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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Faith without works........is Faith.
- Thread starter Kidron
- Start date
Obadiah
Member
Not necessarily only directed at the above poster.
From the A&T guidelines: "Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting." Just using a different phrase that still means the same thing does not bring you into compliance with this rule. Let's back away from the bickering and return to the discussion of whether or not faith without works is still faith. This is NOT a OSAS/non-OSAS debate. If this can't be done, we can close the thread. Maybe 600 posts still with no conclusion is enough?
From the A&T guidelines: "Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting." Just using a different phrase that still means the same thing does not bring you into compliance with this rule. Let's back away from the bickering and return to the discussion of whether or not faith without works is still faith. This is NOT a OSAS/non-OSAS debate. If this can't be done, we can close the thread. Maybe 600 posts still with no conclusion is enough?
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24
JLB
This is what the bible plainly says.
Of course the works that James refers to is obedience, as he qualifies this in the example he gives.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
Unlike the works of the law, by faith, Abraham obeyed the Voice of God, when he was commanded to offer Issac his son on the altar.
JLB
I must be feeling generous or extra tolerant this morning. I normally would not do this because questioning moderator action on the open boards is a violation of our ToS 1.3. But, perhaps answering this question on the open boards may be beneficial to others who seem to struggle with this question, so I will answer in kind.
First, disagreement does not constitute a lie and posting a few verses that support your view does not necessarily "clearly" refute your opponents' views rendering their posts with Scriptural support fruitless. You are both Christian. Claiming one is lying is a violation of the ToS 2.4. In your next post you did exactly as you should with one exception. Here, I'll quote it the way you should have posted it.
It doesn't matter what the Catholic church teaches in this discussion so the statement I have grayed out is irrelevant, off topic, and only serves to antagonize your opponent(s). Just respond with the appropriate support that has you questioning your opponent's view. Now, the two of you can dig and rightly divide the Word of God.
This forum is not about who can verbally outwit his opponent. It is about digging into Scripture to grow in faith and understanding. You are not arguing with a belligerent non-believer who's only purpose is to discredit your faith. You are debating your differing views about what Scripture has to say. It's understandable for both parties to stand firm as we are instructed not to be wishy-washy in our faith, "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine" (eph. 4:14 NKJV) We must also remember that none of us is infallible and we are also instructed to bear with each other in love and respect...
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
(col. 3:12-17 NKJV)
I hope that helps.
Jethro Bodine
Member
This is what it means for works to be necessary for salvation:
"the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. " (1 John 3:10 NASB)
Works are necessary for salvation, not because they, along with faith, make you righteous, but because people made righteous by faith apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB) do righteous things. And the person who has not been made righteous by faith apart from works does not do righteous things, and continues in his unchanged sinful life.
The righteous things a person does is how we know they belong to God through faith in Jesus Christ. That is why works must accompany faith. The one who has no change of nature attached to his faith doesn't have the faith that justifies apart from works. Though he may claim to. James says, "show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB italics mine).
"Faith without works is........Faith" is true, of course. It is a faith that is alone, absent of works. What we are discussing are the implications of that. And what the Bible says is the person who only has faith, not practicing righteousness nor loving his brother, is not of God. Therefore, works must accompany a salvation secured by faith all by itself apart from works.
It is a faith that is alone, absent of works...that is declared dead, by the scriptures.
It is by the action of the obedience of faith, that is necessary for Salvation, as Paul writes -
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." Romans 10:9-11
We see here that believing is associated with the action of confessing Jesus as Lord.
The message of God's Kingdom is repent, and believe the Gospel.
Repent means to turn to God, Who is the King of the kingdom of God.
Like the example that James gives us; You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
The example is clear, the servants of the kingdom of darkness believe in God, but since they have not turned to God in obedience [repent], their believing all by itself can not save them.
JLB
dadof10
Member
Yes, Peter specifically says water baptism saves. Also, you are confusing Paul's "works of the law" and James' "good deeds". Water baptism and communion are not what Paul is talking about. These are not "works". If you disagree, just point me to the verses that tie baptism and communion to "works".
Jethro Bodine
Member
So now 'confess with your mouth' IS a work, despite what you said here:
This duplicity is why I will not be engaging your doctrine in any future discussions.
Justification (being MADE righteous in God's sight) is solely through the forgiveness of sins, apart from the merit of righteous deeds. Believing is how we access the forgiveness that does the justifying all by itself (Romans 5:2 NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:5-7 NASB)
" God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus" (2 Timothy 1:8-9 NAS)
Paul does not contrast the doing of 'our works', and 'deeds which we have done in righteousness' with other things we do to be saved, but rather contrasts the doing of something with God's grace and mercy. God's mercy and grace in the forgiving our sins is the ONLY thing that can make a person righteous. Unrighteousness can not be removed through the power of doing anything righteous (except believing, of course). If their was something you could do that made you righteous before God then Christ died for nothing, or Christ's death by itself is not powerful enough or sufficient in and of itself to remove sin guilt.
People who have the sufficiency of Christ for justification then do righteous things because the faith that saves all by itself is the faith that changes an unrighteous person into a righteous person who then does righteous things. The argument for works being necessary for salvation meaning if they don't do righteous things then they simply do not have the faith that justifies all by itself.
My point is to show the work of obedience, working together with faith, to produce a divine result.
James says - ...faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
I believe what he is saying and see the work of obedience in the Gospel message in the action of repentance, which is turning to God.
Confess with your mouth, is an act of obedience, [yet not a deed that earns] that satisfies this principle within the law of faith that requires obedience working together with faith.
When an unbeliever who is under the dominion of his lord Satan, hears the Gospel from a person sent by the Lord, faith is produced by hearing, and the act of turning to God which is manifested by confessing Jesus as Lord, actively employs the power working abilities in the Gospel unto salvation.
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9
God Himself believed in His heart that there would be light, but in wasn't until He said the words "Let there be light" that light appeared.
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
Genesis 1:1-4
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. Hebrews 11:3
Paul teaches us this principle of faith: For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13
JLB
The Bible clearly teaches we are saved by faith, apart from works.
"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9
Again, "you have been saved through faith…not from yourselves…not by works". It could not be any more clear than that.
Notice that there are NO VERSEs that say we are saved by faith AND works, or faith PLUS works, or any other wording to include works in salvation.
dadof10
Member
Please define what you mean by the word "works". Does it mean everything done, or does it have a more specific definition?
Paul didn't define it in Eph, but he did give us a way to understand what he means by works or work. In Rom 4:4, he said: Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation."
A work is anything that one would do in order to earn God's salvation. Which can't be earned. I hope this helps.
Amen. We are saved by faith...and not by works!
What we are discussing is what faith is, and how faith can be dead and ineffective.
In addition we are discussing what it means to obey the Gospel, and how obedience is crucial to a living active faith.
With that said, do you consider confessing with your mouth a work?
JLB
James wrote about the FACT that if one isn't demonstrating their faith by works, they have an ineffective testimony as a Christian.
No. Why would anyone think that?
Paul made the point that a work is anything that creates a debt owed. No different than the paychecks that one earns at work. And he also pointed out that faith is by grace, NOT by work. iow, faith does not create a debt. Further, the Bible defines salvation as a gift (Eph 2:8), as well as eternal life (Rom 6:23).
Therefore, when God saves a person who has believed, He isn't "paying" them for any work.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26
Faith without the work of obedience is dead and can not save.
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
Are demons saved though they believe?
JLB