that James used to word ergon so as to show the other aspect of the word pistis...which undoubtedly had been limited in value even in his own time. He couldn't use fidelity or faithfulness to describe pistis fully because he would have had to use pistis again! So nothing would come of this attempt at clarification.

So which is the greater conundrum?

Using a word (pistis) with a faulty understanding of the meaning both of an instant faith AND a continued faithfullness?

OR

Using a word (faith) that has only one aspect of the original word it was translated from?

In either case the full meaning of the word is lost.

Are we saved (eternally) by a one time faith in Jesus?

Or are we saved through a continuing faithfulness unto death?

A very brief study of the bible will show the latter to be true.


Of course one can be saved in a given circumstance through a one-time faith. So we are delivered in a daily way by MANY one-time faith acts.

But this adds up to a continuing faithfulness..being full of faith!

 

[dadof10]

Again here the trouble lies in translating faith into English.

In Greek the word "pistis" means BOTH faith and faithfulness. It is very hard to say..."Pistis without pistis is dead." How does one convey the need for both aspects of the same word?

So the word "works" was added.

The word is "ergon" not "pistis". "Pistis choris ergon esti nekros kai". "Faith without works is dead also". This is from BLB (Thayer's). Do you have a source for using "pistis" instead of "ergon" here?

 

[Adullam]

The word is "ergon" not "pistis". "Pistis choris ergon esti nekros kai". "Faith without works is dead also". This is from BLB (Thayer's). Do you have a source for using "pistis" instead of "ergon" here?

If you look up a few posts you will get more the gist of the context of the conversation.

I was saying that James could not say...Pistis without pistis is dead. He had to find another word to describe that faithfulness as well as faith was required.

Pistis means BOTH faith AND faithfulness.

But we in English can say...Faith without faithfulness is dead!

dadof8

 

[Sparkey]

Hearing without hearing is also dead (if it is void of understanding).
Still, and even though I do understand your thought that faith (heartfelt conviction) is dead unless it produces continued faithfulness and fidelity) what James said was that it must produce something. Else it is dormant and has no profit.

I'm being very free with my own word choice here and could incur criticism as I try to merge both meanings but that's only because I do hear both and to me there is no conflict.

Let those with an ear to hear, hear. There are many such concepts in the Bible and it is by the Spirit that we do understand that Endurance under trial is one of the main themes found in the book of James. He also speaks of how our lust begets sin and how sin begets death. Lust in us is the thing that temptation grabs hold of and that is how we are turned from the right way. A man can not serve two masters. Satan found nothing in our Lord and although Jesus was tempted like as we are -- but there was no sin. In much the same manner we, who follow after Him, will no longer fulfill the desires of the flesh because the death of Jesus serves as a legal writ of divorcement and breaks the bond between us and death. This is not by our own doing but the act of Jesus and our resulting change will be seen in our consequent acts, words and thoughts. That is how John, the Apostle, was able to say, "Little children, be not confused. Those who do good are good."

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."

James said that faith without words is dead [being alone and all by itself]. That is the same as a dead body being alone after the spirit of the man occupied it had departed it. Look and compare verse 20 with verse 26. He literally means dead here.

 

[dadof10]

If you look up a few posts you will get more the gist of the context of the conversation.

I was saying that James could not say...Pistis without pistis is dead. He had to find another word to describe that faithfulness as well as faith was required.

Pistis means BOTH faith AND faithfulness.

But we in English can say...Faith without faithfulness is dead!

dadof8

OK, gotcha...I see it now. Didn't read far enough down before responding.

I agree with your premise, that "faithfulness" to God, an ongoing faith working through love, is what saves. Welcome to the Catholic understanding of salvation.

 

[Adullam]

OK, gotcha...I see it now. Didn't read far enough down before responding.

I agree with your premise, that "faithfulness" to God, an ongoing faith working through love, is what saves. Welcome to the Catholic understanding of salvation.

I in turn welcome you to the biblical understanding of salvation!

God bless! <><

 

[dadof10]

I in turn welcome you to the biblical understanding of salvation!

God bless! <><

That's redundant

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[Adullam]

That's redundant

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I prefer the word reciprocal!


Bible + Holy Spirit= True Church!

 

[tjw]

Yes. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus alone, if a person is in the SITUATION you described. Otherwise it is by faith working through love. Nice try.

This is the only way to reconcile the plain reading of the entirety of Scripture. Many "faith-aloners" only focus on the Thief and ignore, or explain away, the Rich, Young Man. These two SCRIPTURAL episodes can be easily reconciled if we look at each ones SITUATION. Otherwise they contradict.
And if he doesn't? Will his sin or lack of charity affect his salvation?

If you mean by Grace alone, I agree. It's Christ working IN us that produces good works and faith.

If you mean by faith alone....Nope.

It sounds like you are saying that salvation changes from person to person... Can you clarify that?

 

[MarkT]

Faith is not the belief in God in the sense he exists. Faith is the trust in God through Jesus Christ. Trust Jesus. Keep his commandments. What's so difficult to understand?

Abide in him. If you love him, you will keep his commandments. If a man says he believes in Jesus but he hates his brother, then he either doesn't know Jesus or his faith isn't very strong. The ones who keep his commandments know him. Even believing and confessing count as works. Prayer counts as a work. Keep his words in your heart. That's faith in a spiritual sense. His words in your heart equals life. God will direct you. He will keep you from evil. Show mercy. Forgive others. That's doing the work of God. Show yourselves to be good workmen. Keep yourselves from evil.

 

[n2thelight]

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

This is how any man is judged by God or another man; you are judged by what you do that others can see. It is important to confess Christ to others, and repent of your sins to the Heavenly Father in Jesus name, but the degree that others will believe you, is by the action that you do through your works. Works will not save you alone, it is faith that saves you, and what makes your faith believable is the works that are produced by your faith. It is impossible for anyone to have faith in our Father and His Word, and know His overall plan, and not be doing works in your life. The one produces the other. You simply cannot pray for the wisdom from God, and the blessings from God, and not do something about it through your works. It is an impossibility.

Revelation 14:13 "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforeth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them' "

Your works are the only thing that you take with you, for your works are already written in the book. It is what your eternal garment that you will be wearing for all eternity is made of. John was doing the writing as the Holy Spirit of Jesus is doing the talking, and telling John exactly what to write. Your labors are what you do in the flesh, not the spirit, it is what you do while in your flesh body. Your labors are your works and those things that you do for Christ and each of them follow you to heaven when you die, or at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Your works are what shows the quality of man or woman, boy or girl that you are.

 

[dadof10]

It sounds like you are saying that salvation changes from person to person... Can you clarify that?

No, I'm saying people's SITUATIONS change, God desires all people to come to salvation and that salvation is a PROCESS not a one-time event. See my post to Handy above. Abraham was justified three times, or more accurately, justification was an ongoing process in his life. The Thief on the cross was justified by faith alone because its the only thing he could do because of his situation. The Rich, Young Man was told he must keep the commandments to gain eternal life. He and Abraham were in the same situation, they both came to believe (presumably) many years before death and salvation was a PROCESS that lasted a lifetime.

It is a common mistake within Protestantism to look at salvation as a one-time event and this notion clouds the proper, Biblical understanding of soteriology.

How else do you reconcile the fact that Abraham was justified three times?

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[dadof10]

Faith is not the belief in God in the sense he exists. Faith is the trust in God through Jesus Christ. Trust Jesus. Keep his commandments. What's so difficult to understand?

Abide in him. If you love him, you will keep his commandments. If a man says he believes in Jesus but he hates his brother, then he either doesn't know Jesus or his faith isn't very strong. The ones who keep his commandments know him. Even believing and confessing count as works. Prayer counts as a work. Keep his words in your heart. That's faith in a spiritual sense. His words in your heart equals life. God will direct you. He will keep you from evil. Show mercy. Forgive others. That's doing the work of God. Show yourselves to be good workmen. Keep yourselves from evil.

And if you fail to do all these things, in other words, sin, will this affect your salvation?

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[tjw]

No, I'm saying people's SITUATIONS change, God desires all people to come to salvation and that salvation is a PROCESS not a one-time event. See my post to Handy above. Abraham was justified three times, or more accurately, justification was an ongoing process in his life. The Thief on the cross was justified by faith alone because its the only thing he could do because of his situation. The Rich, Young Man was told he must keep the commandments to gain eternal life. He and Abraham were in the same situation, they both came to believe (presumably) many years before death and salvation was a PROCESS that lasted a lifetime.

It is a common mistake within Protestantism to look at salvation as a one-time event and this notion clouds the proper, Biblical understanding of soteriology.

How else do you reconcile the fact that Abraham was justified three times?

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What do you mean when you say that Abraham was justified 3 times?

 

[Sam21]

Well, believing from the heart that the sacrifice of Christ has made you acceptable to God is saving faith, and continuing to believe that Christ sacrifice is making you acceptable to God is faithfulness(works). We simply cannot DO things that make us acceptable to God. I see James as simply admonishing christians to have the right kind of faith,a simple test that something is wrong with your faith would be the example of James of not actually helping a brother or sister in need. We are saved to do good works,however there is danger in believing that God is accepting us because of a good work,we were accepted at conversion because of faith in Christ sacrifice, and we continue to be accepted because we continue to practice faith in Christ sacrifice. Abraham was not saved by good works,Abraham was saved because of faith in God and because he had true faith in God he was faithful(James called it works). I think a good point was made by the brother that said that the WORKS attributed to Abraham was his faithfulness that was a natural product of his correct faith.

 

[n2thelight]

Works I believe is what we do with the gifts that God has given us.....

 

[Sparkey]

"And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD." Hosea 2:19-20