Bible Study Faith without works

[GodsGrace]

Sure, you said,

Sure. My point (because it was Jesus’s point) is that the “and more” includes our believing in Christ:

Jesus responded and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.
John 6:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=DLNT

Anyone saying it is not the work of God but rather Men that believers believe in Christ is either 1) wrong or 2) equivocating over the word “work”.

I was talking about God giving all of humanity the gift of the Holy Spirit to convict and woo us to Christ. Please know I am not talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is deposited in each adopted son of God.

You said, anyone saying it....
What is it? Is it our believing in God, or is it the gift of the Holy Spirit convicting and wooing us to belief?

My premise is that we can accept or reject God's gift of the Holy Spirit convicting and wooing unbelievers to salvation.

Perhaps I should have asked if we share the same premise? What exactly is your premise?

I haven't been following along (was out almost all day)
but I do agree with what you're saying above.

God reveals Himself to man...in whatever way; by hearing the word, by experience--- Romans 1:19-20

Man responds to that revelation.

So it's both working...
God does HIS work by revealing Himself, especially through Jesus...

Man must decide if he wishes to respond to this revelation, or call, by God. So man would do the "work" of believing.

God does not do the believing for us.

 

[chessman]

You quoted this:

My point (because it was Jesus’s point) is that the “and more” includes our believing in Christ:

If it’s helpful, I was quoting the “and more” from what you just said in your post. You said: “All of this, and more is the work of God.” Which I agreed with. What I was saying is that one of the “and more” things you said is God’s work is that we believe in Christ. See John 6:29 where Jesus makes this same point.

Jesus responded and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.​

John 6:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=DLNT

You said, anyone saying it....
What is it?

The It = It is not the work of God that believers believe in Christ.

My premise is that we can accept or reject God's gift of the Holy Spirit convicting and wooing unbelievers to salvation.

I would say; unbelievers can accept or reject God's gift of the Holy Spirit convicting and wooing unbelievers to salvation. This slight change would avoid using an unnecessary and potentially confusing pronoun. But yes I agree with your premise here. I’ve seen it happen often.

 

[JLB]

Unbelief is a-pistos. It literally negates beief. It does not mean ex-believer.

Cognate: 570 apistía (the negated form of 4103 /pistós, "faithful") – properly, without (divine) persuasion, "no-faithfulness" (unfaithfulness);https://biblehub.com/str/greek/570.htm

Unbelief can simply mean disobedience.

I would caution you about basing your theological beliefs on just what commentary says.


Using scripture and context can add to our understanding.



JLB

 

[JLB]

That’s an unbiblical definition. No verse of the Bible uses it this way. 10 out of 10 times it means just what the definition is. Negates belief. Your interpretation is like saying unpregnant means just a little pregnant.
Unbelief means no belief, not an insufficient amount of belief.

Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
Mark 9:24


Did the father believe?




JLB

 

[chessman]

I would caution you about basing your theological beliefs on just what commentary says.

Thanks for the comment but I posted a Lexicon (dictionary) meaning of the word, not commentary about it.

 

[JLB]

Thanks for the comment but I posted a Lexicon (dictionary) meaning of the word, not commentary about it.

A lexicon meaning is mans commentary.

 

[chessman]

Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
Mark 9:24


Did the father believe?

The father of a demon possessed child (from childhood) said he did, Jesus didn’t. Jesus said he came from a crowd of unbelieving men though.

And one from the crowd answered Him, “Teacher, I brought my son having a mute spirit to You. And wherever it overcomes him, it throws-him-to-the-ground, and he foams-at-the-mouth and grinds his teeth and becomes-stiff. And I spoke to Your disciples in order that they might cast it out, and they were not strong- enough ”. And the One, having responded to them, says “O unbelieving generation, how long will I be with you? How long will I bear-with you? Bring him to Me”.​

Mark 9:17-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 9:17-19&version=DLNT


You’d have to ask Jesus if the father was telling the truth or not. IDK, myself. Context and what Jesus says indicates this father was a unbeliever.

But it still doesn’t mean unbelief means just a little belief (either way). Because it doesn’t in this verse or any other verse.

Technically the “my” in the verse isn’t in the original Greek. It’s inserted. It’s the father of a demon possessed boy asking Jesus to help his son. Literally, he asks; help of me the unbelief.

 

[JLB]

The father of a demon possessed child (from childhood) said he did, Jesus didn’t. Jesus said he came from a crowd of unbelieving men though.

And one from the crowd answered Him, “Teacher, I brought my son having a mute spirit to You. And wherever it overcomes him, it throws-him-to-the-ground, and he foams-at-the-mouth and grinds his teeth and becomes-stiff. And I spoke to Your disciples in order that they might cast it out, and they were not strong- enough ”. And the One, having responded to them, says “O unbelieving generation, how long will I be with you? How long will I bear-with you? Bring him to Me”.​

Mark 9:17-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 9:17-19&version=DLNT


You’d have to ask Jesus if the father was telling the truth or not. IDK, myself. Context and what Jesus says indicates this father was a unbeliever.

But it still doesn’t mean unbelief means just a little belief (either way). Because it doesn’t in this verse or any other verse.

Technically the “my” in the verse isn’t in the original Greek. It’s inserted. It’s the father of a demon possessed boy asking Jesus to help his son. Literally, he asks; help of me the unbelief.

I go by what the scriptures actually say, not what I speculate they are saying.


Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
Mark 9:24


According to the scriptures did the father believe?


Here’s a hint - The context.


Then one of the crowd answered and said, “Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not.”
Mark 9:17-18


The man certainly believed enough to go to His disciples to cast it out.




JLB

 

[chessman]

He guided them toward more spiritual reasons to ask for bread.

I agree. He was guiding them by His answer to more Spiritual reasons (God’s work) than to ask for bread (regular ole bread making ability). But that means they WERE asking about the ability to make regular ole bread miraculously (like He did) to feed their bellies. Which is my point about their question and His answer.

thankfully it's not a very important verse.

I disagree. The Bread of Life Discourse is quite important and understanding their motivation (and thus it’s meaning) behind their question is quite important.

 

[JLB]

The father of a demon possessed child (from childhood) said he did, Jesus didn’t. Jesus said he came from a crowd of unbelieving men though.

And one from the crowd answered Him, “Teacher, I brought my son having a mute spirit to You. And wherever it overcomes him, it throws-him-to-the-ground, and he foams-at-the-mouth and grinds his teeth and becomes-stiff. And I spoke to Your disciples in order that they might cast it out, and they were not strong- enough ”. And the One, having responded to them, says “O unbelieving generation, how long will I be with you? How long will I bear-with you? Bring him to Me”.​

Mark 9:17-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 9:17-19&version=DLNT


You’d have to ask Jesus if the father was telling the truth or not. IDK, myself. Context and what Jesus says indicates this father was a unbeliever.

But it still doesn’t mean unbelief means just a little belief (either way). Because it doesn’t in this verse or any other verse.

Technically the “my” in the verse isn’t in the original Greek. It’s inserted. It’s the father of a demon possessed boy asking Jesus to help his son. Literally, he asks; help of me the unbelief.

I’ve answered several of your questions.

I have a couple of questions you never answered.


Here’s 1 of them, just so I’m clear on what you believe.


Either it is God who is supposed to believe or man.


If not man, then the only option left is God is supposed to do the work of believing.


So which is it?

1. God does the work of believing
2. Man does the work of believing

 

[chessman]

According to the scriptures did the father believe?

According to the Scripture, a father of a demon possessed child from a crowd of unbelievers said: “I believe”. Just as this same father said that Jesus was a teacher of disciples who couldn’t cast out demons. I don’t typically believe what someone in from a crowd of unbelievers says is true. Fake news is not new news.

Here’s a hint

Here’s what Jesus said about the crowd (which a trustworthy hint versus listening to what someone from that crowd of unbelievers says):

And the One, having responded to them, says “O unbelieving generation, how long will I be with you? How long will I bear-with you? Bring him to Me”.​

Mark 9:19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 9:19&version=DLNT

 

[chessman]

Either it is God who is supposed to believe or man.

This is your assumption. Or do you have a verse that says it is either God who is supposed to believe or man? And you should really clarify what exactly you are talking about. Believe what??? Believe in what someone from a crowd of unbelievers says is true or believe in what God has said is true?

From the answer to these questions, you could then go on to ask a reasonable question based off of your assumptions.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree. He was guiding them by His answer to more Spiritual reasons (God’s work) than to ask for bread (regular ole bread making ability). But that means they WERE asking about the ability to make regular ole bread miraculously (like He did) to feed their bellies. Which is my point about their question and His answer.

I disagree. The Bread of Life Discourse is quite important and understanding their motivation (and thus it’s meaning) behind their question is quite important.

C,
Don't add words....you do this.
I didn't say Jesus' discourse is not important....
I said figuring out what John 6:27 means exactly does not serve much purpose. What does it matter what the crowd meant??

It's jesus' answer that matters.

 

[stovebolts]

You quoted this:
If it’s helpful, I was quoting the “and more” from what you just said in your post. You said: “All of this, and more is the work of God.” Which I agreed with. What I was saying is that one of the “and more” things you said is God’s work is that we believe in Christ. See John 6:29 where Jesus makes this same point.

Jesus responded and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.​

John 6:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=DLNT



The It = It is not the work of God that believers believe in Christ.



I would say; unbelievers can accept or reject God's gift of the Holy Spirit convicting and wooing unbelievers to salvation. This slight change would avoid using an unnecessary and potentially confusing pronoun. But yes I agree with your premise here. I’ve seen it happen often.

Thanks! Hey, wete all in agreement! Imagine that!
It's my daughter's birthday and we're going out to celebrate. Take care.

 

[JLB]

This is your assumption. Or do you have a verse that says it is either God who is supposed to believe or man? And you should really clarify what exactly you are talking about. Believe what??? Believe in what someone from a crowd of unbelievers says is true or believe in what God has said is true?

From the answer to these questions, you could then go on to ask a reasonable question based off of your assumptions.

So far I have two unanswered questions from you.


Here they are.

Number was from my original answer to your question.

Do you disagree with my answer?


Believing/obeying is the work of man.


Man needs God’s Grace to believe/obey, but it is nevertheless up to man whether to believe or not.

Number 2 is this one -


Either it is God who is supposed to believe or man.


If not man, then the only option left is God is supposed to do the work of believing.


So which is it?

1. God does the work of believing
2. Man does the work of believing

My answer is 2.

Man does the work of believing.


What’s yours?



JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

TF,
You cannot be neither!
You are either a monorgist or you're a synergist.
If there's something in between, you'll have to explain it to me.

There's a lot to know about calvinism. But the basic points are very easy to grasp.

Monorgist:
God predetermines everything....who believes, what happens on a daily basis, He's totally in charge. As you know, mono means ONE.

Synergist:
God makes man a part of the salvation scheme (economy).
Man is a partner with God for his salvation. God reveals Himself to man...man must reply with a yes in order to cooperate with God. Synergist means TWO.

Which of the above do you believe?

Do you think God MAKES YOU believe in Him?
Or do you think God revealed Himself to you and YOU believe in Him?

The first one is monorgism
The second one is synergism

The first one is determinism (God forces you to believe)
The second one is free will (you have the free will to believe or not).

Maybe you'd like to discuss this more?
It's not very difficult.

i believe God instigates everything - provides everything - leads us toward everything - and then we accept or reject - believe and receive - and do everything with God if we choose - or walk away from God and all He provides - God doesn't need us to accomplish anything - but we need God because we can accomplish nothing valuable apart from God

the definition of synergism i was told means God can accomplish nothing without us - which i do not believe - i will try to find what i was told and post it here

 

[JLB]

i believe God instigates everything - provides everything - leads us toward everything - and then we accept or reject - believe and receive - and do everything with God if we choose - or walk away from God and all He provides - God doesn't need us to accomplish anything - but we need God because we can accomplish nothing valuable apart from God

the definition of synergism i was told means God can accomplish nothing without us - which i do not believe - i will try to find what i was told and post it here

I despise labels.

It divides us into categories.


No Bueno.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

i believe God instigates everything - provides everything - leads us toward everything - and then we accept or reject - believe and receive - and do everything with God if we choose - or walk away from God and all He provides - God doesn't need us to accomplish anything - but we need God because we can accomplish nothing valuable apart from God

the definition of synergism i was told means God can accomplish nothing without us - which i do not believe - i will try to find what i was told and post it here

That's not what synergism means.
You must have been told this by a calvinist.
It's rediculous.

 

[JLB]

That's not what synergism means.
You must have been told this by a calvinist.
It's rediculous.

That figures.

 

[GodsGrace]

That figures.

It's rather disturbing TTYTT.
The guy is either lying or is not in any position to be telling others what he himself does not understand.

I feel badly that Truthfrees is now confused.