Bible Study Faith without works

[Christ_empowered]

not to go all Calvnist on y'all (I lean towards TULIP, etc., but I"m not amateur theologian..its complicated...) but... John 15:16.

someone who claims faith in Christ but has not fruit, bad fruit, and/or dead faith may very well be a false conversion. :-(

 

[Truthfrees]

not to go all Calvnist on y'all (I lean towards TULIP, etc., but I"m not amateur theologian..its complicated...) but... John 15:16.

someone who claims faith in Christ but has not fruit, bad fruit, and/or dead faith may very well be a false conversion. :-(

i agree

 

[Truthfrees]

Hi TF,
The page opened up to this and I'd like to post to you but after lunch -- no time right now.

Later.
JLB is right but why is he right---that's the question...

there are definitely different opinions of who does the work - but to say who is right and who is wrong is inaccurate

the best any of us in this discussion can go is to say we see this and you see that

the works of God imo are God doing the works

i don't see how anyone can claim man does a work of God

can man have a part in what God is doing? - yes for sure

did man do the work of God apart from God? - imo not at all

 

[Christ_empowered]

John 15:5

 

[chessman]

Good Morning Chessman,

Good morning Wondering and thanks for your time and study into these questions.

they'd be asking to do miracles as He did miracles.

Correct. That’s why they followed Him there. “To fill their bellies”. To do these miracles. Jesus says this, not me nor some commentary. Think about it!

A large crowd followed Him, because they saw the signs which He was performing on those who were sick.​

John 6:2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:2&version=NASB

they'd be asking to do miracles as He did miracles. This is possible, but I doubt it would be likely because of the great respect and fear they had of God.

Huh? They could respect God and still desire to have the power of miracles (His mighty works). But again, Jesus gives us the answer as to why they were following Him around AND why they asked Him the question they did in v 28. Jesus is your commentator on these two questions. Why were they following Him (because they saw His miracle works of healing the sick and feeding 5,000. And what were they desiring? To fill their bellies. With all due respect, it is quite obvious what their question is about. And furthermore, you found some commentators that agree with me on their question. Congratulations!

minds brighter than ours have studied this, and it IS the way I've always understood this,

Jesus’s mind (brighter than all our minds) tells us why they were following Him (which by the way, it wasn’t because they thought He was God and respected Him for being God. Jesus says so, not me). AND Jesus told us the desire they had (to fill their bellies). Thus their question. I know you think these were somehow devout ‘followers’ of Christ who were sincere pre-Christians, there following the Son of God around out of respect for Him. That’s just not what Jesus says about them. They certainly weren’t there because they thought He was God, nor God’s risen Son. That’s anachronistic.

You could also look these up yourself in biblehub commentaries and the verse. They all agree:

No Wondering, they don’t all agree. And I’d read commentators on the Bread of Life Discourse years before ever joining CFNet.

Here’s one of the commentators you quoted:

They had seen Him doing mighty works, which clearly showed the power of God. Are there for them works of a like kind?

This commentator is asking the right questions. What is your answer, were they asking Him essentially; How can we do the works of a “like kind” (work miracles)?

I say that’s exactly what they were asking Him. What say you.
[pause here and think about your answer closely. Hint. Forget about what JLB thinks and read why Jesus said they were following Him and what their desires were. Or at least read this guy’s conclusion. Hint, it’s mine too.

Christ answers, in words that illuminate their confusions and clear the whole matter, ‘This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.’

Right! There “confusion” was in their question! That’s my point! Their question was about how they too could work the miracle of making regular ole bread. Christ’s answer was about MORE.

So Jesus Christ had to escape from the inconvenient enthusiasm of these mistaken admirers of His; and they followed Him in their eagerness, but were met with words which lift them into another region and damp their zeal. He tries to turn away their thoughts from the miracle to a far loftier gift. He contrasts the trouble which they willingly took in order to get a meal with their indifference as to obtaining the true bread from heaven,​

​

 

[JLB]

adam and eve used their measure of faith God gave them to believe the serpent

Eve believed the lie, and rejected the truth.

If anything Eve actually departed from her faith and obeyed the serpent.


I’m not sure how a person “uses their faith”, to reject What God says.



JLB

 

[JLB]

This commentator is asking the right questions. What is your answer, were they asking Him essentially; How can we do the works of a “like kind” (work miracles)?

By obeying what God tells us to do, like Jesus did.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I say that’s exactly what they were asking Him. What say you.
[pause here and think about your answer closely. Hint. Forget about what @JLB thinks and read why Jesus said they were following Him and what their desires were. Or at least read this guy’s conclusion. Hint, it’s mine too.

Why not just read what the scripture says, and believe Jesus.


Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29


Please explain how you come up with it is God who is suppose to believe, when Jesus plainly says “you” believe.



JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

Why not just read what the scripture says, and believe Jesus.


Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29

you believing God is a work of God

 

[Truthfrees]

Eve believed the lie, and rejected the truth.

If anything Eve actually departed from her faith and obeyed the serpent.

I’m not sure how a person “uses their faith”, to reject What God says.

JLB

all the examples i gave were people believing someone/something other than God - when you believe someone/something other than God that is equal to using your God-given measure of faith to reject what God says

worrying is using your faith to believe bad things will happen to you

anyone can use anything God gave them to do good or bad - you can use your mind will emotions body possessions to do good or bad - to think good or bad - to believe good or bad

 

[JLB]

you believing God is a work of God - that's what Jesus said

Amen.


Our work that God has for us to do, is believe.

It’s the work of (from) God.


This work we are to do is to believe (obey) Jesus as our Lord.


Not religious rituals.

Not mans traditions.


We are to believe the teachings, the doctrine, the commandments, and the gospel of Jesus Christ, as His followers.


We demonstrate that we believe Him, by obeying His word, which is called the truth; we are to obey the truth.


If we want to be sent out to preach His gospel, and teach His doctrine, and to do miracles, signs and wonders, to represent our Lord, then we must first become His disciples; disciplined followers.



JLB

 

[chessman]

there are definitely different opinions of who does the work - but to say who is right and who is wrong is inaccurate

the best any of us in this discussion can go is to say we see this and you see that

the works of God imo are God doing the works

Some things (not all, yet! but some) can be proven either to be right or to be wrong. 2+2=4 not 5 or any other number but 4 that someone might have an ‘opinion’ is more correct than 4. When I was accused multiple times of not giving an answer (#2) to my own question (although I had multiple times stated my answer is #2) the accuser was wrong. He wasn’t holding a different but fractionally valid opinion that I hadn’t answered, he was wrong.

i don't see how anyone can claim man does a work of God

2041 érgon (from ergō, "to work, accomplish") – a work or worker who accomplishes something. 2041 /érgon("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).​

https://biblehub.com/greek/2041.htm​

Get it??? Ergonomics!

Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘ He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’”​

John 6:31 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:31&version=NASB

The Israelites did the work (ergo) of eating the manna. God is the One (and the only One) Who did the work (ergo) of giving them manna to eat (and they did eat it).

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work [érgon: deed (action) that carries out the intension, purpose] of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”​

John 6:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=NASB

Just as clearly as it was God’s (and God’s alone) action/deed/intension/purpose to give manna AND they eat it, it is His God’s action/deed/intension/purpose that we believe in Christ (Whom God has sent).

A believer (man, not God) has done the believing in Him, i.e. eating Him/mana.
He (not man) has done the work of sending Him/manna in which we ate.

That IS His purpose, His intension, His will. It is His will (and His work, His ergo) that is accomplished on Earth when we believe in Him.

 

[JLB]

all the examples i gave were people believing someone/something other than God - when you believe someone/something other than God that is equal to using your God-given measure of faith to reject what God says

I whole heartedly disagree.


However, that is your perspective and your right to think that.


Thats not using your faith to reject God, that’s simply unbelief, which is the exact same word as disobedience.



Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV



JLB

 

[JLB]

worrying is using your faith to believe bad things will happen to you

Worrying is unbelief.


Our faith is dead, until we obey what God says, by which we receive faith.


And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20


God moved upon this woman with the issue of blood, to touch the hem of His garment and be healed.

• For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”

She has faith in her heart to be healed by pressing in toward Jesus to touch the hem of His garment, and be made well.


If she decides to not believe, and therefore not obey the word by which she received faith, and go back to the doctor again, she simple does not believe, and therefore does not obey, and her faith remains dormant and inactive and does not produce the intended divine result that God desires.


Her faith does not work for something else.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Some things (not all, yet! but some) can be proven either to be right or to be wrong. 2+2=4 not 5 or any other number but 4 that someone might have an ‘opinion’ is more correct than 4. When I was accused multiple times of not giving an answer (#2) to my own question (although I had multiple times stated my answer is #2) the accuser was wrong. He wasn’t holding a different but fractionally valid opinion that I hadn’t answered, he was wrong.

I asked you to answer your own question, with the same set of numbered answers that you required others to answer.


You did not, until finally post number 70, after I had to ask repeatedly for a simple answer from the list you yourself provided.


Why not just answer your own question?



JLB

 

[chessman]

By obeying what God tells us to do, like Jesus did.

Therefore Jesus responded and was saying to them— “Truly, truly, I say to you— the Son can do nothing from Himself except something He sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One is doing, these things the Son is also likewise doing. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing. And He will show Him greater works than these, in order that you may marvel. “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives-life-to them, so also the Son gives-life-to the ones whom He wishes .​

John 5:19-21 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 5:19-21&version=DLNT

Who’s doing the work of giving life here?

Why not just read what the scripture says, and believe Jesus.

I have, which is why I believe It’s God’s work that I believe in Christ.

Please explain how you come up with it is God who is suppose to believe, when Jesus plainly says “you” believe.

Never have I said that it is God who is supposed to believe. Why do you so often falsely accuse me of either saying something I have not actually said or falsely accuse me of not saying something that I have said???

 

[Truthfrees]

Some things (not all, yet! but some) can be proven either to be right or to be wrong. 2+2=4 not 5 or any other number but 4 that someone might have an ‘opinion’ is more correct than 4. When I was accused multiple times of not giving an answer (#2) to my own question (although I had multiple times stated my answer is #2) the accuser was wrong. He wasn’t holding a different but fractionally valid opinion that I hadn’t answered, he was wrong.

2041 érgon (from ergō, "to work, accomplish") – a work or worker who accomplishes something. 2041 /érgon("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).​

https://biblehub.com/greek/2041.htm​

Get it??? Ergonomics!

Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘ He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’”​

John 6:31 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:31&version=NASB

The Israelites did the work (ergo) of eating the manna. God is the One (and the only One) Who did the work (ergo) of giving them manna to eat (and they did eat it).

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work [érgon: deed (action) that carries out the intension, purpose] of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”​

John 6:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=NASB

Just as clearly as it was God’s (and God’s alone) action/deed/intension/purpose to give manna AND they eat it, it is His God’s action/deed/intension/purpose that we believe in Christ (Whom God has sent).

A believer (man, not God) has done the believing in Him, i.e. eating Him/mana.
He (not man) has done the work of sending Him/manna in which we ate.

That IS His purpose, His intension, His will. It is His will (and His work, His ergo) that is accomplished on Earth when we believe in Him.

i agree with what you are saying - amen to all of this

 

[JLB]

The Thread title: Faith without works is dead.


A person receives faith when they hear the Gospel.

It's those who believe (obey) the Gospel who are saved.


16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says,“Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:16-17


Faith comes to a person when they hear God speak to them, however that faith must be activated in order to produce the intended divine result, otherwise it remains incomplete.



James explains -

• by works faith was made perfect

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac

The "works" James is describing is the work or action of obedience.


Not the works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn a wage


The work here that James is referring to is the work of obedience.


Works = The effort obedience requires.


James says that faith without this corresponding action of obedience, is dormant; inactive.


Just like a body without the spirit is dead, so faith without this obedience is dead, and is unable to produce the intended divine result.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


So the component of the Gospel that activates the faith we receive by hearing the Gospel is for us to obey the Gospel.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

• on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The work that God has for us to do is believe His Son.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Therefore Jesus responded and was saying to them— “Truly, truly, I say to you— the Son can do nothing from Himself except something He sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One is doing, these things the Son is also likewise doing. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing. And He will show Him greater works than these, in order that you may marvel. “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives-life-to them, so also the Son gives-life-to the ones whom He wishes .John 5:19-21 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 5:19-21&version=DLNT

Yes this is the point, and context of John 6.


Jesus did what He saw the Father do.

He obeyed.


Likewise we are to do the same, to get the same result.


Obey.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I have, which is why I believe It’s God’s work that I believe in Christ.

It’s not your work to do the believing?


How does God do the believing for you?


Maybe if you explained this, I would understand your position, more clearly.




JLB