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Faith without works........is Faith.

(Post removed; Failure to follow A&T Guideline "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies" and failure to follow staff's request in post #550 above. Obadiah.)
 
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JLB said:
Disconnect from Him and you have disconnected from the eternal life that He provides to each of us who believe.
JLB
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Except that this notion is NOT found in Scripture. That one has the "power" to disconnect from the Power Source. Esp since Jesus made very clear that we (those who have believed) are held by the Father (Jn 10:28), not the other way around, as your opinion insinuates.

Believers can be disobedient and even quit believing. And there are serious consequences for that. But loss of salvation isn't one of them.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Yes, somehow eternal life in OSAS is also NOT knowing Jesus Christ, in direct contradiction to scripture:

"3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. " (John 17:3 NASB)

It takes OSAS to help us see that it isn't just knowing him that is eternal life, as one might assume from this verse by simply reading it.
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Some people simply refuse to accept the truth that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23), just like justification is a gift (Rom 5:15,16,17), and that God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

But it's still true.
 
FreeGrace said:
Except that this notion is NOT found in Scripture. That one has the "power" to disconnect from the Power Source. Esp since Jesus made very clear that we (those who have believed) are held by the Father (Jn 10:28), not the other way around, as your opinion insinuates.

Believers can be disobedient and even quit believing. And there are serious consequences for that. But loss of salvation isn't one of them.
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Disconnect from Christ and you disconnect from the eternal life that flows from Him...

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Like a branch that receives life from the Vine it is connected to.

Eternal life is knowing God, and Jesus Christ.

Disconnect from Him and you have disconnected from the Eternal Life that comes from Him.

Know Jesus know life!

No Jesus, No life


JLB
 
JLB said:
Disconnect from Christ and you disconnect from the eternal life that flows from Him…
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This statement has yet to be proven from Scripture. otoh, that eternal life IS irrevocable HAS been proven from Scripture. But we're all free to choose truth or error.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Like a branch that receives life from the Vine it is connected to.
Eternal life is knowing God, and Jesus Christ.
Disconnect from Him and you have disconnected from the Eternal Life that comes from Him.
Know Jesus know life!
No Jesus, No lifeJLB
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The disconnect is that this view is disconnected from what Scripture SAYS. Eternal life is irrevocable (Rom 6:23-Rom 11:29). God holds onto the believer (Jn 10:28), not the other way around, as your view insinuates.

Nothing in the future can separate the saved person from the love of Christ, per Rom 8:38.

There are no exceptions in any of these passages, which your view demands.

Making claims repeatedly does not make them come true. Truth is found in Scripture.
 
FreeGrace said:
This statement has yet to be proven from Scripture. otoh, that eternal life IS irrevocable HAS been proven from Scripture. But we're all free to choose truth or error.


The disconnect is that this view is disconnected from what Scripture SAYS. Eternal life is irrevocable (Rom 6:23-Rom 11:29). God holds onto the believer (Jn 10:28), not the other way around, as your view insinuates.

Nothing in the future can separate the saved person from the love of Christ, per Rom 8:38.

There are no exceptions in any of these passages, which your view demands.

Making claims repeatedly does not make them come true. Truth is found in Scripture.
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If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

I see that you don't understand what abide means.

Abide = remain; connected in relationship.

Just as the branch that Jesus described in His teaching, withers and dies and is thrown into the fire, because it's source of life has been removed, so do those who do not continue to remain in Him, as their source of Eternal life, they to will die, as their source of Eternal life has been disconnected from them.

Now if you can show me a scripture that teaches us, that we can have Eternal Life apart from Jesus Christ, then please share it now.


JLB


 
JLB said:
Now if you can show me a scripture that teaches us, that we can have Eternal Life apart from Jesus Christ, then please share it now.
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Why would there be any such verse? The Bible teaches clearly that the Holy Spirit seals everyone who believes IN CHRIST, sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13 with 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 with 5:5.

The Holy Spirit IS the seal. Who is powerful enough to break the Holy Spirit? [Unnecessary personal comment. ToS 2.4]

Jesus said basically the same thing in John 10:28. The Father holds on to His children and no one is strong enough to remove God's children from His hand.

The fallacy in your view is that one has the power to remove themselves from God's hand. Yet there is no verse that teaches that, and in fact, verses that teach the EXACT opposite of that.

[Again.]
 
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JLB said:
Amen!

God will even love us in hell, because not even hell can separate us from the love of God.


JLB
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Nonsense. Those who have been given the gift of eternal life cannot lose it because it is irrevocable.

Where is the proof or at least evidence that Paul had excluded the gift of eternal life from Rom 6:23 in God's gifts that are irrevocable in Rom 11:29? You've not provided any so why should anyone believe that he wasn't including eternal life in God's gifts that are irrevocable?
 
JLB said:
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Does the phrase Eternal life appear in this scripture?
JLB
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I wonder how many conditional security folk realize just how damaging this kind of argument is to their own view?

While "eternal life" doesn't appear in Rom 11:29, Paul HAD already defined the word 'gifts' for us, so we don't have to assume anything, or make up anything. He identified spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification as a gift in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, and eternal life as a gift of God in 6:23. The VERY NEXT use of 'gift' is found in 11:29, which forms the basis of understanding of what Paul meant by gift in 11:29. There is assuming about it.

otoh, your "challenge" that the words "eternal life" don't appear in Rom 11:29 is a shot into your own foot. Why? Because NONE of the warning passages that the conditional security folk use as their "proof texts" for loss of salvation do NOT have either "salvation" or "eternal life" in ANY of them. And there is NO CONTEXT for trying to force those words into the passages.

So, context supports my claim, while refuting your claim.
 
FreeGrace said:
Why would there be any such verse? The Bible teaches clearly that the Holy Spirit seals everyone who believes IN CHRIST, sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13 with 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 with 5:5.

The Holy Spirit IS the seal. Who is powerful enough to break the Holy Spirit? [Unnecessary personal comment. ToS 2.4]

Jesus said basically the same thing in John 10:28. The Father holds on to His children and no one is strong enough to remove God's children from His hand.

The fallacy in your view is that one has the power to remove themselves from God's hand. Yet there is no verse that teaches that, and in fact, verses that teach the EXACT opposite of that.

[Again.]
Click to expand...

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Now if you can show me a scripture that teaches us, that we can have Eternal Life apart from Jesus Christ, then please share it.

Please show us the scripture that teaches that we have eternal life apart from Jesus Christ.

Jesus clearly taught us that we must abide, that is, remain connected in relationship to Him, or we would wither and die, just like a branch that does not abide in the vine...


JLB
 
FreeGrace said:
I wonder how many conditional security folk realize just how damaging this kind of argument is to their own view?

While "eternal life" doesn't appear in Rom 11:29, Paul HAD already defined the word 'gifts' for us, so we don't have to assume anything, or make up anything. He identified spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification as a gift in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, and eternal life as a gift of God in 6:23. The VERY NEXT use of 'gift' is found in 11:29, which forms the basis of understanding of what Paul meant by gift in 11:29. There is assuming about it.

otoh, your "challenge" that the words "eternal life" don't appear in Rom 11:29 is a shot into your own foot. Why? Because NONE of the warning passages that the conditional security folk use as their "proof texts" for loss of salvation do NOT have either "salvation" or "eternal life" in ANY of them. And there is NO CONTEXT for trying to force those words into the passages.

So, context supports my claim, while refuting your claim.
Click to expand...


For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Does the phrase Eternal life appear in this scripture?

Yes or No?

JLB
 
FreeGrace said:
Why would there be any such verse? The Bible teaches clearly that the Holy Spirit seals everyone who believes IN CHRIST, sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13 with 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 with 5:5.

The Holy Spirit IS the seal. Who is powerful enough to break the Holy Spirit? [Unnecessary personal comment. ToS 2.4]

Jesus said basically the same thing in John 10:28. The Father holds on to His children and no one is strong enough to remove God's children from His hand.

The fallacy in your view is that one has the power to remove themselves from God's hand. Yet there is no verse that teaches that, and in fact, verses that teach the EXACT opposite of that.

[Again.]
Click to expand...

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

The scriptures warn us not to depart from God...

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:12-13

Jesus clearly exhorted us to abide, or remain in Him.

A person can in fact depart from the living God, in a state of unbelief.


JLB
 
JLB said:
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Now if you can show me a scripture that teaches us, that we can have Eternal Life apart from Jesus Christ, then please share it.

Please show us the scripture that teaches that we have eternal life apart from Jesus Christ.

Jesus clearly taught us that we must abide, that is, remain connected in relationship to Him, or we would wither and die, just like a branch that does not abide in the vine...
JLB
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Simple question: which warning passage includes the words "salvation" or "etenral life" in them?
 
JLB said:
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

The scriptures warn us not to depart from God...

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:12-13

Jesus clearly exhorted us to abide, or remain in Him.

A person can in fact depart from the living God, in a state of unbelief.
JLB
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Yes, which does NOT prove or even suggest that one can depart from their gift of eternal life. When Jesus told us that God holds His children in His hand, He was speaking of our security in Him. He holds us and our salvation. Nothing less makes any sense.
So even when the believer departs, God is still holding on to their salvation.

The concept of both abiding in and departing from is about fellowship, not relationship.

Can you separate yourself from either of your birth parents? By that, I mean to undo the birth relationship? Of course you can't. No one can. The same is true in the spiritual sense. We are birthed by God. He is our spiritual birth Father. That cannot change.

Can you break fellowship with either of your birth parents? Of course, anyone can. But they are still your birth parents.

iow, the relationship cannot be broken, but the fellowship can.

Because all who have believed ARE God's children (Jn 1:12), and have eternal life (Jn 5:24), all who have believed WILL BE with God for eternity. They cannot be cast into the lake of fire.

Or the Bible is full of lies.

Take your pick. It's that basic.
 
FreeGrace said:
Yes, which does NOT prove or even suggest that one can depart from their gift of eternal life.
Click to expand...

Please just post the scripture whereby we have eternal life apart from Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Jesus clearly taught us that we must abide, that is, remain connected in relationship to Him, or we would wither and die, just like a branch that does not abide in the vine...

Eternal life does not come from a religion called Christianity or from something...

Eternal Life comes from Someone, and His name is Jesus.

If we are not connected to Him and the Life that comes from Him, then we have no access to Eternal Life.


JLB
 
FreeGrace said:
Can you break fellowship with either of your birth parents? Of course, anyone can. But they are still your birth parents.
Click to expand...


God the Father is the Father of all spirits.

Satan [the devil] and his fallen angels also have God as their Father, just like every human being...

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Having God as his Father, will not prevent Satan from being cast into the lake of fire.


JLB
 
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