Faith without works?

[Edward]

I want to start a church called 'The Fruits of the Spirit'.

You in?

:yes I'm in brother. I don't feel qualified to teach, but I can be a darn good doorman and greet people in the Lord, lol...

Yeah baby!

 

[chessman]

Are you trying to assert that since demons never believed then those who have the 'faith' of demons also never believed too? If so, is that a fair and logical assumption to make? Especially when you consider the demons did obey and submit to God at one time.

No, that’s not what I am asserting by the demon’s example. Nor is that what James is asserting. As you point out, just because the demons can “dance on the head of a pin”, doesn’t mean that humans can. It’s an entirely illogical process to conclude from the demon’s exampled 'belief' to prove any other example than the one point James was making. That is; that a ‘belief’ such as a fallen demon possess (one that doesn't save) was once one that did save humans. Who would ever do that? Not me. The only point James is making with his example, was that a beleif such as the demons hold DOES NOT save.

"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NIV)
I see Paul warning us not to lose the faith that saved us. So, people who had a genuine faith really can lose it and make all prior faith ineffectual toward salvation.

I agree. “I see Paul warning us not to lose the faith that saved us.” Period. End of story.

What assumptions do you then go on to make using this verse? Now tell me again about using improper assumptions such as with demons. Just how does that work?

“people who had a genuine faith really can lose it” Humm… I cry foul. I object your honor You are ‘assuming facts not in evidence’. Just like assuming facts about the demons’ prior belief (even if that were true) translates over to the gifts that humans receive via the Holy Spirit would be if one were to do that.

I'm not. Justification is the one-time thing.
And it is the continuing power, and conviction, and urging of the Holy Spirit through which we keep on believing in Christ's blood and stay under it's justifying power.

Okay, I agree. Justification is one thing. The “seal” of the Holy Spirit is another. Which is why I posted those Scriptures about the “seal”. Do you have any comment on them?

Keep trusting in the blood of Christ for justification through the forgiveness of sins (as opposed to working for that justification) and you'll stay sealed with God's seal of ownership, the Holy Spirit.

As Astor would say ‘Ruh-roh’. My point is that The Seal is the gift is the work of the Holy Spirit. The Seal is not a work of man anymore that the ‘belief in Him’ is. You’ve already agreed that the ‘belief in Him’ was a gift. So is The Seal. You never worked for it to begin with. Any more than you did the other gift. These texts all say and harmonize with each other this aspect of the Holy Spirit:

2 Corinthians 1:22 and [God] who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.​

God put His seal on us. Not the other way around. We didn’t earn it in the first place!

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,​

“also” is a word that’s there for a reason. There are at least TWO (not just one) things going on via the work of the Holy Spirit. 1 is salvation. 2 is the seal.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.​

“by whom you were sealed” None of these Scriptures say The Seal is “your previous trusting in the blood can be made null and void.” You say that. And frankly, I’m saying you words here are contrary to what these three passages say and seem to underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit as The Seal and place ‘the seal’ squarely on the shoulders of man versus where it belongs.

That Holy Spirit then serving as the guarantee of that which our faith has laid hold of.

Exactly!

And Paul warns us not to abandon this gracious gift of faith.
If that were not true, the Bible would not warn us to be sure to continue in the faith we surely have.

Your honor, council is ‘assuming facts not in evidence’.

I pass stop signs every day warning me that I would be breaking the law and risking lives should I not stop for them. Assuming that I don’t stop for them or will not in the future is simply an assumption without any evidence. In fact, I’ve never had a ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign. Yet, I’m glad the signs are there to warn me. Not to mention that I have a co-pilot (The Holy Spirit, The Seal).

Now, if there was a Scripture that said John Smith was once a saved AND Sealed Christian yet later lost his Seal, you’d have evidence admissible in court. But you don’t. And the evidence doesn’t come from James 2 (the OP topic) or 2 Peter 2's 'false prophets'.

You are simply assuming Paul’s (and other writers like James 2, 2 Peter 2) warnings are there for the reason you mean to apply it to.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It doesn't make sense that God would save us one day and lose us the next, save us one day and lose us the next.
God must have us all on big yoyo strings.
What does make sense is that God can and will make us stand to the end.
OSAS.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree. “I see Paul warning us not to lose the faith that saved us.” Period. End of story.

What assumptions do you then go on to make using this verse? Now tell me again about using improper assumptions such as with demons. Just how does that work?

What is it about the plain words of the verse that you do not understand? (Remember me talking about people making Christianity a religion where God doesn't really mean what he says?)

"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)

No assumptions are necessary. Paul says to believers that if they stop standing in faith on the gospel that saved them, they will have believed in vain in the gospel that saves.

Itching ears doctrine: "I'm a Christian and there's nothing I can do about it. That's just the way God wants it."

“people who had a genuine faith really can lose it” Humm… I cry foul. I object your honor You are ‘assuming facts not in evidence’. Just like assuming facts about the demons’ prior belief (even if that were true) translates over to the gifts that humans receive via the Holy Spirit would be if one were to do that.

Your honor, I introduce this clear evidence:

"2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthian 15:2 NIV)

It plainly says that any believer who does not hold firmly to the word preached to them (the word that saved them) has believed in vain. And the reason the church resists this plain evidence is because it has been indoctrinated to think that to believe you can lose your salvation is equivalent is to believe that salvation is by works.

Okay, I agree. Justification is one thing. The “seal” of the Holy Spirit is another. Which is why I posted those Scriptures about the “seal”. Do you have any comment on them?

Yes. You're depending on one meaning of 'seal' instead of the counsel of scripture itself that tells us the seal of salvation is dependent on a continuing faith in the forgiveness of God.

As Astor would say ‘Ruh-roh’. My point is that The Seal is the gift is the work of the Holy Spirit. The Seal is not a work of man anymore that the ‘belief in Him’ is.

Believing (trusting) is the work of man. That is the 'work' that is required of man to be justified. But the church can't grasp that because it has been taught that ANYTHING you do, even believing, is included in the works that Paul says can't justify. Show me where Paul says believing in Christ is included in the works that don't justify, and I'll show where he says it is not.

You’ve already agreed that the ‘belief in Him’ was a gift.

Nope. The ability to know the gospel is true, and the power to trust in that gospel is the gift. It's up to you and I whether we want to put that gift to 'work' for us in securing a declaration of justification.

So is The Seal. You never worked for it to begin with.

I 'believed' for it. But if a person continues in their indoctrination that any and all things that I do, including believing, is the work that Paul says can't justify then that person will believe what you're saying about the seal.

These texts all say and harmonize with each other this aspect of the Holy Spirit:

2 Corinthians 1:22 and [God] who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.​

God put His seal on us. Not the other way around. We didn’t earn it in the first place!

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,​

“also” is a word that’s there for a reason. There are at least TWO (not just one) things going on via the work of the Holy Spirit. 1 is salvation. 2 is the seal.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.​

“by whom you were sealed” None of these Scriptures say The Seal is “your previous trusting in the blood can be made null and void.” You say that. And frankly, I’m saying you words here are contrary to what these three passages say and seem to underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit as The Seal and place ‘the seal’ squarely on the shoulders of man versus where it belongs.

Your the one making the assumptions.

You assume 'seal' HAS to mean irrevocable and permanent and ignore all the Biblical counsel about salvation being dependent on your continued faith. And even when the church is shown the Bible's counsel they can't see it because of being so heavily indoctrinated by the church that even 'believing' can't be of man or else that would be the very works Paul says can't justify (instead of what he does say--that all work to be justified is CONTRASTED with believing in Christ for justification).

Your honor, council is ‘assuming facts not in evidence’.

Well, the evidence is present, but you have to be willing to set the indoctrination about faith/works aside to see it.

I pass stop signs every day warning me that I would be breaking the law and risking lives should I not stop for them. Assuming that I don’t stop for them or will not in the future is simply an assumption without any evidence. In fact, I’ve never had a ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign. Yet, I’m glad the signs are there to warn me. Not to mention that I have a co-pilot (The Holy Spirit, The Seal).

Now, if there was a Scripture that said John Smith was once a saved AND Sealed Christian yet later lost his Seal, you’d have evidence admissible in court. But you don’t. And the evidence doesn’t come from James 2 (the OP topic) or 2 Peter 2's 'false prophets'.

Soil #2 in the parable of the sower heard the word, responded, but did not last. And is Christ really telling us to not choke out fake growth in soil #3?

I've known a person for the last 27 years who got saved, spoke in tongues, but left the faith. But people like you say that's impossible.

You are simply assuming Paul’s (and other writers like James 2, 2 Peter 2) warnings are there for the reason you mean to apply it to.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm just reading what is written. Your doctrine is the one that has to make assumptions that the plain words there don't really mean what they say. It's a terrible habit the church has these days.

As our Catholic brothers will tell you. The Protestant Church's understanding of eternal salvation is in fact a very insecure assurance of salvation, because you never know if your obedience to date is real, or not. Whenever we Protestants see someone walk away from the faith we immediately say, "they were never saved to begin with". If that's true, how and why would any one of us find assurance in what we've been doing by the Holy Spirit? Think about it.

According to that thinking, when you think you've been showing the fruit of the Spirit and feeling good, that shows you're 'really' saved. It's interesting in this OSAS doctrine how the other person is the one that can fail, not you yourself, because you have the deeds to prove your salvation. But when someone else who does have the deeds of the Spirit fails they are assigned the fate of having never believed to begin with. How can anyone take comfort in their salvation in a doctrine like that?

The security of salvation is that you are continuing to believe in the forgiveness of God through Christ Jesus. No works involved to gain and keep that forgiveness. Just the ongoing confidence of the faith that justified you in the first place.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We never really understand the power of an indoctrination until we get set free from one.

 

[Navigator]

That's very succinct, and right on target. I agree. If we have faith then we'll put into practice what we are to told to do in the Word. Jesus only did what he seen the father do, we are to do what Jesus did. If we do not, then we are but hearers of the Word and not doers.

On the trinity, I believe it goes, the Father draws us to Christ, Christ Saves us, the Holy Spirit leads us and teaches us. All are one but do have different functions so to speak.

I agree on that for sure. All one God, same purpose, different responsibilities, but working in harmony with each other. One sermon I've heard concerning the Holy Spirit, by Tim Keller, said "Jesus is demanding acquittal of our sins through His work on the cross, and the Holy Spirit is daily convincing and convicting us that we are indeed saved and forgiven." That is a paraphrase, and is totally dependent on a faith in Jesus first. The Holy Spirit would not convince you that you are saved, if you indeed aren't saved.

To address the main thread topic, I think it's what most others have said. First John says that those who walk in the darkness cannot have the light. So a faith with no evidence is dead. We are SAVED by grace alone, but the outworking of the faith must produce some sort of good fruit, if it is to be considered faith.

 

[farouk]

I agree on that for sure. All one God, same purpose, different responsibilities, but working in harmony with each other. One sermon I've heard concerning the Holy Spirit, by Tim Keller, said "Jesus is demanding acquittal of our sins through His work on the cross, and the Holy Spirit is daily convincing and convicting us that we are indeed saved and forgiven." That is a paraphrase, and is totally dependent on a faith in Jesus first. The Holy Spirit would not convince you that you are saved, if you indeed aren't saved.

To address the main thread topic, I think it's what most others have said. First John says that those who walk in the darkness cannot have the light. So a faith with no evidence is dead. We are SAVED by grace alone, but the outworking of the faith must produce some sort of good fruit, if it is to be considered faith.

Navigator:

Light and darkness are opposed to one another, and the profession of divine light, and a walk in darkness is a contradiction: we can rather believe the fact of the walk in darkness than the profession of divine light. John's first Epistle says as much.

Blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It doesn't make sense that God would save us one day and lose us the next, save us one day and lose us the next.
God must have us all on big yoyo strings.
What does make sense is that God can and will make us stand to the end.
OSAS.

You must be thinking in terms of deeds, as if I'm saying a person loses their salvation if they have a bad day and haven't been obeying Christ. It's not that at all.

It's when someone who has accepted Christ eventually comes to the place where they no longer value the forgiveness they have received in Christ. Like the parable of the Unmerciful Servant in Matthew 18. The servant was indeed forgiven when he begged the King to be forgiven, but he later showed contempt for the forgiveness he had received, and so the King reversed his decision to forgive the servants debt. But OSAS says since the servant was demonstrating works inconsistent with the forgiveness he received that servant was never forgiven in the first place, and that the decision to forgive someone is irrevocable. But the parable teaches otherwise.

 

[chessman]

What is it about the plain words of the verse that you do not understand?

"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)

Nothing.

Now when you say:

Paul says to believers that if they stop standing in faith on the gospel that saved them, they will have believed in vain in the gospel that saves.

I find your words to be a misunderstanding of Paul's statements in 1 Cor 15. Specifically you assume Paul, because he says "brothers and sisters", I suppose, is only writing to "firm believers" and not some "vain believers". some there are saved (belived in Him) some are not but should be. they have just head knowledge, a vain belief. some are reading his letter that don't even believe in any resurrection, so How could the hold the gospel he preached to them? You've agreed that James says there is a belief that does not save (a head knowledge). Paul speaks of that vain belief here as well.

Obviously Paul knows there are vain believers reading his letter and wants these brothers and sisters in the firm camp. He's an evangelist for a reason. And obviously he writes to some of them as well as some who already are saved.
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

With all due respect, I cannot see how Paul is saying anything other than James is. Paul says there is a gospel that saves if (and only if) you hold firm to it Else you have "received" the gospel in vain (like a fallen angel can know the truth, yet not believe in Him).. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.

I do not disagree with that, nor misunderstand it.

IF (and only if) you hold to the Gospel Paul preached (firmly believe in Him) you ARE saved. "Otherwise( else in computer code) you have believed in vain."

I have zero disagreement with that. The vainness of fallen angel belief being one choice, the firmness of a belief in the Word such as Abraham and Rahab exampled being the other choice.

I don't disagree that Paul preached that Gospel to them either: 1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand (if you hold it firmly, that is)

I believe in OSAS and find zero disagreement with 1 Cor 15:1 or 1 Cor 15:2.

One thing I know for sure that it doesn't say is that there is a vain gospel that saves.

 

[Butch5]

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:14 (KJV)

I have heard a lot recently about faith in Christ is what saves us. In Sunday school we had a whole lesson on "saved by grace" and here on the forum there is definitely a lot of discussion about faith and about works. So what about faith requiring works to be saved? I know this is a fairly common topic and verse but what exactly are the works that faith in Christ requires?

Read the Sermon on the Mount, that's a good place to start.

 

[Butch5]

I like what you say here and it is sometimes tough for me to separate the two. To me it seems that faith in Christ would be shown by a passionate desire to tell others about him and how he can save. Another would be to put Christ above everything else.

Then there are things like loving your neighbor as you would yourself, being selfless, giving, slow to anger, humble and many more. Are these things considered works? Or deeds? I am pretty sure most people have done some of these things to some degree including people that do not have faith in Christ.

What you said about the works that are a sign to unbelievers that there is something different about us is what really stood out to me. I think that is the key to what scripture means by "works". Deeds like some that I mentioned in the paragraph above does not show how we are different because unbeliever's do these things too.

Hi Jeff,

The confusion about works stems from a misunderstanding of Paul's writings. One of the biggest problems that Paul faced in his ministry was the Judaizers. These were Jews who came from Jerusalem and were telling Paul's converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. This is the background to Paul's writings about works not being able to save. He is not speaking of anything a person does. There are many passages of Scripture that speak of the works one must do for salvation. Read Mat 25:40 through the end of the chapter. The righteous are the ones who do the works, the ones who don't do the works are the unrighteous. Jesus also said,

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.(Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)

The righteous are raised to life and the unrighteous to condemnation. Even Paul who is usually quoted in the works argument states that those who do good are seeking eternal life.

will escape the judgment of God?

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Rom 2:3-10 NKJ)

He says those who do good are seeking eternal life. The idea that works play no role in salvation flatly contradicts what he said here.

Let me suggest that you look at those passages that people put forward saying works play no role in salvation and study the context. Almost every single time you'll find references to the Mosaic Law. That's because when Paul speaks of not being saved by works he's referring to the Mosaic Law. He not saying any or all works play no role.

 

[Butch5]

I've been holding off on this.
I did not want to create a disturbance, but, here goes.
I don't have all the answers, I would like a better explanation.

John 6 says in verse 63 that the words Jesus has spoken is The Spirit and life.
Otherwise in the chapter, Jesus says in a couple of places that only the Father draws people to Jesus.
I can see how you would think that this is the Holy Spirit, but we know the Holy Spirit had yet to be given to us.
If it is the Father that draws us to Jesus, then the Holy Spirit must have a different role, if we do believe the three make up the Godhead.
It is faith in God that draws us to Jesus.

So does it require a work of the Holy Spirit in the heart to believe in Jesus?
Or is the Holy Spirit after the fact?
When I believed the word of God, I made a commitment to Jesus, and then I was filled with the Holy Spirit.

What role does the Holy Spirit have in receiving Christ?
I think that's a good question.
I think the Holy Spirit is more in keeping us in Christ rather than leading us to Christ.

Hi allenwynne,

The drawing of the Father in John 6 was specific to the Jews for the purpose of giving disciple to Christ. However, Jesus later said, If I am lifted up I will draw all unto me. So after the cross the drawing became universal. John also tells us this in his Gospel.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. (Joh 1:6-11 NKJ)

He says that true Light (Christ) gives light to everyone coming into the world. Light is used as a metaphor for understanding. This shows that there is no one who does not receive some kind of understanding from Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's important to see that Paul is saying works can not justify. And so it is that sense that works can not save. But the Bible definitely talks about saving ourselves by doing right.

There is no work you can perform to remove sin guilt (be justified)--no righteous thing that you can do to be forgiven. The only thing that can justify us is trusting in the blood of Christ to do that. So when the Bible speaks of 'saving yourself' by doing right (which it surely does) that is not to be confused with doing things in order to be justified.

Repentance from the deeds of darkness, through faith in Christ, will save you from the condemnation of those wicked deeds. So it is in that sense that our obedience, born of faith, does save us. That is how we do in fact 'save ourselves' by doing right. We just have to be careful not to confuse that with being made righteous (justified) by our doing right. That is IMPOSSIBLE to do. Only God's forgiveness can do that. A forgiveness that is secured by trusting in God to give it to you. That's why faith is the ONLY way to be justified. But you will surely 'save yourself' by responding in faith to that which God commands us to do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Read the Sermon on the Mount, that's a good place to start.

'Tis true.

If you want to know what being a Christian is all about, that's where a person can start. Paul has similar lengthy paragraphs about this, too.

For some reason, the church gravitates toward things like church attendance, giving money, and worship services, and evangelism as the duties that define the Christian and distinguish us from the unbelievers. It's dangerous to draw confidence and surety of salvation from those things. Character (what traits characterize you) is what distinguishes us from the world--peace, patience, kindness, love (for enemies), not holding grudges, faithfulness, etc...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nothing.

Now when you say:


I find your words to be a misunderstanding of Paul's statements in 1 Cor 15. Specifically you assume Paul, because he says "brothers and sisters", I suppose, is only writing to "firm believers" and not some "vain believers". some there are saved (belived in Him) some are not but should be. they have just head knowledge, a vain belief. some are reading his letter that don't even believe in any resurrection, so How could the hold the gospel he preached to them? You've agreed that James says there is a belief that does not save (a head knowledge). Paul speaks of that vain belief here as well.

Obviously Paul knows there are vain believers reading his letter and wants these brothers and sisters in the firm camp. He's an evangelist for a reason. And obviously he writes to some of them as well as some who already are saved.
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

With all due respect, I cannot see how Paul is saying anything other than James is. Paul says there is a gospel that saves if (and only if) you hold firm to it Else you have "received" the gospel in vain (like a fallen angel can know the truth, yet not believe in Him).. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.

I do not disagree with that, nor misunderstand it.

IF (and only if) you hold to the Gospel Paul preached (firmly believe in Him) you ARE saved. "Otherwise( else in computer code) you have believed in vain."

I have zero disagreement with that. The vainness of fallen angel belief being one choice, the firmness of a belief in the Word such as Abraham and Rahab exampled being the other choice.

I don't disagree that Paul preached that Gospel to them either: 1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand (if you hold it firmly, that is)

I believe in OSAS and find zero disagreement with 1 Cor 15:1 or 1 Cor 15:2.

One thing I know for sure that it doesn't say is that there is a vain gospel that saves.

What you're doing here is exactly what I was talking about. And I've been guilty of it! Making the scriptures say something else than what a simple read shows they are saying.

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)

Here is the logical representation of the passage (computer language).
It's a nested 'if-else' statement:

If ( Those who have received and taken their stand on the gospel )
{
    if( they hold firmly to that which they received and taken stand on )
    {
          they are/will be saved
    }
    else if( they do not hold firmly to that which they received and taken stand on )
    {
          they have believed in vain (as in a 'vain' effort) in that which can save them and will not
          be  saved
   }
}

In simple English, it means that among those who have received and taken their stand on the gospel, if they remain firm, they are/will be saved. Among that same group of people (those who have received and taken their stand on the gospel), if they do NOT remain firm in what they've received and stand on, they will NOT be saved.

I learned from some very pointed challenges from both believers and unbelievers to stop making scripture not mean what it so plainly says. And since I've done that, I have learned loads! Learning means not being afraid to dismiss church doctrine and being honest enough to consider that you may have been indoctrinated about something.

 

[JLB]

What you're doing here is exactly what I was talking about. And I've been guilty of it! Making the scriptures say something else than what a simple read shows they are saying.

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)

Here is the logical representation of the passage (computer language).
It's a nested 'if-else' statement:

If ( Those who have received and taken their stand on the gospel )
{
    if( they hold firmly to that which they received and taken stand on )
    {
          they are/will be saved
    }
    else if( they do not hold firmly to that which they received and taken stand on )
    {
          they have believed in vain (as in a 'vain' effort) in that which can save them and will not
          be  saved
   }
}

In simple English, it means that among those who have received and taken their stand on the gospel, if they remain firm, they are/will be saved. Among that same group of people (those who have received and taken their stand on the gospel), if they do NOT remain firm in what they've received and stand on, they will NOT be saved.

I learned from some very pointed challenges from both believers and unbelievers to stop making scripture not mean what it so plainly says. And since I've done that, I have learned loads! Learning means not being afraid to dismiss church doctrine and being honest enough to consider that you may have been indoctrinated about something.

Well said !

 

[chessman]

Here is the logical representation of the passage (computer language).
It's a nested 'if-else' statement:

If ( Those who have received and taken their stand on the gospel )
{
if( they hold firmly to that which they received and taken stand on )
{
they are/will be saved
}
else if( they do not hold firmly to that which they received and taken stand on )
{
they have believed in vain (as in a 'vain' effort) in that which can save them and will not
be saved
}

Don't quit your day job (brain surgeon).

How many IF's are in 1 Cor 15:1-2? One. Not two. Yet you code Paul's logic using two IFs (nested IFs) plus the ELSE. Thus your code yields three possible outcomes, not the two true possible outcomes Paul describes.

1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

Clearly there's no IF statement here. Yet you turn this phrase into an IF statement. It doesn't compile properly.

If ( Those who have received ...

It says "which" you received and I "remind you". Not IF you received...

Verse 1 is clearly a recall statement not an IF statement. It recalls a prior defined section of code (a global) into the immediate memory (local region). That is, THE GOSPEL is recalled and even repeated again for them in verse 3-8. But what about verse 2?

2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Now here's a phrase that begs to be logically coded with an IF THEN ELSE module of computer code. But programs don't just start with IF THEN ELSE lines of code. The code wouldn't know what it's input was. You need to define variables and constants and even recallable modules of code.

Global declarations:

People are unsaved (P=U) [Rom 5:12]
People need to be saved (P needs S) [1 Cor 1:18]

THIS GOSPEL = [Rom 6:For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. and repeated in 1 Cor 15:3-8]

Now for how P=S [1 Cor 15:2]

IF P executes the recalled module of code (THIS GOSPEL)
THEN P=S
ELSE P=U

2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Chessman, you're complicating this unnecessarily. But I understand that has to be done to protect the preconceived doctrine you defend. So others will read this, let's skip the task of writing logical statements (though it's interesting to do) and address the simple words of the passage.

A simple read of the passages shows that Paul is addressing a group of people who have taken their stand on the gospel--the gospel by which they are saved. And he says if they do not hold firmly to the word they believed and upon which they have taken their stand, they will have believed in vain:

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15: 1-2)

It's impossible to honestly make the passage mean their believing is not in vain if they stop standing in faith upon that which they have heard and which can save them. Impossible.

I personally have quit doing this to scripture--that is, making it say what it obviously is not saying. We Christians have to find the courage to acknowledge that the scriptures mean what they say and that we've been the victims of indoctrinations that teach us to not see what they really do so plainly say.

 

[chessman]

It requires a work of the Holy Spirit to lead someone to trust in Jesus Christ. That's what makes salvation the gracious gift of God that it is. For without the Holy Spirit no man would place his trust in that which he can't know is true except by the Holy Spirit convicting him it's true.

I agree. And you get this doctrine from what full council in Scripture exactly?

2 Cor 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.

Would that be one verse consistent with our agreed upon doctrine you state above?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You see, poor Chessman, the Church doesn't understand what it means to have a capable High Priest who does not fail in his duties to make atonement for the people of God for those who approach God and want that Atonement because the gentile church abandoned everything Jewish many centuries ago (what the church calls everything OT).

The fallout in this case is we see the scriptures about the perfect and infallible ministry of Jesus as scriptures that tell us there is nothing we can do to walk away from the forgiveness God has provided for us in Jesus Christ. Instead of seeing them for what they actually are saying in the context of all of scripture (which includes the 'passed away' parts to the left of Matthew). That atonement depends on the perfectly fulfilled duties of the High Priest, and so our confidence is in that, not that he performs them and there's nothing we can do about that.

You may not get what I'm saying because, as I say, we don't understand what the Bible is stressing when it talks about the ministry of Jesus Christ and his ability to keep those who come to him. It's not saying he keeps people against their will. It's saying he will not fail in his duties as High Priest to make atonement for those who are depending on him to do that. The duties of the High Priest never made atonement for the person who did not seek, and continually rely on, that work of atonement. But that is what the church has been taught is true about Christ's Priestly ministry--that is, you can stop having confidence in it, but that doesn't matter because you are OSAS.

If you're not understanding what I'm saying, just contrast God making us stand firm in Christ with God (trying) to make us stand firm in the likes of an Eli. It was impossible to stand firm with confidence in his ministry (and other pathetic priests). But in Christ our confidence is well placed and sure because God has provided us with his perfect ministry that will not fail. But if you lose that confidence, you can not continue in the perfect and sure ministry of Christ to atone for the people of God. Understand?