Faith AND Works-James 2...Again

[dadof10]

This is a discussion of James 2:14-25. I will give a brief exegesis of the verses and I look forward to many comments.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? (James (RSV) 2)

You will immediately notice that what James is talking about is FAITH. Not a lack of faith, not a "said faith", in which the hypothetical "man" merely says he has faith but really doesn't. "Can his faith save him?" is the question, not "Can the man merely SAYING he has faith, save him?"

James is talking about FAITH. He goes on with an example of how having faith without works doesn't "profit".

If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. (James (RSV) 2)

Again, "faith". Not a man saying he has faith, but really not having it. What can this mean, but what the words actually say, that "FAITH, if it has no works, is dead"? Twisting the words with an adjective to mean "a person who merely SAYS he has faith, but really doesn't" is damaging the plain words of Scripture.

But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." (James (RSV) 2)

This verse ALWAYS gets glossed over by the "faith alone" crowd, yet is important to show the context of what he is actually arguing. Using an antonym is a good teaching tool.

Notice this is the OPPOSITE of what was argued in verses 14-17, which presented the scenario that "I have faith, you have works". James asks what profit is there if a man has faith and no works, verse 15 argues that the OTHER EXTREME IS ALSO MISGUIDED.

In verse 14; a man says he has faith and has no works. In verse 18; a "someone" says he has works, but has no faith. If you think that James is talking about a "said faith" in verse 14, then it stands to reason he is talking about "said works" in verse 18. Does this really make sense?

Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. (James (RSV) 2)

Faith AND works, not faith alone (14-17), not works alone (v. 18), but faith and works together. This is what "profits".

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. (James (RSV) 2)

Even demons have rudimentary faith, yet it can't save them. This is an extreme example to prove his point, that faith without works, even though it's still faith, does not profit. As he goes on...

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? (James (RSV) 2)

Now an example...

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; (James (RSV) 2)

So, after reading the above, I have a question. Was Abraham "justified by works"? It's a simple yes or no question. Let's read it again:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

Yes or no. No twisting of the words of Scripture to suit a "faith alone" heresy. I believe the plain words of Scripture that say: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works..." How about you?

Faith is active along WITH his works and faith completed BY his works. So, according to James, "completed faith" justifies, incomplete faith, even though it's still faith, does not. As in the example in verses 15-16, if you refuse to show charity to others, even though you have faith, it does not profit, does NOT JUSTIFY. If the "man" in verse 14 refuses to act charitably to his "ill-clad" neighbor, will he still be justified, even though he has faith? The obvious answer is NO.

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James (RSV) 2)

"YOU SEE..." What was James getting at with the example of Abraham? "That a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

Another question: Is man justified by faith alone or by works? Reading the plain words of Scripture, the answer is obvious to anyone over the age of seven.

And James is not done...

And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? (James (RSV) 2)

"AND IN THE SAME WAY..." The same way as Abraham, by faith and works.

Another question. How was Rahab the harlot justified? Another no-brainer.

And finally, the conclusion...

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. (James (RSV) 2)

Again, not "said faith", not "a faith that claims to be real, but isn't". FAITH, if it has no works, does NOT justify. Pretty simple and straight forward.

I didn't go into too much detail on purpose. I hope for many differing views, and a lively debate.

 

[Elijah674]

This is a discussion of James 2:14-25. I will give a brief exegesis of the verses and I look forward to many comments.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? (James (RSV) 2)

You will immediately notice that what James is talking about is FAITH. Not a lack of faith, not a "said faith", in which the hypothetical "man" merely says he has faith but really doesn't. "Can his faith save him?" is the question, not "Can the man merely SAYING he has faith, save him?"

James is talking about FAITH. He goes on with an example of how having faith without works doesn't "profit".

If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. (James (RSV) 2)

Again, "faith". Not a man saying he has faith, but really not having it. What can this mean, but what the words actually say, that "FAITH, if it has no works, is dead"? Twisting the words with an adjective to mean "a person who merely SAYS he has faith, but really doesn't" is damaging the plain words of Scripture.

But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." (James (RSV) 2)

This verse ALWAYS gets glossed over by the "faith alone" crowd, yet is important to show the context of what he is actually arguing. Using an antonym is a good teaching tool.

Notice this is the OPPOSITE of what was argued in verses 14-17, which presented the scenario that "I have faith, you have works". James asks what profit is there if a man has faith and no works, verse 15 argues that the OTHER EXTREME IS ALSO MISGUIDED.

In verse 14; a man says he has faith and has no works. In verse 18; a "someone" says he has works, but has no faith. If you think that James is talking about a "said faith" in verse 14, then it stands to reason he is talking about "said works" in verse 18. Does this really make sense?

Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. (James (RSV) 2)

Faith AND works, not faith alone (14-17), not works alone (v. 18), but faith and works together. This is what "profits".

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. (James (RSV) 2)

Even demons have rudimentary faith, yet it can't save them. This is an extreme example to prove his point, that faith without works, even though it's still faith, does not profit. As he goes on...

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? (James (RSV) 2)

Now an example...

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; (James (RSV) 2)

So, after reading the above, I have a question. Was Abraham "justified by works"? It's a simple yes or no question. Let's read it again:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

Yes or no. No twisting of the words of Scripture to suit a "faith alone" heresy. I believe the plain words of Scripture that say: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works..." How about you?

Faith is active along WITH his works and faith completed BY his works. So, according to James, "completed faith" justifies, incomplete faith, even though it's still faith, does not. As in the example in verses 15-16, if you refuse to show charity to others, even though you have faith, it does not profit, does NOT JUSTIFY. If the "man" in verse 14 refuses to act charitably to his "ill-clad" neighbor, will he still be justified, even though he has faith? The obvious answer is NO.

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James (RSV) 2)

"YOU SEE..." What was James getting at with the example of Abraham? "That a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

Another question: Is man justified by faith alone or by works? Reading the plain words of Scripture, the answer is obvious to anyone over the age of seven.

And James is not done...

And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? (James (RSV) 2)

"AND IN THE SAME WAY..." The same way as Abraham, by faith and works.

Another question. How was Rahab the harlot justified? Another no-brainer.

And finally, the conclusion...

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. (James (RSV) 2)

Again, not "said faith", not "a faith that claims to be real, but isn't". FAITH, if it has no works, does NOT justify. Pretty simple and straight forward.

I didn't go into too much detail on purpose. I hope for many differing views, and a lively debate.

No DEBATE from this end. Titus 3:9-11 tells me that my Working LOVING Obedient Faith, would suggest VAINNESS on my part in any debate. Perhaps another name rather than DEBATE could fit the question?

Anyhow, 'i' see This Required FAITH for ones [MATURE] Maturing. Nah. 1:9 And that this is what Eternal Life is ALL ABOUT! From day one on, ALL 'SALVATION' PROMISES ARE CONDITIONAL!

--Elijah

 

[dadof10]

No DEBATE from this end. Titus 3:9-11 tells me that my Working LOVING Obedient Faith, would suggest VAINNESS on my part in any debate. Perhaps another name rather than DEBATE could fit the question?

Anyhow, 'i' see This Required FAITH for ones [MATURE] Maturing. Nah. 1:9 And that this is what Eternal Life is ALL ABOUT! From day one on, ALL 'SALVATION' PROMISES ARE CONDITIONAL!

--Elijah

Paul debated. What's wrong with lively debate? If I change the words to "discussion" will you actually respond to the OP instead of preaching to us?

 

[Elijah674]

Paul debated. What's wrong with lively debate? If I change the words to "discussion" will you actually respond to the OP instead of preaching to us?

I can see that 'i' do not belong in this thread:fight

--Elijah

 

[handy]

This is a discussion of James 2:14-25. I will give a brief exegesis of the verses and I look forward to many comments.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? (James (RSV) 2)

You will immediately notice that what James is talking about is FAITH. Not a lack of faith, not a "said faith", in which the hypothetical "man" merely says he has faith but really doesn't. "Can his faith save him?" is the question, not "Can the man merely SAYING he has faith, save him?"

James is talking about FAITH. He goes on with an example of how having faith without works doesn't "profit".

If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. (James (RSV) 2)

Again, "faith". Not a man saying he has faith, but really not having it. What can this mean, but what the words actually say, that "FAITH, if it has no works, is dead"? Twisting the words with an adjective to mean "a person who merely SAYS he has faith, but really doesn't" is damaging the plain words of Scripture.

But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." (James (RSV) 2)

This verse ALWAYS gets glossed over by the "faith alone" crowd, yet is important to show the context of what he is actually arguing. Using an antonym is a good teaching tool.

Notice this is the OPPOSITE of what was argued in verses 14-17, which presented the scenario that "I have faith, you have works". James asks what profit is there if a man has faith and no works, verse 15 argues that the OTHER EXTREME IS ALSO MISGUIDED.

In verse 14; a man says he has faith and has no works. In verse 18; a "someone" says he has works, but has no faith. If you think that James is talking about a "said faith" in verse 14, then it stands to reason he is talking about "said works" in verse 18. Does this really make sense?

Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. (James (RSV) 2)

Faith AND works, not faith alone (14-17), not works alone (v. 18), but faith and works together. This is what "profits".

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. (James (RSV) 2)

Even demons have rudimentary faith, yet it can't save them. This is an extreme example to prove his point, that faith without works, even though it's still faith, does not profit. As he goes on...

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? (James (RSV) 2)

Now an example...

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; (James (RSV) 2)

So, after reading the above, I have a question. Was Abraham "justified by works"? It's a simple yes or no question. Let's read it again:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

Yes or no. No twisting of the words of Scripture to suit a "faith alone" heresy. I believe the plain words of Scripture that say: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works..." How about you?

Faith is active along WITH his works and faith completed BY his works. So, according to James, "completed faith" justifies, incomplete faith, even though it's still faith, does not. As in the example in verses 15-16, if you refuse to show charity to others, even though you have faith, it does not profit, does NOT JUSTIFY. If the "man" in verse 14 refuses to act charitably to his "ill-clad" neighbor, will he still be justified, even though he has faith? The obvious answer is NO.

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James (RSV) 2)

"YOU SEE..." What was James getting at with the example of Abraham? "That a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

Another question: Is man justified by faith alone or by works? Reading the plain words of Scripture, the answer is obvious to anyone over the age of seven.

And James is not done...

And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? (James (RSV) 2)

"AND IN THE SAME WAY..." The same way as Abraham, by faith and works.

Another question. How was Rahab the harlot justified? Another no-brainer.

And finally, the conclusion...

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. (James (RSV) 2)

Again, not "said faith", not "a faith that claims to be real, but isn't". FAITH, if it has no works, does NOT justify. Pretty simple and straight forward.

I didn't go into too much detail on purpose. I hope for many differing views, and a lively debate.

This is the sort of discussion that has me missing this place. I do have a couple of thoughts on this I'll share before going back to my "vacation"...

Consider this:

"You will immediately notice that what James is talking about is FAITH."

Yes! Yes he is. Faith is the subject of the passage. Not, faith and works, but rather, what is faith...how we are to define what faith is. Not simple "belief" because if that were all that was necessary, then the demons would indeed be saved.

What kind of faith is saving faith? James said, "I will show you by my works."

Saving faith is a very busy faith. Dead faith isn't.

Even more simply put....

Where there is no "works", there is no faith.

Even the great chapter on faith, Hebrews 11, shows us this. In Hebrews 11, we see all the saints of old, all those witnesses who walked before us be extolled by their faith...and the entire chapter describes what they did.

Faith drives our actions. If it doesn't, it is dead.

In the endless debate of "Faith AND Works" vs. "Faith Alone"...I believe that we Christians miss the true meaning of what James is getting at...

...and that is to define what faith is.

 

[WIP]

I believe faith and works go together. How can someone truly have faith without works? Works is the reflection of one's faith. I believe that is what Jesus meant when he said, "You will know them by their fruits." The fruits are the works that shine forth from one's faith. True faith removes all deception. One cannot live with Jesus Christ in their heart and not have the works to show for it. Works are the natural response to the faith that is within you.

 

[dadof10]

This is the sort of discussion that has me missing this place. I do have a couple of thoughts on this I'll share before going back to my "vacation"...

Consider this:

"You will immediately notice that what James is talking about is FAITH."

Yes! Yes he is. Faith is the subject of the passage. Not, faith and works, but rather, what is faith...how we are to define what faith is. Not simple "belief" because if that were all that was necessary, then the demons would indeed be saved.

He contrasts faith and works many times in these verses, so it is possible to have actual faith (as opposed to belief or intellectual assent) and NOT have works. Abraham's WORKS are what justifies him, not his TRUE faith alone. I'm sure you'll agree that Abraham's faith was what you would call a "saving faith", yet James says that his WORKS justify, not his faith alone.

That's the problem with this interpretation, it seems like those who profess it make it seem like "saving faith" automatically produces works EVERY time works are necessary without fail. My experience shows that is undeniably false.

What kind of faith is saving faith? James said, "I will show you by my works."

Saving faith is a very busy faith. Dead faith isn't.

True enough...

Even more simply put....

Where there is no "works", there is no faith.

False...

What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?

So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

It is obvious from these verses that there is faith without works, and that faith alone does not save. You can put a caveat on this faith if you want, but the example of Abraham should be a clue as to the "kind of faith" that doesn't save by itself. What kind of faith did Abraham have?

Even the great chapter on faith, Hebrews 11, shows us this. In Hebrews 11, we see all the saints of old, all those witnesses who walked before us be extolled by their faith...and the entire chapter describes what they did.

Faith drives our actions. If it doesn't, it is dead.

In the endless debate of "Faith AND Works" vs. "Faith Alone"...I believe that we Christians miss the true meaning of what James is getting at...

...and that is to define what faith is.

This question usually gets to the heart of our disagreement.

If a person has a real, true, "saving faith", and he does NOT show compassion for the poor, (walks by and says "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body) does this lack of compassion affect his salvation in some way?

I would say resoundingly "Yes". This is what James is talking about. He's not describing a "saving faith", he is saying that your salvation rests on your actions, your cooperation with God's plan (Grace).

As I said above, because a person is really, truly saved doesn't mean he will always do "good works" EVERY TIME he should. If he doesn't it will affect his justification. This applies to everyone, even if he has the faith of Abraham.

 

[dadof10]

I believe faith and works go together. How can someone truly have faith without works? Works is the reflection of one's faith. I believe that is what Jesus meant when he said, "You will know them by their fruits." The fruits are the works that shine forth from one's faith. True faith removes all deception. One cannot live with Jesus Christ in their heart and not have the works to show for it. Works are the natural response to the faith that is within you.

When we refuse to do the "good works", will that rebellion affect our salvation? If a "saved" person, with real, true faith does not show charity to a person in need, will this affect our justification? James says "yes". That is what these verses are about, not the "kind of faith" one must have.

 

[Sam21]

He contrasts faith and works many times in these verses, so it is possible to have actual faith (as opposed to belief or intellectual assent) and NOT have works. Abraham's WORKS are what justifies him, not his TRUE faith alone. I'm sure you'll agree that Abraham's faith was what you would call a "saving faith", yet James says that his WORKS justify, not his faith alone.

That's the problem with this interpretation, it seems like those who profess it make it seem like "saving faith" automatically produces works EVERY time works are necessary without fail. My experience shows that is undeniably false.

True enough...

False...

What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?

So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

It is obvious from these verses that there is faith without works, and that faith alone does not save. You can put a caveat on this faith if you want, but the example of Abraham should be a clue as to the "kind of faith" that doesn't save by itself. What kind of faith did Abraham have?

This question usually gets to the heart of our disagreement.

If a person has a real, true, "saving faith", and he does NOT show compassion for the poor, (walks by and says "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body) does this lack of compassion affect his salvation in some way?

I would say resoundingly "Yes". This is what James is talking about. He's not describing a "saving faith", he is saying that your salvation rests on your actions, your cooperation with God's plan (Grace).

As I said above, because a person is really, truly saved doesn't mean he will always do "good works" EVERY TIME he should. If he doesn't it will affect his justification. This applies to everyone, even if he has the faith of Abraham.

Romans 4 if Abraham were justified by works he has whereof to glory but not before God,for what says the scripture,Abraham BELIEVED God and it was COUNTED unto him for righteousness. To him that WORKS NOT but BELIEVES on Him that justifies the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness. Blessed the man whom the Lord imputes righteousness without works. The promise that Abraham should be the heir of the world through the righteousness of faith. Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace. Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The word of faith that we preach,that if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you shall be saved. Either James was contradicting Paul or else James did not actually mean that people are saved by works. What if James was simply trying to make a point to those he knew that were not living the christian life of service while claiming to be christian? The NT simply does not teach justification by works, that is a lie,God only accepts faith in Christ and His sacrifice.

 

[warfrog]

Romans 4 if Abraham were justified by works he has whereof to glory but not before God,for what says the scripture,Abraham BELIEVED God and it was COUNTED unto him for righteousness. To him that WORKS NOT but BELIEVES on Him that justifies the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness. Blessed the man whom the Lord imputes righteousness without works. The promise that Abraham should be the heir of the world through the righteousness of faith. Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace. Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The word of faith that we preach,that if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you shall be saved. Either James was contradicting Paul or else James did not actually mean that people are saved by works. What if James was simply trying to make a point to those he knew that were not living the christian life of service while claiming to be christian? The NT simply does not teach justification by works, that is a lie,God only accepts faith in Christ and His sacrifice.

Greetings,

First we have to understand Abraham, exactly what did Abraham do to be counted in righteousness.

God speaks and calls Abraham:

"Abraham!"

Abraham answers the call of God "Here I am"

Abraham is already working faith in God, right from the start, God calls Him and He answers God, "Here I am"

Then we have God command an action from Abraham:

"Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you"

Notice how Father says "whom you love" God mentions this because He is testing Abraham, do you love Me more than the son I gave you?

Abraham sets off right away the next morning to head to the land of Moriah.
He is doing work according to his faith, he is setting off to where God has commanded, he is faithfully working to where God has directed Him.

Now remember, God has promised Abraham, great seed and the land as an inheritance and Abraham has faith in God and believes He will make it so.

Now look here what Abraham speaks to the young men with him and Isaac:

"Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you."

Here is more faith in Abraham he tells the young men with them that "WE" will come back to you, God told Him to sacrifice his son, yet Abraham knows and has faith in God regarding the promise, so he tells the young men "WE" will come back, he knows in his heart he is not going to be sacrificing his son.
Also note that Abraham tells the men to stay, God did not command Abraham anyone else but his son Isaac to go with him, and he follows God's command.

Here is the promise from God regarding Isaac that God gave to Abraham:
"No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him"

Abraham is still working by faith and literally working to fullfill what God commands.

So now we go to the next coversation, which is between Isaac and his father Abraham:

"My father!" Isaac says,
"Here I am, my son." replies Abraham.
"Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?" Isaac ask's, and Abraham replies "My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering."

How close was Abraham to knowing God? close enough to know that God would provide the lamb for a burnt offering, which is also a shadow of Christ.

So Abraham readys the offering and is prepared when an angel of the LORD stops him and is given a ram for the offering.

Abraham follows the word of God even knowing God has commanded him againts what God had previously promised him, he follows every command even in the seemingly contradictory commands, because He has faith in God and does the works of that faith.
Not only does Abraham have great faith in God, he works to the command of God, literally fullfilling what God has asked him, by faith, Abraham is living faith and works together, as we are commanded, one is not fullfilled by the other, both must be working together, we cannot have faith and no works and we cannot have works with no faith, we must all work with faith.

Thats the faith and works of Abraham that God account to him in righteousness.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Nick]

Excuse me for randomly sliding in, but...

This is a great thread! Thanks dadof10 and Dora for your wise words on this passage, that can so easily be misread, but is so important. :yes

It's late at night here. Perhaps tomorrow I might be able to contribute more to the discussion.

---

And you've got to ask yourself - is Dora really having a vacation if she saw this thread? (thanks for popping in!)

 

[handy]

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

It is obvious from these verses that there is faith without works, and that faith alone does not save. You can put a caveat on this faith if you want, but the example of Abraham should be a clue as to the "kind of faith" that doesn't save by itself. What kind of faith did Abraham have?

When we refuse to do the "good works", will that rebellion affect our salvation? If a "saved" person, with real, true faith does not show charity to a person in need, will this affect our justification? James says "yes". That is what these verses are about, not the "kind of faith" one must have.

Dad, you seem to be saying that dead faith and saving faith are one in the same. The very fact that any faith that does not produce works is dead means that it is not saving faith.

At the end of the chapter, James sums up, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

So, again, I have to conclude that James is indeed talking about the "kind of faith one must have"...not a simple "belief", but a true faith that will always produce works. The example of "a 'saved' person, with real, true faith [who] does not show charity to a person in need" is a bit of a false example, because no person with "real, true faith" would fail to show charity to a person in need.

We can go back to our Lord's example of the seed scattered amongst the rocky places and the thorns. For a while, the seed does produce growth, but it soon dies out. Either the roots have no purchase or the thorns choke out the life. These are different from those which fell by the wayside. Those by the wayside never sprouted at all, but those in the rocky places and the thorns sprouted, just never grew to fruition. There was a start to life, but life quickly died. Dead plants produce no fruit.

Dead faith produces no works. It cannot be called a "saving" faith, because it is dead.

 

[handy]

And you've got to ask yourself - is Dora really having a vacation if she saw this thread? (thanks for popping in!)

I was just kind of lurking on the forum and ready to move on when I saw this thread and couldn't resist.

 

[Sam21]

Greetings,

First we have to understand Abraham, exactly what did Abraham do to be counted in righteousness.

God speaks and calls Abraham:

"Abraham!"

Abraham answers the call of God "Here I am"

Abraham is already working faith in God, right from the start, God calls Him and He answers God, "Here I am"

Then we have God command an action from Abraham:

"Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you"

Notice how Father says "whom you love" God mentions this because He is testing Abraham, do you love Me more than the son I gave you?

Abraham sets off right away the next morning to head to the land of Moriah.
He is doing work according to his faith, he is setting off to where God has commanded, he is faithfully working to where God has directed Him.

Now remember, God has promised Abraham, great seed and the land as an inheritance and Abraham has faith in God and believes He will make it so.

Now look here what Abraham speaks to the young men with him and Isaac:

"Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you."

Here is more faith in Abraham he tells the young men with them that "WE" will come back to you, God told Him to sacrifice his son, yet Abraham knows and has faith in God regarding the promise, so he tells the young men "WE" will come back, he knows in his heart he is not going to be sacrificing his son.
Also note that Abraham tells the men to stay, God did not command Abraham anyone else but his son Isaac to go with him, and he follows God's command.

Here is the promise from God regarding Isaac that God gave to Abraham:
"No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him"

Abraham is still working by faith and literally working to fullfill what God commands.

So now we go to the next coversation, which is between Isaac and his father Abraham:

"My father!" Isaac says,
"Here I am, my son." replies Abraham.
"Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?" Isaac ask's, and Abraham replies "My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering."

How close was Abraham to knowing God? close enough to know that God would provide the lamb for a burnt offering, which is also a shadow of Christ.

So Abraham readys the offering and is prepared when an angel of the LORD stops him and is given a ram for the offering.

Abraham follows the word of God even knowing God has commanded him againts what God had previously promised him, he follows every command even in the seemingly contradictory commands, because He has faith in God and does the works of that faith.
Not only does Abraham have great faith in God, he works to the command of God, literally fullfilling what God has asked him, by faith, Abraham is living faith and works together, as we are commanded, one is not fullfilled by the other, both must be working together, we cannot have faith and no works and we cannot have works with no faith, we must all work with faith.

Thats the faith and works of Abraham that God account to him in righteousness.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, but BEFORE the works, Abraham was ALREADY counted righteous by nothing but faith, and that is the key,Abraham was justified entirely by faith,however he had the right kind of faith and that became evident by his work. So Abraham was not counted righteous by faith and works but by faith, I conclude that James was simply striving to expose false faith by pointing out that the faith that made Abraham righteous had obedience to God with it(works).

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, but BEFORE the works, Abraham was ALREADY counted righteous by nothing but faith, and that is the key,Abraham was justified entirely by faith,however he had the right kind of faith and that became evident by his work. So Abraham was not counted righteous by faith and works but by faith, I conclude that James was simply striving to expose false faith by pointing out that the faith that made Abraham righteous had obedience to God with it(works).

"False" faith? Believing in God is not false, my friend. James HIMSELF says "you do well" to believe God. However, this faith, alone, does not save. James words are perfectly clear. Faith alone does not save. What more can be said???

Believing in God, although good, is not enough to save. Even the devil believes that God exists. A belief in God is not enough to save. It must have works added to it to save. That is the correct understanding of this scriptures. Remember, we are not talking about initial justification here. To enter heaven, one must have a faith working in love. For faith without love is NOTHING. (1 Cor 13:2) Do you think that "nothing" can save you for eternal life? No, and James makes that perfectly clear.

Regards

 

[warfrog]

"False" faith? Believing in God is not false, my friend. James HIMSELF says "you do well" to believe God. However, this faith, alone, does not save. James words are perfectly clear. Faith alone does not save. What more can be said???

Believing in God, although good, is not enough to save. Even the devil believes that God exists. A belief in God is not enough to save. It must have works added to it to save. That is the correct understanding of this scriptures. Remember, we are not talking about initial justification here. To enter heaven, one must have a faith working in love. For faith without love is NOTHING. (1 Cor 13:2) Do you think that "nothing" can save you for eternal life? No, and James makes that perfectly clear.

Regards

And so does Jesus's parable of the servants. Matthew 25: 14-30

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[WIP]

When we refuse to do the "good works", will that rebellion affect our salvation? If a "saved" person, with real, true faith does not show charity to a person in need, will this affect our justification? James says "yes". That is what these verses are about, not the "kind of faith" one must have.

I don't understand. How could anyone with true faith deny God by intentionally "refusing" to do the good works? To do this requires a lack of faith. A believer doesn't do good works in order to prove their faith but because of their faith. The faithful don't just believe in Jesus, they have surrendered their pride and let Jesus take control of their lives. The result is depicted in the good works they do. They let their light shine for all to see.

 

[TonkaTim]

Greetings,

First we have to understand Abraham, exactly what did Abraham do to be counted in righteousness.

God speaks and calls Abraham:

"Abraham!"

Abraham answers the call of God "Here I am"

Abraham is already working faith in God, right from the start, God calls Him and He answers God, "Here I am"

Then we have God command an action from Abraham:

"Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you"

Notice how Father says "whom you love" God mentions this because He is testing Abraham, do you love Me more than the son I gave you?

Abraham sets off right away the next morning to head to the land of Moriah.
He is doing work according to his faith, he is setting off to where God has commanded, he is faithfully working to where God has directed Him.

Now remember, God has promised Abraham, great seed and the land as an inheritance and Abraham has faith in God and believes He will make it so.

Now look here what Abraham speaks to the young men with him and Isaac:

"Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you."

Here is more faith in Abraham he tells the young men with them that "WE" will come back to you, God told Him to sacrifice his son, yet Abraham knows and has faith in God regarding the promise, so he tells the young men "WE" will come back, he knows in his heart he is not going to be sacrificing his son.
Also note that Abraham tells the men to stay, God did not command Abraham anyone else but his son Isaac to go with him, and he follows God's command.

Here is the promise from God regarding Isaac that God gave to Abraham:
"No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him"

Abraham is still working by faith and literally working to fullfill what God commands.

So now we go to the next coversation, which is between Isaac and his father Abraham:

"My father!" Isaac says,
"Here I am, my son." replies Abraham.
"Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?" Isaac ask's, and Abraham replies "My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering."

How close was Abraham to knowing God? close enough to know that God would provide the lamb for a burnt offering, which is also a shadow of Christ.

So Abraham readys the offering and is prepared when an angel of the LORD stops him and is given a ram for the offering.

Abraham follows the word of God even knowing God has commanded him againts what God had previously promised him, he follows every command even in the seemingly contradictory commands, because He has faith in God and does the works of that faith.
Not only does Abraham have great faith in God, he works to the command of God, literally fullfilling what God has asked him, by faith, Abraham is living faith and works together, as we are commanded, one is not fullfilled by the other, both must be working together, we cannot have faith and no works and we cannot have works with no faith, we must all work with faith.

Thats the faith and works of Abraham that God account to him in righteousness.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Warfrog,

Great exposition.

"we will come back to you"
Powerful, powerful words. No water what. "we will come back to you"

 

[warfrog]

Warfrog,

Great exposition.

"we will come back to you"
Powerful, powerful words. No water what. "we will come back to you"

Glory to the God! and glory to the Lamb of Salvation!

I have done no exposition but that of wihich God exposes, let us praise God.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[dadof10]

Romans 4 if Abraham were justified by works he has whereof to glory but not before God,for what says the scripture,Abraham BELIEVED God and it was COUNTED unto him for righteousness. To him that WORKS NOT but BELIEVES on Him that justifies the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness. Blessed the man whom the Lord imputes righteousness without works. The promise that Abraham should be the heir of the world through the righteousness of faith. Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace. Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The word of faith that we preach,that if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you shall be saved. Either James was contradicting Paul or else James did not actually mean that people are saved by works.

There is another option that you may want to consider, and the one I think is the most reasonable, taking all context into account. When Paul contrasts faith and works, he is PRIMARILY referring to works of the law. When James says we are justified by works he means primarily good deeds done in faith or charity.

If you have Bible software, do a search of the word "works", "work" and "deeds". In all places, save one, where Paul contrasts faith and works, it is DIRECTLY in the context of the Law, more specifically circumcision. Add to the mix Acts 15, and a pretty strong case can be made that "works" to Paul means "works of the law". Therefore there is no contradiction between Paul and James, but there is still a contradiction between James and Protestantism.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.