Faith without works........is Faith.

[FreeGrace]

Then I repeat:

Rev 21:7 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The key in that verse is the word "unbelieving".

The key is not "unbelieving". I think you are pulling the word out of context.

How can the word IN the text be "out of context"???

Unbelieving is one of the offenses and is mentioned along with several other things. IOW, we can say we are a believer but the verse is clear, if we do those other things, the outcome will not be good. The verse doesn't say, if we are a believer and do those things, you'll be fine....go for it.

So your view is that what Paul wrote about God's gifts being irrevocable didn't include eternal life, EVEN though Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God.

So, where, exactly, did Paul exclude the gift of eternal life from the irrevocable ones in Romans?

 

[FreeGrace]

What exactly do you think to "believe" means, to just *say* I believe?

It means exactly what it means: to believe. Everyone knows what they believe.

I'd say, among other things, it means to love Jesus, wouldn't you agree? so:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

No, I don't. Because I don't find your definition in ANY lexicon regarding "believe".

 

[reba]

The scripture says
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Is this a suggestion that Scripture contradicts itself? I know that eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable, so everything else must be understood in light of what Paul so clearly communicated.

The key to Rev 21:8 is "unbelieving". It's those who never received the free gift of eternal life.

That question would be about the same as me asking you why you dont believe the Words of the Lord as he speaks in The Revelation 21:8.

It is a simple difference of understanding..

 

[FreeGrace]

Often we read the covenant between God and Abraham as being unconditional.. IMO that is not what i read in the Scriptures.

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
God does not break His side of a His Covenant...

I'm not sure what any or all of this is trying to prove.

 

[FreeGrace]

For years i have been reading this battle.. The conclusion i have come too.
We are more saved then i was taught growing.. Sorta as in there is a difference between a slip and setting out to sin
But we can walk away from Him... As did the Children of Israel ...
Heb_13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Rev 21:7 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
some place between is a balance

Paul couldn't be more clear: eternal life is a gift of God, and God's gifts are irrevocable. That should be applied to EVERY verse that "seems to" teach loss of salvation.

If any verse did teach loss of salvation for any reason, then the Bible is contradicted an that is just as bad as if Christ wasn't resurrected; our faith is in vain either way.

I will never accept such an idea.

 

[FreeGrace]

Simon the Sorcerer "believed" but did not really believe (Acts 8:9-24). He was a false professor, and there can be many false professors.

The Bible says he believed. It doesn't say he "believed" <wink, wink>. Let's not read into God's Word that isn't there.

 

[FreeGrace]

The scripture says
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



That question would be about the same as me asking you why you dont believe the Words of the Lord as he speaks in The Revelation 21:8.

It is a simple difference of understanding..

If Rev 21:8 teaches loss of salvation, then what in the world was Paul teaching about eternal life and God's gifts being irrevocable?

Or, where did Paul clearly and specifically exclude eternal life from the gifts he said were irrevocable?

 

[reba]

If Rev 21:8 teaches loss of salvation, then what in the world was Paul teaching about eternal life and God's gifts being irrevocable?

Or, where did Paul clearly and specifically exclude eternal life from the gifts he said were irrevocable?

Verse 21 8 of The Revelation simply says
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Your question involves a Christian. I'll assume the definition according to Scripture. In that case, he goes to heaven. Probably his heart attack was God's divine discipline, per 1 Cor 11:30. And he loses whatever eternal rewards he had earned up to that point. 2 Jn 8 -
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. KJV
Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. NASB
Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. NIV

It think it's clear that believers CAN lose those things that they have worked for, and may not be rewarded fully as a result.

If one believes that lying will lose one's salvation, then no one ever will go to heaven. Because no one has never not lied. And if that list of sins In Rev 21:8 results in loss of salvation, then we're all done.

Christ died for all sin. Therefore, sin cannot be the issue for ending up in hell. The only reason people will be cast into the lake of fire is because their names were not in the book of life (Rev 20:15). Meaning, they did not possess eternal life.

And we know that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

And we know that no one yet has shown that Paul meant to exclude the gift of eternal life from God's gifts that are irrevocable.

Great question, btw.

 

[Deborah13]

Or, where did Paul clearly and specifically exclude eternal life from the gifts he said were irrevocable?

Rom 11:29 for unrepented of are the gifts and the calling of God;

Context.....
Rom 11:28 As regards, indeed, the good tidings, they [the nation of Israel] are enemies on your [all the other nations] account; and as regards the choice--beloved on account of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for unrepented of are the gifts and the calling of God;
Rom 11:30 for as ye [all the other nations] also once did not believe in God, and now did find kindness by the unbelief of these [the nation of Israel]:
Rom 11:31 so also these [the nation of Israel] now did not believe, that in your [all the other nations] kindness they [the nation of Israel] also may find kindness;
Rom 11:32 for God did shut up together the [nation of Israel as a] whole to unbelief, that to [all the other nations as a ] whole He might do kindness.

Paul cannot possibly be talking about individuals, because we know that Not ALL the children of Israel have been saved down through the centuries, but more importantly we absolutely, positively know, that Not ALL the children of Israel were/have been shut up in unbelief.
I don't see how we can take a scripture so far out of the context, and say Paul is talking about gifts given to individual people.
God called the nation of Israel, later He called all the other nations.

How do you explain this verse that I believe refutes your understanding of Romans 11:29? I have seen where you have done that yet, unless I missed it.
Heb 10:14 for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;
.......
Heb 10:18 and where forgiveness of these is , there is no more offering for sin.
.......
Heb 10:22 may we draw near with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, having the hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and having the body bathed with pure water;
Heb 10:23 may we hold fast the unwavering profession of the hope, (for faithful is He who did promise),
.......
Heb 10:26 For we--wilfully [G1596] sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth--no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice, [G1596 - to sin wilfully as opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness]
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;
......
Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment shall he be counted worthy who the Son of God did trample on, and the blood of the covenant did count a common thing, in which he was sanctified, and to the Spirit of the grace did despite?

To me this is talking about someone who became apostate and I believe, only God knows if one is.
Could you answer to that with scripture?

 

[Kenny_ms]

I'd say, among other things, it means to love Jesus, wouldn't you agree? so:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

No, I don't. Because I don't find your definition in ANY lexicon regarding "believe".

I see, then loving Jesus is not part of believing in him...got it

 

[MarkT]

This forum REQUIRES one to cite Scripture when making a claim. I see no verse to support your claim.

I cited Mt. 7:21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

In fact, Jesus REFUTES your claim that He didn't teach that one HAVE eternal life WHEN they believe.

John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Very clear; believes…HAS eternal life.

No. He said he who hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life. It's he who hears his word and believes. So it's not believes ... has eternal life. You have to hear or read his word and believe the Father who sent him. So reading Mt. 7:21, Jesus said it is he who does the will of my Father. This is the word the Father gave him. This word came from the Father and we believe HIM. So this applies to all of Jesus' teaching including the teaching that says 'he who hears my word' John 5:24

He never described any of that crowd as believers. In fact, that's what they never did; believe in Him for eternal life.

If they had, their eternal life cannot be revoked per Rom 6:23 and 11:29.

Not everyone who says Lord, Lord to him shall enter the kingdom of heaven. Only believers would say Lord, Lord to him. Only believers would say they did mighty works in his name. Mt.7:22

What does this mean? Of course it is a promise. And God never breaks His promise. Irrevocable means exactly that.

I'm saying the promise can not be revoked. The covenant God made with Jacob can not be revoked. This does not have the same meaning as saying eternal life can not be revoked. Nevertheless, that is not what happens. Eternal life is not revoked. Rather men become spiritually dead for lack of water. This is what Jesus said, 'If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:6 So it's not that eternal life is revoked; it's that the man is dead inside. That is why he is thrown into the fire and burned.

Another dogmatic statement yet without any Scripture. There are many religious people today who easily call Him Lord yet reject the idea that He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it.

Never heard of such a thing. Nevertheless, Jesus was saying when he returns many will say Lord, Lord to him. Mt. 7:22

The crowd in Matt 7:21-23.

The crowd viewed him as Lord but not as Saviour? Where do you get that idea?

btw, when that day occurs in Matt 7:21, ALL will call Him Lord, because all unbelievers will be before the Great White Throne and everyone will clearly understand who is in charge.

In fact, the Bible says that "every knee will bow" before Him. Isa 45:23 and Phil 2:10.

But unbelievers will not say they prophesied in his name. They will not say they cast out demons in his name. No unbeliever will say they did mighty works in his name. Only believers will say they did those things. And Jesus will say, I never knew you; depart from me, you evil doers. Mt. 7:22-23

 

[FreeGrace]

Verse 21 8 of The Revelation simply says
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Yes, I know what it says. But I had said this: "If Rev 21:8 teaches loss of salvation, then what in the world was Paul teaching about eternal life and God's gifts being irrevocable?

Or, where did Paul clearly and specifically exclude eternal life from the gifts he said were irrevocable?"

You've ignored the clear message of Romans 6:23 with Rom 11:29.

 

[FreeGrace]

Rom 11:29 for unrepented of are the gifts and the calling of God;

This is a very awkward sentence. I believe the NASB makes it very clear: "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Do you disagree with the NASB? It's much more clear than what you cited.

Context.....
Rom 11:28 As regards, indeed, the good tidings, they [the nation of Israel] are enemies on your [all the other nations] account; and as regards the choice--beloved on account of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for unrepented of are the gifts and the calling of God;
Rom 11:30 for as ye [all the other nations] also once did not believe in God, and now did find kindness by the unbelief of these [the nation of Israel]:
Rom 11:31 so also these [the nation of Israel] now did not believe, that in your [all the other nations] kindness they [the nation of Israel] also may find kindness;
Rom 11:32 for God did shut up together the [nation of Israel as a] whole to unbelief, that to [all the other nations as a ] whole He might do kindness.

Paul cannot possibly be talking about individuals, because we know that Not ALL the children of Israel have been saved down through the centuries, but more importantly we absolutely, positively know, that Not ALL the children of Israel were/have been shut up in unbelief.
I don't see how we can take a scripture so far out of the context, and say Paul is talking about gifts given to individual people.

Why not? It was Paul himself who defined what he meant by 'gifts' earlier in Romans. What makes one think that he wasn't referring to those he already identified as gifts, such as spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, and eternal life in 6:23.

God called the nation of Israel, later He called all the other nations.

Yes, the calling of Israel is in view in Romans 11:29. But their calling is never called or defined as a gift. So this doesn't address the entire point of v.29.

How do you explain this verse that I believe refutes your understanding of Romans 11:29? I have seen where you have done that yet, unless I missed it.

There i nothing in Romans 11 prior to v.29 that defines 'gift'. In fact, Paul never uses the word for 'gift' between Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29. Why should one think that Paul wasn't referring to what he already defined as gifts earlier in the epistle?

Heb 10:14 for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;
.......
Heb 10:18 and where forgiveness of these is , there is no more offering for sin.
.......
Heb 10:22 may we draw near with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, having the hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and having the body bathed with pure water;
Heb 10:23 may we hold fast the unwavering profession of the hope, (for faithful is He who did promise),
.......
Heb 10:26 For we--wilfully [G1596] sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth--no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice, [G1596 - to sin wilfully as opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness]
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;
......
Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment shall he be counted worthy who the Son of God did trample on, and the blood of the covenant did count a common thing, in which he was sanctified, and to the Spirit of the grace did despite?

To me this is talking about someone who became apostate and I believe, only God knows if one is.
Could you answer to that with scripture?

I agree that these verses in Heb may refer to apostates, but I don't understand what these verses have to do with God's gifts being irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'd say, among other things, it means to love Jesus, wouldn't you agree? so:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

No, I don't. Because I don't find your definition in ANY lexicon regarding "believe".

I see, then loving Jesus is not part of believing in him...got it

Just check a lexicon on what "believe" means. Or, since it appears there isn't one available for your study, I'll provide the definition.
pisteuō

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing

Nothing here about love.

 

[FreeGrace]

I cited Mt. 7:21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

We know what the will of His Father is: John 6:40 - 0“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

No. He said he who hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life. It's he who hears his word and believes. So it's not believes ... has eternal life.

Uh, one must hear the Word before one can believe. And those who believe HAVE eternal life.

You have to hear or read his word and believe the Father who sent him. So reading Mt. 7:21, Jesus said it is he who does the will of my Father.

Yep. John 6:40 tells us what the will of the Father is.

I'm saying the promise can not be revoked. The covenant God made with Jacob can not be revoked. This does not have the same meaning as saying eternal life can not be revoked.

It most certainly IS. And I'll explain why: because Paul himself defined what he meant by 'gift' before he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. So, within the context of his letter to the Romans, Paul defined 'gift' for us. So when he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable, we KNOW EXACTLY what he was referring to.

Nevertheless, that is not what happens. Eternal life is not revoked. Rather men become spiritually dead for lack of water.

This is totally unbiblical. The Bible teaches that we are born spiritually dead. No one becomes spiritually dead.

btw, your view that one "becomes spiritually dead" means that eternal life can die. Such a thing makes the meaning of the word 'eternal' meaningless. If eternal life can die, then it certainly can't be eternal, huh.

This is what Jesus said, 'If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:6 So it's not that eternal life is revoked; it's that the man is dead inside. That is why he is thrown into the fire and burned.

Nope. Jesus made an agricultural metaphor that those in that economy would readily understand. A branch that isn't productive is unuseful to the farmer, so he cuts it off the tree and casts it aside. The point that Jesus was making was about being productive for God. That's why He said this: 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. John 15:4,5

And in the previous verse, v.3, Jesus said this: "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you." Here, Jesus tells them plainly that they were saved. Only THEN did He make a point about being productive.

He certainly didn't tell them that their salvation was dependent upon their production.

The crowd viewed him as Lord but not as Saviour? Where do you get that idea?

From them. By what they said. What did they base their entrance into the kingdom on? Works, not faith.

But unbelievers will not say they prophesied in his name.

This is naive. Just think of any religious organization or demonination that believes they are saved by their works. While the RCC does mention faith in Christ, they also add keeping the sacraments and other things to be saved. And they don't teach eternal security.

 

[reba]

Yes, I know what it says. But I had said this: "If Rev 21:8 teaches loss of salvation, then what in the world was Paul teaching about eternal life and God's gifts being irrevocable?

Or, where did Paul clearly and specifically exclude eternal life from the gifts he said were irrevocable?"

You've ignored the clear message of Romans 6:23 with Rom 11:29.

His Word says Romans 6:23 and Ronamns 11:29

Yes you said what you said But you are not God..

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
again i say we just see some Scripture differently.. a balance of understanding is needed... the Scriptures do not contradict themselves ... The OSAS cop out answer to this type of dilemma is some thing like "well they were never saved"... Which is nothing more then judging another's salvation .

I do thank the many for bringing this topic into some focus for me..

 

[MarkT]

We know what the will of His Father is: John 6:40 - 0“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Right. But did you hear what he said in Mt. 7:21? He said 'he who does the will of my Father'. That's who shall enter the kingdom. Did you hear that? What does believing in him mean if you only hear what you want to hear?

Uh, one must hear the Word before one can believe. And those who believe HAVE eternal life.

So he who hears his word and believes the Father who sent him, has passed from death to life. As long as you understand the 'he who hears his word' part, because Jesus said, "He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” John 14:21

It most certainly IS. And I'll explain why: because Paul himself defined what he meant by 'gift' before he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. So, within the context of his letter to the Romans, Paul defined 'gift' for us. So when he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable, we KNOW EXACTLY what he was referring to

.

Irrevocable as a promise according to the covenant God made with Jacob. But to receive the gifts, the Jews have to show mercy that they may receive mercy. Romans 11:31 This is not the same as saying you can't lose something as you are implying.

This is totally unbiblical. The Bible teaches that we are born spiritually dead. No one becomes spiritually dead.

btw, your view that one "becomes spiritually dead" means that eternal life can die. Such a thing makes the meaning of the word 'eternal' meaningless. If eternal life can die, then it certainly can't be eternal, huh.

I didn't say eternal life can die. I said the man is dead; there is no life in him. Life is life. All living things require food and water or they wither and die.

Nope. Jesus made an agricultural metaphor that those in that economy would readily understand. A branch that isn't productive is unuseful to the farmer, so he cuts it off the tree and casts it aside. The point that Jesus was making was about being productive for God. That's why He said this: 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. John 15:4,5

Really? So how is it you understand? The point is dead branches are broken off. Nobody breaks off living branches. Dead branches are burned. That's the point. Did you hear the word? They are burned.

This is naive. Just think of any religious organization or demonination that believes they are saved by their works. While the RCC does mention faith in Christ, they also add keeping the sacraments and other things to be saved. And they don't teach eternal security.

I'm not interested in going off on a tangent. I'm talking about Mt. 7:21-23 Jesus said many will say they did mighty works in his name. Jesus could not be referring to unbelievers.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Just check a lexicon on what "believe" means. Or, since it appears there isn't one available for your study, I'll provide the definition.

I think it may be better to consider with your heart what it means to "believe in Jesus". But if you want to simply define "believe" I have no doubt definitions won't include "loving Jesus" as a part of believing in him.

However, this not something I wil bother to argue. Sometimes some things just seem so obvious to us, we will never let go of that idea, no matter what and that's how I feel about this, but for all I know, it's just as obvious to you believing in Jesus does *not" equate to "loving him" as I believe it does. I respect the personal conclusion you draw and we just disagree.

 

[FreeGrace]

His Word says Romans 6:23 and Ronamns 11:29

Yes you said what you said But you are not God..

Why would anyone say this? Of course I'm not. But I HAVE quoted God's Word. That is the issue.

I do thank the many for bringing this topic into some focus for me..

I'm not sure what your view is. However, I do believe the words of Jesus Himself should be plenty important.

In John 4:14 Jesus said this: but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

The Greek word for "drinks" is an aorist subjunctive. For those anti-OSAS folk who claim that one is saved ONLY AS LONG AS they continue to believe, the aorist tense means "in a point in time". There is no aspect of time in the aorist tense. It's like a photo, unlike a video, which does record a time aspect. And notice, "whoever drinks" a metaphor for believing, "shall never thirst", and becomes a well for eternal life.

Further, In John 6:51, Jesus said this: “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

Here, the word for "eats" is also an aorist subjunctive. And what is the result of this "point in time eating"? Jesus was clear: "he will live forever".

Or this from Jesus, in John 10:28 - 8and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

I would suggest that "never perish" is a very long time.

 

[FreeGrace]

Right. But did you hear what he said in Mt. 7:21? He said 'he who does the will of my Father'. That's who shall enter the kingdom. Did you hear that? What does believing in him mean if you only hear what you want to hear?

I've already pointed out exactly what the will of His Father is; stated very clearly in John 6:40 - “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” This is what that crowd in Matt 7 never did. Which is why they were denied entrance into the kingdom.

I didn't say eternal life can die. I said the man is dead; there is no life in him. Life is life. All living things require food and water or they wither and die.

How can a man be "dead" IF he has previously been given eternal life? Seems my point was totally missed.

Really? So how is it you understand? The point is dead branches are broken off. Nobody breaks off living branches. Dead branches are burned. That's the point. Did you hear the word? They are burned.

Again, I explained this. Jesus used an agricultural metaphor. His point was about productivity, not getting saved.

I'm not interested in going off on a tangent. I'm talking about Mt. 7:21-23 Jesus said many will say they did mighty works in his name. Jesus could not be referring to unbelievers.

In your opinion. They didn't do the will of God, which is found in John 6:40. That is the ONLY REASON people won't get into the kingdom.