Bible Study Faith without works

[JLB]

Mutually exclusive statements cannot be reconciled, by definition. Take the statement; I didn’t answer my own question. And the statement; I answered my own question. One and only one of those statements is logically correct. Now it’s true that someone can hold a different meaning to ‘answer’ in one statement than in the other statement (equivocation) and ‘reconcile’ the two different statements. But it’s a logical fallacy to change the meaning of ‘answer’ into no answer. I answered my own question, clearly.

But yes, I get your POV that there is some common ground between our two different views and I don’t necessarily disagree with that point.

Do you disagree with my answer?


Believing/obeying is the work of man.


Man needs God’s Grace to believe/obey, but it is nevertheless up to man whether to believe or not.







JLB

 

[JLB]

Anyone saying it is not the work of God but rather Men that believers believe in Christ is either 1) wrong or 2) equivocating over the word “work”.

It’s the word “of” that seems to be the point of contention.


The work “of God” in this context does not mean the work that God does, but rather the work from God.

It’s clear by the context, because Jesus says -


Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”


This is diametrically opposed to the mindset that they were conditioned to, which was doing the works of the law.


Jesus simply did what He saw the Father do.


This is how Jesus did the “works” of God.



By obeying His Father.




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Mutually exclusive statements cannot be reconciled, by definition. Take the statement; I didn’t answer my own question. And the statement; I answered my own question. One and only one of those statements is logically correct. Now it’s true that someone can hold a different meaning to ‘answer’ in one statement than in the other statement (equivocation) and ‘reconcile’ the two different statements. But it’s a logical fallacy to change the meaning of ‘answer’ into no answer. I answered my own question, clearly.

But yes, I get your POV that there is some common ground between our two different views and I don’t necessarily disagree with that point.



Yes, God desires that Jews and Gentiles, men from every nation to be saved. And they will be. It’s God’s desire to work this out!



Sure. My point (because it was Jesus’s point) is that the “and more” includes our believing in Christ:

Jesus responded and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.​

John 6:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=DLNT

Anyone saying it is not the work of God but rather Men that believers believe in Christ is either 1) wrong or 2) equivocating over the word “work”.

Which is why a previously posted it’s Biblical meaning.

Please don't use pronounds in the presence of two nouns. It confuses me.
Can you say this without pronouns please.

 

[stovebolts]

Yes sir.



However, concerning the Gospel and initial salvation, would you agree that it’s up to man to believe or not?


Yes, I believe God’s Grace, His divine ability and power are available to aide us, but the actual work or effort of believing and obeying the Gospel is up to man.


If not, then all would be saved.




JLB

I'm not sure I'm understanding why my answer wasn't adequate unless your an opportunist and eliminating universal salvation which wasn't part of my reply. Instead of asking me leading questions, can you ask me to elaborate on anything I've already said?

I mean, what have I said that would cause you to ask this question or bring UR into the conversation?

Had I not known your push to quash UR by piggybacking off my reply, can you see how this would be confusing for somebody that didn't pick up on that nuance?

 

[chessman]

O you of little faith?
“Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ Matthew 6:25-31


Maybe this conveys my perspective better.

Probably it does convey your perspective better yes, but it still doesn’t say worrying = unbelief.

Is someone who is of little faith, of little faith or no faith?

It’s the word “of” that seems to be the point of contention.


The work “of God” in this context does not mean the work that God does, but rather the work from God.

Really, the deeds/actions that God does is out of context???

But let’s look at your reasoning:

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Did God do the work (the deeds, the action) of sending the Son or did man?

Who did the work, the action, the deed of sending the manna to their fathers?

 

[chessman]

Please don't use pronounds in the presence of two nouns. It confuses me.

Can you point out exactly what’s confusing you and I’ll clarify it.

 

[JLB]

I'm not sure I'm understanding why my answer wasn't adequate unless your an opportunist and eliminating universal salvation which wasn't part of my reply. Instead of asking me leading questions, can you ask me to elaborate on anything I've already said?

I mean, what have I said that would cause you to ask this question or bring UR into the conversation?

Had I not known your push to quash UR by piggybacking off my reply, can you see how this would be confusing for somebody that didn't pick up on that nuance?

I just wanted too see if I’m being clear and how you perceive my post.


I’m not piggy backing on your post.


Just wanting to see if you agree.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Is someone who is of little faith, of little faith or no faith?

You of little faith, seems to indicate a lack of faith which indicates their worry.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Did God do the work (the deeds, the action) of sending the Son or did man?

What does that have to do with them doing the work of believing?


Makes no sense.


Jesus told them that they were to believe.


There are two people in our equation.


God and man.


Either it is God who is supposed to believe or man.


If not man, then the only option left is God is supposed to do the work of believing.


So which is it?

1. God does the work of believing
2. Man does the work of believing

 

[chessman]

This is diametrically opposed to the mindset that they were conditioned to, which was doing the works of the law.

Jesus’s answer was different than what they had been doing, works of the Law (which was also from God). That’s kinda the point.

You of little faith, seems to indicate a lack of faith

That’s basically the difference between how I understand a passage and how you interpret one.

Someone who is of little faith has well, just what it says, a little faith.

Unbelief means no belief (not belief), it doesn’t mean a little bit of belief not does it mean worry.

Worry does not mean unbelief.

 

[JLB]

Someone who is of little faith has well, just what it says, a little faith.

That’s what I said.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Unbelief means no belief (not belief), it doesn’t mean a little bit of belief not does it mean worry.

Unbelief can mean a person once believed, then they no longer believe.


Unbelief can mean a lack of or an insufficient amount of believing or obedience.


Or it can mean never believed at all.


The context is what dictates the meaning.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Good morning Wondering and thanks for your time and study into these questions.


Correct. That’s why they followed Him there. “To fill their bellies”. To do these miracles. Jesus says this, not me nor some commentary. Think about it!

A large crowd followed Him, because they saw the signs which He was performing on those who were sick.​

John 6:2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:2&version=NASB


Huh? They could respect God and still desire to have the power of miracles (His mighty works). But again, Jesus gives us the answer as to why they were following Him around AND why they asked Him the question they did in v 28. Jesus is your commentator on these two questions. Why were they following Him (because they saw His miracle works of healing the sick and feeding 5,000. And what were they desiring? To fill their bellies. With all due respect, it is quite obvious what their question is about. And furthermore, you found some commentators that agree with me on their question. Congratulations!


Jesus’s mind (brighter than all our minds) tells us why they were following Him (which by the way, it wasn’t because they thought He was God and respected Him for being God. Jesus says so, not me). AND Jesus told us the desire they had (to fill their bellies). Thus their question. I know you think these were somehow devout ‘followers’ of Christ who were sincere pre-Christians, there following the Son of God around out of respect for Him. That’s just not what Jesus says about them. They certainly weren’t there because they thought He was God, nor God’s risen Son. That’s anachronistic.


No Wondering, they don’t all agree. And I’d read commentators on the Bread of Life Discourse years before ever joining CFNet.

Here’s one of the commentators you quoted:
This commentator is asking the right questions. What is your answer, were they asking Him essentially; How can we do the works of a “like kind” (work miracles)?

I say that’s exactly what they were asking Him. What say you.
[pause here and think about your answer closely. Hint. Forget about what JLB thinks and read why Jesus said they were following Him and what their desires were. Or at least read this guy’s conclusion. Hint, it’s mine too.


Right! There “confusion” was in their question! That’s my point! Their question was about how they too could work the miracle of making regular ole bread. Christ’s answer was about MORE.

So Jesus Christ had to escape from the inconvenient enthusiasm of these mistaken admirers of His; and they followed Him in their eagerness, but were met with words which lift them into another region and damp their zeal. He tries to turn away their thoughts from the miracle to a far loftier gift. He contrasts the trouble which they willingly took in order to get a meal with their indifference as to obtaining the true bread from heaven,​

​

You brought up a very interesting interpretation and it required looking into. I never think I know everything...there's so much to know.

I'm not going to discuss this back and forth because what I found is that practically all commentaries agreed that they were not asking about how they could do God's miracles but how they could serve Him. As you stated, not 100% in agreement. Of course, I didn't post all of the commentaries.

You're right...not all who followed Jesus were doing so because they thought He was God or because they wanted to learn....some were curious, some wanted to see the "show", others wanted to check Him out --- much like today,,,there are different reasons why some want to find out about Jesus, but not all are believers and follow Him for this reason.

I liked your last sentence about why they were following Him....to get a meal, and He guided them toward more spiritual reasons to ask for bread.

Just for your information, JLB has nothing to do with what I post. I admire him and pay attention to what he writes, however, I do have a separate brain from his. I was surprised that you wrote that.

There's not much more to say. As you can imagine, I will bring this up for discussion the next time I see my Koine Greek bible friend and we'll see what he says about this. It'll be interesting.

ITMT, I have my doubts, thankfully it's not a very important verse.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29


The work of God (which means work from God; the work God expects us to do) is believe.

This is how Jesus operated.

He did what He saw the Father do.

He said what He heard the Father say.


He therefore got the the divine result of the obedience of faith.


The work that God has for us to do, is believe Him, and therefore obey Him.


This is man’s work.

JLB

If I already answered this...sorry.

I agree with you.
chessman is not questioning John 6:28, he's questioning John 6:27....what the people asked Jesus, not what Jesus replied - although that's up for discussion too.

I must say, he does understand John 6:27 in a different way than I had ever heard.

 

[JLB]

If I already answered this...sorry.

I agree with you.
chessman is not questioning John 6:28, he's questioning John 6:27....what the people asked Jesus, not what Jesus replied - although that's up for discussion too.

I must say, he does understand John 6:27 in a different way than I had ever heard.

 

[GodsGrace]

i had a conversation with a calvinist

i believe that God does the work and we accept or reject this work for ourselves

this calvinist insisted i was a synergist - in his mind there was only monogist and synergist - he could not conceive of someone who is neither

TF,
You cannot be neither!
You are either a monorgist or you're a synergist.
If there's something in between, you'll have to explain it to me.

There's a lot to know about calvinism. But the basic points are very easy to grasp.

Monorgist:
God predetermines everything....who believes, what happens on a daily basis, He's totally in charge. As you know, mono means ONE.

Synergist:
God makes man a part of the salvation scheme (economy).
Man is a partner with God for his salvation. God reveals Himself to man...man must reply with a yes in order to cooperate with God. Synergist means TWO.

Which of the above do you believe?

Do you think God MAKES YOU believe in Him?
Or do you think God revealed Himself to you and YOU believe in Him?

The first one is monorgism
The second one is synergism

The first one is determinism (God forces you to believe)
The second one is free will (you have the free will to believe or not).

Maybe you'd like to discuss this more?
It's not very difficult.

 

[GodsGrace]

there are definitely different opinions of who does the work - but to say who is right and who is wrong is inaccurate

the best any of us in this discussion can go is to say we see this and you see that

the works of God imo are God doing the works

i don't see how anyone can claim man does a work of God

can man have a part in what God is doing? - yes for sure

did man do the work of God apart from God? - imo not at all

For most biblical matters, I'd say that we can have differing opinions. For instance, Catholics believe in confessing their sins to a priest and we don't, based on study and our understanding of theology.

But we cannot both be right. When we get to heaven we'll find out who was wrong...but definitely one of us is wrong.

Now, we weren't present 2,000 years ago when the conversations in the N.T. took place and it was certainly a long time ago and a different culture (to say the least), so for something like John 6, we might take a step back and let it go. Who can know for sure what those people meant to ask?

However, we can be sure about the answer Jesus' gave. Jesus told the crowd the only thing they could do was to believe in Jesus --- there was no other work they could do; they certainly could not do the works that Jesus did.

JLB is asking you a very important question:
WHO is doing the work of believing?

1 Is God MAKING US believe in Him?
OR
2 Are we freely believing in God of our own will?

The first one is monorgism and determinism.
The second one is synergism and free will.

JLB believes in the second one because it's obvious he believes in synergism and free will.

You, OTOH, sound very much like the first one which is monorgism and determinism, which is calvinist BTW.

 

[stovebolts]

Can you point out exactly what’s confusing you and I’ll clarify it.

Sure, you said,

Sure. My point (because it was Jesus’s point) is that the “and more” includes our believing in Christ:

Jesus responded and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.
John 6:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=DLNT

Anyone saying it is not the work of God but rather Men that believers believe in Christ is either 1) wrong or 2) equivocating over the word “work”.

I was talking about God giving all of humanity the gift of the Holy Spirit to convict and woo us to Christ. Please know I am not talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is deposited in each adopted son of God.

You said, anyone saying it....
What is it? Is it our believing in God, or is it the gift of the Holy Spirit convicting and wooing us to belief?

My premise is that we can accept or reject God's gift of the Holy Spirit convicting and wooing unbelievers to salvation.

Perhaps I should have asked if we share the same premise? What exactly is your premise?

 

[stovebolts]

I just wanted too see if I’m being clear and how you perceive my post.


I’m not piggy backing on your post.


Just wanting to see if you agree.



JLB

If I understand you correctly, and I think I do, I would say we are in agreement overall. We see and articulate things slightly different but that's ok.

 

[chessman]

Unbelief can mean a person once believed, then they no longer believe.

Unbelief is a-pistos. It literally negates beief. It does not mean ex-believer.

Cognate: 570 apistía (the negated form of 4103 /pistós, "faithful") – properly, without (divine) persuasion, "no-faithfulness" (unfaithfulness);​

https://biblehub.com/str/greek/570.htm​

Unbelief can mean a lack of or an insufficient amount of believing or obedience.

That’s an unbiblical definition. No verse of the Bible uses it this way. 10 out of 10 times it means just what the definition is. Negates belief. Your interpretation is like saying unpregnant means just a little pregnant.
Unbelief means no belief, not an insufficient amount of belief.