Faith without works........is Faith.

[JLB]

No. Why would anyone think that?

Paul made the point that a work is anything that creates a debt owed. No different than the paychecks that one earns at work. And he also pointed out that faith is by grace, NOT by work. iow, faith does not create a debt. Further, the Bible defines salvation as a gift (Eph 2:8), as well as eternal life (Rom 6:23).

Therefore, when God saves a person who has believed, He isn't "paying" them for any work.

Turning to God is a command of the Gospel; Repent and believe the Gospel.

Repent means to turn to God.

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18

We are commanded to turn to God SO THAT we may receive the forgiveness of sins.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


Those that turn to God then later turn away or depart from God or , have disobeyed the Gospel and are called hypocrites, as they no longer believe.

This isn't referring to people who are growing in Christ, and struggle with sin for a season or people who stumble and get back up, this is a reference to people who turn from God, as in the case of Jews who believe for a while, then turn back to Judaism... or people who live openly in sexual immorality, or idolatry and are warned about it, yet they continue and never repent.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


JLB

 

[dadof10]

Paul didn't define it in Eph, but he did give us a way to understand what he means by works or work. In Rom 4:4, he said: Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation."

A work is anything that one would do in order to earn God's salvation. Which can't be earned. I hope this helps.

I agree. So, an action performed by a person purely out of love for God, with no expectation of reward attached, would not fit into the category of "works"? Take infant baptism. The baby is saved by the act of baptism, but does NOTHING to earn it and has no expectation of reward. It is pure Grace. Would you exclude this action from Paul's "works"?

 

[JLB]

I agree. So, an action performed by a person purely out of love for God, with no expectation of reward attached, would not fit into the category of "works"? Take infant baptism. The baby is saved by the act of baptism, but does NOTHING to earn it and has no expectation of reward. It is pure Grace. Would you exclude this action from Paul's "works"?

How can an infant, be saved by what his or her parents do, and is not part of choosing to believe?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26
Faith without the work of obedience is dead and can not save.

The question is always: "saved from what?" Hell is certainly NOT in view here. What is clearly in view throughout ch 2 and 3 is hypocrisy.

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!

Is anyone saved by believing in Monotheism? No. This has nothing to do with saving faith.

Are demons saved though they believe?JLB

No one is saved by believing that God is One.

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree. So, an action performed by a person purely out of love for God, with no expectation of reward attached, would not fit into the category of "works"?

Whether one is cognizant of God's promises or not, ignorance is no excuse. God has already promised reward for obedience and faithfulness.

Take infant baptism.

Or leave it.

The baby is saved by the act of baptism, but does NOTHING to earn it and has no expectation of reward. It is pure Grace. Would you exclude this action from Paul's "works"?

Why should anyone think that anyone is saved by baptism? The Bible doesn't teach that.

 

[JLB]

Why should anyone think that anyone is saved by baptism? The Bible doesn't teach that.

This should be dealt with in a thread about this subject.

But to answer your question:

Because Jesus said those who believe and are Baptized will be saved. Mark 16:16

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

This should be dealt with in a thread about this subject.

But to answer your question:

Because Jesus said those who believe and are Baptized will be saved. Mark 16:16

JLB

The only verse in the Bible that says that. And...verses 9-20 are suspect as original because "the most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have" them.

If baptism was necessary for salvation, then Paul's answer to the jailer was a lie.

Also, it doesn't fit what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 1:14-17.

 

[JLB]

The only verse in the Bible that says that. And...verses 9-20 are suspect as original because "the most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have" them.

If baptism was necessary for salvation, then Paul's answer to the jailer was a lie.

Also, it doesn't fit what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 1:14-17.

Sounds to me like you are trying to "explain away" what Jesus said.

Why not just teach people to get Baptized, because that what the Apostles did.

There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21

Me personally, I just encourage people to do what the scriptures say to do.

If you want to teach people not to be Baptized, then you can explain why to Jesus when you stand before Him on the Day of judgement.


This should be discussed in another thread about Baptism's.


JLB

 

[dadof10]

How can an infant, be saved by what his or her parents do, and is not part of choosing to believe?


JLB

Because salvation is by Grace alone. It is by Grace that the infant was given to Christian parents, kept alive long enough to make it to the Church, brought to the water and baptized. He didn't earn any of it and has no concept of "earning" anything. Isn't "choosing to believe" something that has to be done in order to obtain salvation? Isn't it an act of the will? How is this different from "earning"?

 

[dadof10]

Whether one is cognizant of God's promises or not, ignorance is no excuse. God has already promised reward for obedience and faithfulness.


Or leave it.


Why should anyone think that anyone is saved by baptism? The Bible doesn't teach that.

Well, it does, as JLB pointed out above, but you are dodging the question. You defined "works" as "anything that one would do in order to earn God's salvation. Which can't be earned." Certainly there are things that humans do that we don't expect a reward for, so there are DEEDS that a person does out of love for God that wouldn't fall under Paul's definition of "works", right?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Isn't "choosing to believe" something that has to be done in order to obtain salvation? Isn't it an act of the will? How is this different from "earning"?

That would be like saying I earned my weekly paycheck because I got in a limo sent by my boss to go to his office to get it.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB

We don't have to wonder if believing is among the works Paul said can't justify a person. He plainly distinguishes between believing and all other work. Our error would be to start moving various works from the 'all other works' category over to the side of believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, it does, as JLB pointed out above, but you are dodging the question. You defined "works" as "anything that one would do in order to earn God's salvation. Which can't be earned." Certainly there are things that humans do that we don't expect a reward for, so there are DEEDS that a person does out of love for God that wouldn't fall under Paul's definition of "works", right?

But none of those access God's grace of salvation. Only believing does that.

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5 NASB)

So the argument is not about what deeds are the basis for gaining salvation, but rather what deeds did Paul say accesses God's salvation. He says believing. And Cornelius' household is the Biblical example of how to be saved purely on the power of believing to access that salvation.

 

[JLB]

That would be like saying I earned my weekly paycheck because I got in a limo sent by my boss to go to his office to get it.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB

We don't have to wonder if believing is among the works Paul said can't justify a person. He plainly distinguishes between believing and all other work. Our error would be to start moving various works from the 'all other works' category over to the side of believing.

The work of obedience is how we are saved, because it is a condition of faith.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.


Just like the example of the house of Cornelius, they receive the gift of eternal life by faith... and that faith was active because they repented, and received the forgiveness of sins unto eternal life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Only believing does that.

Repenting and believing does that.

Obedience can not be separated from believing, just like it can not be separated from faith.

That is why believing is called a "work".

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

Repent, which is a requirement of the Gospel Message, and believe the Gospel.

Repent means turn to God. Believe means commit to God.

How does one commit himself to God, without obeying Him?

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:19-21

If you are honest with what the scriptures say and the meaning of the words employed, you will see the principle of obedience that is involved in the gospel.


Faith, all by itself is dead, it it does not have the work of committed obedience to do what it hears, is dead.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Repenting and believing does that.

Obedience can not be separated from believing, just like it can not be separated from faith.

That is why believing is called a "work".

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

Repent, which is a requirement of the Gospel Message, and believe the Gospel.

Repent means turn to God. Believe means commit to God.

How does one commit himself to God, without obeying Him?

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:19-21

If you are honest with what the scriptures say and the meaning of the words employed, you will see the principle of obedience that is involved in the gospel.


Faith, all by itself is dead, it it does not have the work of committed obedience to do what it hears, is dead.


JLB

You seem pretty dead set on never being wrong or open to correction, so there will be no discussion between us about this.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sounds to me like you are trying to "explain away" what Jesus said.

Not at all. Explaining what Jesus said. Big difference,

Why not just teach people to get Baptized, because that what the Apostles did.

Because that's not what the Bible teaches.

There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21

How about let's consider the PREVIOUS verse, just for, you know, context.
v.20 - who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved THROUGH water.

Please note that the few people, 8 in all, weren't baptized by physical water during the flood. They were, however, saved THROUGH the water.

Seems the REST of mankind, including animals got the dunking" and were NOT SAVED by the water.

If v.20 had said "saved BY water", you'd have a point about being saved by water baptism. But as it is, there is none.

THEN, v.21 explains that "this water" SYMBOLIZES baptism that NOW SAVES YOU. It is clear that this baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, NOT water baptism.

Me personally, I just encourage people to do what the scriptures say to do.

That's what I have been doing for years. But for some reason, I get a lot of flak from people.

If you want to teach people not to be Baptized, then you can explain why to Jesus when you stand before Him on the Day of judgement.

Whatever would give anyone that silly idea?

 

[FreeGrace]

Well, it does, as JLB pointed out above, but you are dodging the question. You defined "works" as "anything that one would do in order to earn God's salvation. Which can't be earned." Certainly there are things that humans do that we don't expect a reward for, so there are DEEDS that a person does out of love for God that wouldn't fall under Paul's definition of "works", right?

I doesn't matter whether one "expects" a reward or not. That would dependent upon how well that person was taught what the Bible says about rewards. But clearly all our efforts, under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit falls under obedience and faithfulness and will be rewarded.

We earn rewards.

 

[FreeGrace]

The work of obedience is how we are saved, because it is a condition of faith.
JLB

Actually, the condition of faith requires 2 things: an object (something or someone in which to believe) and a purpose for believing.

So, saving faith requires the object to be the Lord Jesus Christ, and the purpose is for salvation, or obtaining eternal life.

1 Pet 1:9 says it this way: for you are receiving the GOAL of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Believing in Jesus Christ FOR a better job, life, car, etc, etc is NOT saving faith. Nor is believing in Christ FOR being a better person saving faith.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Let's see.
I was baptized as a baby.
I'm sometimes obedient.
I don't know of any rewards I've earned.
And I've certainly never had a ride in a limo so my boss could pay me.
So, am I saved?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And I've certainly never had a ride in a limo so my boss could pay me.

Oh, yes you have, Rollo.
God sent his Rolls Royce Limousine of faith to you. You climbed in. It takes you to the Father's house where He pays out a generous payday for which you did nothing to earn but which you got simply because you took the ride of faith to get it.

"(W)e have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand." (Romans 5:1-2 NIV)

Some people say water baptism is that ride. JLB says literally confessing with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord' is that ride. But believing all by itself is that ride. Those other things are just the expected things that the believer will do, the absence of which on the Day of Judgment shows that person to have either never believed to begin with, or to have stopped believing somewhere along the line, and as a result never got baptized and never confessed Jesus as Lord.

So, am I saved?

Stay in the limo and you are saved now and will be saved on the Day of Judgment. Your increasing obedience to God is the evidence that you are firmly seated where you should be.