Familiar with Hanegraff?

[reba]

The problem being we seem to be afraid to draw the line at someone saying, 'the sky is green' for fear of not being loving.
Being loving does not mean we don't discuss doctrine. It means we do it in a considerate way. And where the church seems to fail the most in being loving in doctrinal discussions is refusing to 'listen' to those they disagree with and then hold unreasonable grudges against them which hardens them all the more to not being able to hear another word spoken. It's a joke.

I know in my spirit when i have crossed that line... i know the haha i got'ya feeling.. Having deleted a million of my own posts ... Totally agree Jethro... where i have often failed is not understanding not grasping the view others may take on my words.. back to the old forum line of not seeing faces..not being able to read eyes... again this paragraph of the TOS has been extremely helpful to me

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

I pray it becomes simply part of my nature

 

[civilwarbuff]

Of course I am included in that. You and civilwarbuff prove that.

For example, for all the discussion about non-OSAS vs. OSAS so many here STILL think non-OSAS is an argument for works salvation, even though I and others have repeatedly corrected with calm rebuttal that it's about faith, not works. But still, our words go unheard, and the deafness increases, and the high defenses go up higher and higher on the side of OSAS.

Plenty of osas threads hanging around.....please address that subject there.....

 

[Nathan]

The problem being we seem to be afraid to draw the line at someone saying, 'the sky is green' for fear of not being loving.
Being loving does not mean we don't discuss doctrine. It means we do it in a considerate way. And where the church seems to fail the most in being loving in doctrinal discussions is refusing to 'listen' to those they disagree with and then hold unreasonable grudges against them which hardens them all the more to not being able to hear another word spoken. It's a joke.

This is something people don't grasp. God listens to all of us. He even says "come, let us reason together...."

God, reasoning with man????

I think we should be able to do the same with each other.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Plenty of osas threads hanging around.....please address that subject there.....

I have no intention of discussing OSAS. I was using it as an example of what's wrong with the Protestant church in regard to how they handle doctrinal discussions. Law discussions are another good example of how unequipped the Protestant church is for handling mature doctrinal discussions. You say one word that doesn't agree with the programmed indoctrination of the church in regard to the law and they can't hear another word you say no matter how calmly, politely, and articulate you explain what you're saying to them. And to add insult to injury you get beat up for telling them they are that way. It's a joke.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I have no intention of discussing OSAS. I was using it as an example of what's wrong with the Protestant church in regard to how they handle doctrinal discussions. Law discussions are another good example of how unequipped the Protestant church is for handling mature doctrinal discussions. You say one word that doesn't agree with the programmed indoctrination of the church in regard to the law and they can't hear another word you say no matter how calmly, politely, and articulate you explain what you're saying to them. And to add insult to injury you get beat up for telling them they are that way. It's a joke.

Jethro that is another great thread to start....or several.....
What programmed indoctrination?....
What mature doctrinal discussions?.....
Start'em up.....please link me.....these are great discussions....but they have nothing to do with the OP, do they?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Start'em up.....please link me.....these are great discussions....but they have nothing to do with the OP, do they?

I suggested that the reason Hank went Eastern Orthodox was because he was sick of the fragmented, indoctrinated Protestant Church (OSAS, law keeping, Predestination...). I read an article this morning about Hank and it explored the reasons why he and others leave Evangelical Christianity for Eastern Orthodoxy. The disagreement on doctrine and the lack of authoritative, centralized leadership being among them. And with Hank being in the profession of talking to the church about doctrine it would not surprise me at all that he bolted because he's sick of the attitude of the Protestant Church. I know I am.

At first I could not understand why any non-Catholic Christian would go Eastern Orthodox, but as I read the posts in this and another thread it suddenly occurred to me why someone would. We're a joke. I think I'm beginning to understand a possible motive for leaving. Of course, we will not know why Hank left until he tells us, which, by the way, I think he owes those who have followed him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting going to the Eastern Orthodox Church is the answer for the insanity of the Protestant Church. I've merely expressed my new insight into why one would do that.

Where's Jim Parker when you need him, lol.

 

[Jim Parker]

And don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting going to the Eastern Orthodox Church is the answer for the insanity of the Protestant Church. I've merely expressed my new insight into why one would do that.

Where's Jim Parker when you need him, lol.

Hi ya!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi ya!

It's about time you showed up, lol!

 

[civilwarbuff]

The disagreement on doctrine and the lack of authoritative, centralized leadership being among them. And with Hank being in the profession of talking to the church about doctrine it would not surprise me at all that he bolted because he's sick of the attitude of the Protestant Church. I know I am.

At first I could not understand why any non-Catholic Christian would go Eastern Orthodox, but as I read the posts in this and another thread it suddenly occurred to me why someone would. We're a joke. I think I'm beginning to understand the motivation for leaving. Of course, we will not know why Hank left until he tells us, which, by the way, I think he owes those who have followed him.

I showed you, in pictures on another thread, what that centralized, authoritative leadership actually leads to.....things which you have personally taken a stance against such as the fancy churches which you have consistently derided insisting that money should not be spent on buildings. Are you ok with an authority, outside of the Holy Spirit, determining for you what you are supposed to believe?....Are you OK with 'tradition' equaling Scripture?.....Are you OK with kneeling before icons?......are you OK with the procession of bread and wine around as if it were the actual body and blood of Messiah?.....are you OK with the idea of anyone outside your church as without salvation? If so, then Orthodoxy may be for you.

 

[Jim Parker]

Also an essay refresher on Eastern Orthodoxy from a protestant perspective.

Really??
For an understanding of Orthodoxy, I would strongly suggest you consult Orthodox authors.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Really??
For an understanding of Orthodoxy, I would strongly suggest you consult Orthodox authors.

I have....which is from an Orthodox perspective. Would you not agree it is best to have both sides of a story before coming to a conclusion?
Do you have a problem/issue/disagreement with the essay? Is it incorrect?.....If so, please elaborate......

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you ok with an authority, outside of the Holy Spirit, determining for you what you are supposed to believe?....Are you OK with 'tradition' equaling Scripture?.....Are you OK with kneeling before icons?

Oh, I see. That's what centralized authority has to look like. That's what you're saying, right?
It didn't look like that in the Apostles days. And that's what I've been arguing for.....an anointed, authoritative body in the entire church that will tell us definitively exactly what Paul and others meant in the Bible (because, apparently, their plain words aren't enough). That's what we Protestants lack. In place of that we have this 'every man for himself' direction in the church. Which has made it so there is no point in being organized at all.

.....things which you have personally taken a stance against such as the fancy churches which you have consistently derided insisting that money should not be spent on buildings.

I don't recall taking that stance. I've dealt with what believers are actually doing in their buildings. Although I do believe churches should be simple buildings in which to facilitate meeting together in a public place.

True to Protestant rhetoric, you seem to have not 'heard' me say that I'm not endorsing the Eastern Orthodox Church, just it's fundamental position of having a centralized authoritative body and a single doctrine. THAT'S what I'm defending. Are you hearing me this time? These two things are two valid motivations for someone like a Hank Hanegraff disposing of his Protestant affiliation. I would certainly be inclined to abandon it, too, except what it means for me is having NO church at all since the Roman and Eastern Churches are the only church movements who seem to understand the value of a single doctrine and a single governing body to define that doctrine--like the early church had.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Oh, I see. That's what centralized authority has to look like. That's what you're saying, right?
It didn't look like that in the Apostles days. And that's what I've been arguing for.....an anointed, authoritative body in the entire church that will tell us definitively exactly what Paul and others meant in the Bible (because, apparently, they're plain words aren't enough). That's what we Protestants lack. In place of that we have this every man for himself direction in the church. Which has made it so there is no point in being organized at all.

I see you did not address one single thing I posted.....that speaks volumes....

I don't recall taking that stance. I've dealt with what believers are actually doing in their buildings. Although I do believe churches should be simple buildings in which to facilitate meeting together in a public place.

Then I am sorry that you seem to have memory problems.....

True to Protestant rhetoric, you seem to have missed the fact that I pointed out that I'm not endorsing the Eastern Orthodox Church, just it's fundamental position of having a centralized authoritative body and a single doctrine. THAT'S what I'm defending. Are you hearing me this time?

Never claimed you were endorsing EOC in any way but I demonstrated what a centralized authoritative body can lead to.......run with it as you will.....

 

[Papa Zoom]

This thread is losing its way. This is the lounge after all. :/

 

[civilwarbuff]

Agreed.....maybe time to close it since the OP seems to have run its course.......

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just your typical snarky Protestant prejudice. Is this thread somehow different than the others?

 

[civilwarbuff]

No one is being snarky here.....protestant or otherwise.........

 

[civilwarbuff]

Just your typical snarky Protestant prejudice. Is this thread somehow different than the others?

Just curious here....you seem to refer to protestant as though you are not a protestant, as though you are outside of protestantism..... Could you clear that up for us?

 

[Edward]

This is something people don't grasp. God listens to all of us. He even says "come, let us reason together...."

God, reasoning with man????

I think we should be able to do the same with each other.

This is proof that God has a good sense of humor. God reasoning with man and yet we know that our best is foolishness and rags to Him, because His ways are above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts. Lol.

We should be able to do the same with each other. God probably reasons with man on a level, as unto a child. () That's how we're supposed to be anyway.

Matthew 18:2-4
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.../(KJV)

Nobody ever has an ego problem or pride problem when speaking with a child, men humble themselves before children when talking to them. Most of the time at least, lol. If people would hold the perspective that (we're all children in christ, i.e., immature) and debated doctrines on that level, then we might not sound like a bunch of kids debating, lol.