Familiar with Hanegraff?

[Rollo Tamasi]

Why, everybody says I'm just a big ol' pussy cat, and agree with everyone.

Where's Barbarian ?
We need his opinion on this.

 

[JohnDB]

How do you know this?


That's an unrealistic conspiracy if you ask me.

Not really, most spiritual leaders that are truly tapped by God never wanted the job to begin with.

Hank has grown more dissatisfied with the job since he moved his HQ. It was an expensive move, the finger pointers had a field day when his accounting practices had a small error and the constant accusations of evil by the denominations that his Hermeneutics denounced and he missed time with his family.

You may not care for him...But he obviously wasn't out to "fleece the flock" and he did much to promote a consistent and logical defense of the faith. He never got hauled before Congress for making a huge pile of money.

Once upon a time, a long time ago Joyce behaved admirably. She crossed a line and kept moving in that direction until Congress stopped her.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Where's Barbarian ?
We need his opinion on this.

Actually, we don't......
However, if you have an opinion please feel free to express it......

 

[Papa Zoom]

We need Walter Martin back.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yep, I'm beginning to see a possible reason why Hank Hanegraff would go Orthodox Church. I think I'm getting it now.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Yep, I'm beginning to see a possible reason why Hank Hanegraff would go Orthodox Church. I think I'm getting it now.

And that would be?

 

[Nathan]

Yep, I'm beginning to see a possible reason why Hank Hanegraff would go Orthodox Church. I think I'm getting it now.

Come on, don't leave us hanging...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And that would be?

In Eastern Orthodoxy there is a central leadership that is in agreement on what is arguably some pretty sound doctrine, and which is completely separated from the Protestant Church. That's why.

I've long lamented the fact that the church doesn't have Paul and the 12 Apostles to keep rouge doctrines from fragmenting and destroying believers. And the Catholics love to rub our noses in that fact and laugh at all the loose cannons in our self appointed structure of leaders and their beliefs in all our various denominations. And while the Catholics may be unified in their doctrine and leadership it's clear that they are not God's answer to the church having a Paul and the 12 Apostles in all generations. And I think that's what makes the Orthodox Church so attractive to people who are disillusioned by what seems to be God's failure in the world to have a true unified visible church under a central anointed leadership.

I don't know the reason Hank dumped Protestant Christianity but I would not be surprised at all, now that it has occurred to me, that he did it because he, like so many people, including myself, are sick enough of the plethora of competing non-Biblical doctrines, and their power over people, to not have anything to do with the Protestant Church anymore. For me, though, it's been a matter of simply living out my remaining years alone, away from the church, and just accepting the mess the Protestant Church has created and leaving God to Judge the mess as he sees fit.

And the fact that most Christians, IMO, have not experienced the kind of personal relationship with God that Paul is talking about in Romans 14:17 NASB to notice how mind numbing and meaningless and 'not of God' liturgy is makes it so the particular issue of liturgy would not keep many honest Christians from going to a church like the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Maybe I'm getting a glimpse of what's going on in Hank.

 

[Papa Zoom]

In Eastern Orthodoxy there is a central leadership that is in agreement on what is arguably some pretty sound doctrine, and which is completely separated from the Protestant Church. That's why.

I've long lamented the fact that the church doesn't have Paul and the 12 Apostles to keep rouge doctrines from fragmenting and destroying believers. And the Catholics love to rub our noses in that fact and laugh at all the loose cannons in our self appointed structure of leaders in all our various denominations. And while the Catholics may be unified in their doctrine and leadership it's clear that they are not God's answer to the church having a Paul and the 12 Apostles in all generations. And I think that's what makes the Orthodox Church so attractive to people who are disillusioned by what seems to be God's failure in the world to have a true unified visible church under a central anointed leadership.

I don't know the reason he dumped Protestant Christianity but I would not be surprised at all, now that it has occurred to me, that he did it because he, like so many people, including myself, are sick enough of the plethora of competing non-Biblical doctrines to not have anything to do with the Protestant Church anymore. For me, though, it's been a matter of simply living out my remaining years alone, and just accepting the mess the Protestant Church has created and leaving God to Judge the mess as he sees fit.

And the fact that most Christians, IMO, have not experienced the kind of personal relationship with God that Paul is talking about in Romans 14:17 NASB to notice how mind numbing and meaningless and 'not of God' liturgy is makes it so the particular issue of liturgy would not keep many honest Christians from going to a church like the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Maybe I'm getting a glimpse of what's going on in Hank.

Protestantism is heresy according to the Orthodox church.

And the Church has been told to go into all the world. The Orthodox church failed here. They are no where near my area. They are few and far between as a matter of fact. So if they were the "True" church, they failed to "go into all the world."

As to "competing non-biblical doctrines" no one has a perfect theology. No one. And that includes you. You may as well include yourself in your assessment.

I too find myself frustrated with all the competing ideas throughout the Church. 4 (or more) views on Hell. Arguments about every aspect of belief. It's always been that way. Since the beginning, the Church has fought against false ideas and teachings. I doubt this has come as a surprise to God.

I respect that there will be differences among us. I also suspect that God intended it that way. So we'd have to do the hard work of understanding His Word. And since I am fallible, and recognize I've shortcomings, I know that I could be wrong in my views. But I have to plant my feet somewhere. I can't be tossed about by every wave that comes my way. If I can be fully convinced to change a view, I will (and I have). This is where we all are. We hold to our views because we believe them to be true. Unless someone promotes a false idea that is clearly an essential (like those who argue that Jesus didn't really bodily rise) I can live with that. There are plenty of non essentials to ignore.

 

[reba]

as long as any church has people in it it will have problems.. we aint perfect

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Protestantism is heresy according to the Orthodox church.

Well of course they think that. That's why they aren't Protestant.

And the Church has been told to go into all the world. The Orthodox church failed here. They are no where near my area. They are few and far between as a matter of fact.

Only in the United States. And it's hardly a matter they are not concerned about.

So if they were the "True" church, they failed to "go into all the world."

Do not get defensive. I'm not defending the Eastern Orthodox Church as being the true church. I'm defending the fact that they have fundamentally sound doctrine and that they as a whole church movement, not just a denomination of a church movement, agree on it.

As to "competing non-biblical doctrines" no one has a perfect theology. No one. And that includes you. You may as well include yourself in your assessment.

Of course I knew this was coming. This is typical Protestant rhetoric, but which only makes my point. If we had a Paul in the church you could not, and would not be able to say this.

I too find myself frustrated with all the competing ideas throughout the Church. 4 (or more) views on Hell. Arguments about every aspect of belief. It's always been that way. Since the beginning, the Church has fought against false ideas and teachings. I doubt this has come as a surprise to God.

What's different is we Protestants don't have a centralized leadership, anointed and appointed, to keep things straight. Anybody can start a church in Protestantism. You can, I can, anybody can, regardless of whether it's of God or not. And you can teach whatever you want, and you will still be in the 'Protestant' church.

I respect that there will be differences among us. I also suspect that God intended it that way. So we'd have to do the hard work of understanding His Word.

Basically, what you're saying is God left us to figure it out on our own. That's not Biblical. You know that, right?

And since I am fallible, and recognize I've shortcomings, I know that I could be wrong in my views.

Don't you realize that if the church had maintained a Paul and the 12 Apostles you wouldn't be saying this?
Do you think for a moment somebody under Paul's teaching said, "I know I could be wrong in my views"? Of course not!

The problem is we do not have a Paul, or a Peter in Protestant Christianity to tell us definitively without the possibility for refuting what a particular passage of scripture is saying. We have plain words, and they get ignored, but what we need is real authority, like a Paul, to just tell us the truth about things.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

as long as any church has people in it it will have problems.. we aint perfect

But the problem you will not have if we had a Peter or a Paul in the Protestant church is people formulating their own beliefs and causing strife and division--even leading people to damnation by what they teach.

 

[Nathan]

In Eastern Orthodoxy there is a central leadership that is in agreement on what is arguably some pretty sound doctrine, and which is completely separated from the Protestant Church. That's why.

I've long lamented the fact that the church doesn't have Paul and the 12 Apostles to keep rouge doctrines from fragmenting and destroying believers. And the Catholics love to rub our noses in that fact and laugh at all the loose cannons in our self appointed structure of leaders and their beliefs in all our various denominations. And while the Catholics may be unified in their doctrine and leadership it's clear that they are not God's answer to the church having a Paul and the 12 Apostles in all generations. And I think that's what makes the Orthodox Church so attractive to people who are disillusioned by what seems to be God's failure in the world to have a true unified visible church under a central anointed leadership.

I don't know the reason Hank dumped Protestant Christianity but I would not be surprised at all, now that it has occurred to me, that he did it because he, like so many people, including myself, are sick enough of the plethora of competing non-Biblical doctrines, and their power over people, to not have anything to do with the Protestant Church anymore. For me, though, it's been a matter of simply living out my remaining years alone, away from the church, and just accepting the mess the Protestant Church has created and leaving God to Judge the mess as he sees fit.

And the fact that most Christians, IMO, have not experienced the kind of personal relationship with God that Paul is talking about in Romans 14:17 NASB to notice how mind numbing and meaningless and 'not of God' liturgy is makes it so the particular issue of liturgy would not keep many honest Christians from going to a church like the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Maybe I'm getting a glimpse of what's going on in Hank.

Your not alone.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Well of course they think that. That's why they aren't Protestant.
Only in the United States. And it's hardly a matter they are not concerned about.

Not concerned about obeying a command of Jesus?

Do not get defensive. I'm not defending the Eastern Orthodox Church as being the true church. I'm defending the fact that they have fundamentally sound doctrine and that they as a whole church movement, not just a denomination of a church movement, agree on it.

They have their problems just like any group.

Of course I knew this was coming. This is typical Protestant rhetoric, but which only makes my point. If we had a Paul in the church you could not, and would not be able to say this.

Blame God. He didn't see fit to give us one. He gave the RCC a Peter and well all see how well that worked out.

What's different is we Protestants don't have a centralized leadership, anointed and appointed, to keep things straight. Anybody can start a church in Protestantism. You can, I can, anybody can, regardless of whether it's of God or not. And you can teach whatever you want, and you will still be in the 'Protestant' church.

Because God wanted it this way. Otherwise it would be another way.

Basically, what you're saying is God left us to figure it out on our own. That's not Biblical. You know that, right?

Then quote your Scriptures here. Also, yes God expects us to figure it out. Acts 17:11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Don't you realize that if the church had maintained a Paul and the 12 Apostles you wouldn't be saying this?
Do you think for a moment somebody under Paul's teaching said, "I know I could be wrong in my views"? Of course not!

Like the RCC right?

The problem is we do not have a Paul, or a Peter in Protestant Christianity to tell us definitively without the possibility for refuting what a particular passage of scripture is saying. We have plain words, and they get ignored, but what we need is real authority, like a Paul, to just tell us the truth about things.

Well we do have Jesus as our authority. And His Word. So there's that. Maybe you should convert then. Problem solved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Blame God. He didn't see fit to give us one. He gave the RCC a Peter and well all see how well that worked out.

I see you're not reading my posts very well. But that's part of my particular frustration with the Protestant Church. They don't seem to 'listen' too well.

I'm not saying you or anybody has to agree with me in order for you to be qualified as one who listens. What I mean is the greatest obstacle to talking to Christians is they simply do not take the time to 'hear' what you say.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I see you're not reading my posts very well. But that's part of my particular frustration with the Protestant Church. They don't seem to 'listen' too well.

I'm not saying you or anybody has to agree with me in order for you to qualified as one who listens. What I mean is the greatest obstacle to talking to Christians is they simply do not take the time to 'hear' what you say.

I read it just fine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then quote your Scriptures here.

God NEVER intended you to learn about him apart from his appointed and anointed leadership:

"11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." (Ephesians 2: NASB)

But, since the Protestant church does not have this centralized, anointed leadership we are left to not know the truth and argue about it amongst ourselves, and to make lame excuses of why we can't know the truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I read it just fine.

No you didn't.
If you had you would have noted that I said the Catholic Church, despite their centralized leadership and doctrine, has not succeeded in knowing and teaching the truth, and you would not have said what you did about them in response to me:

Like the RCC right?

 

[Papa Zoom]

God NEVER intended you to learn about him apart from his appointed and anointed leadership:

"11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." (Ephesians 2: NASB)

But, since the Protestant church does not have this centralized, anointed leadership we are left to not know the truth and argue about it amongst ourselves, and to make lame excuses of why we can't know the truth.

Where does it say centralized.

 

[Papa Zoom]

No you didn't.
If you had you would have noted that I said the Catholic Church, despite their centralized leadership and doctrine, has not succeeded in knowing and teaching the truth, and you would not have said what you did about them in response to me:

Did too!