Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[JLB]

• 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NIV] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
• [Romans 3:10-11 NIV] 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
• [1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Therefore, God does indeed act prior to belief (beyond sending Christ to die and be resurrected).

Please show from this scripture what it says that God did to save us, other than sending His Son to the cross on our behalf.

• 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NIV] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[JLB]

[John 6:44 NIV] 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Please show from this scripture what it says that God did to save us, other than sending His Son to the cross on our behalf.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Please show from this scripture what it says that God did to save us, other than sending His Son to the cross on our behalf.


JLB

 

[JLB]

• [2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NIV] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
• [Romans 3:10-11 NIV] 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
• [1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Therefore, God does indeed act prior to belief (beyond sending Christ to die and be resurrected).

• [Romans 8:29-30 NIV] 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
• [John 6:44 NIV] 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
• [Hebrews 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
• [Philippians 1:6 NASB] 6 [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Or better yet, what point are you trying to make, by saying that God acted prior to our belief, beyond send His Son to die on the cross for our sins, and raising Him from the dead.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

Or better yet, what point are you trying to make, by saying that God acted prior to our belief, beyond send His Son to die on the cross for our sins, and raising Him from the dead.
JLB

Just stating the truth:

1. "No one can come to Me (Jesus) unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. [John 6:44 NASB]
2. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), [Ephesians 2:3-5 NASB]

 

[atpollard]

Question:

Do you believe a follower of Jesus Christ, should believe and practice what Jesus Christ taught?

So no answer to what purpose would be served by answering the question again. Just more work for me to go and find my old post “just because”. It is easier to answer the question again, but this time the answer comes with a promise ... if you are only asking this to set me up to score a cheap debate point, then I am finished talking with you.

Answer: Yes, I believe a follower of Jesus Christ, should believe and practice everything that He taught and not just some of what he taught.

 

[JLB]

Just stating the truth:

1. "No one can come to Me (Jesus) unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. [John 6:44 NASB]

Brother this scripture is truth.

So in that regard, you stated the truth.


What this scripture doesn’t say, is God acted prior to our belief, beyond sending His Son to die on the cross for our sins, and raising Him from the dead.


JLB

 

[JLB]

So no answer to what purpose would be served by answering the question again. Just more work for me to go and find my old post “just because”.

No need to do any work searching, bro.

A simple honest answer is all I’m asking.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Answer: Yes, I believe a follower of Jesus Christ, should believe and practice everything that He taught and not just some of what he taught.

Thank you.

Good answer!


JLB

 

[JLB]

if you are only asking this to set me up to score a cheap debate point, then I am finished talking with you.

I honestly hate back and forth unfruitful debate.

I intended no “debate point”.


I think you have so much to offer this Forum, I don’t know why you just don’t answer a simple “non-trick” question.


I’m just trying to find out what you believe.


Not trying to debate.


Maybe later, when more people come on board, I can set up a one on one debate between two people if they want.

For now, we are just getting started.


I will probably go back and delete several of my posts where you and I are just butting heads.



Peace.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The idea God is easy, is so insane. God is Holy, God is dangerous, God is very other, where we need caution, awareness, humbleness, cleansing, knowing our frailty and His desire to speak with us and for us to know Him. To sacrifice, to dedicate ourselves to His ways and His perspective is everything.

I totally agree with you, Peter.


The fear of the Lord is a good thing.


It’s a fountain of eternal life.



The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life,
To turn one away from the snares of death.
Proverbs 14:27


However, there is a balance.


There are times when I’m in His presence and His deep and satisfying love and friendship are made known to my heart.


When I’m going about my work or daily routine, or in times of great challenges, it’s these times of intimacy that I reflect on, that give me strength.



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

I totally agree with you, Peter.


The fear of the Lord is a good thing.


It’s a fountain of eternal life.



The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life,
To turn one away from the snares of death.
Proverbs 14:27


However, there is a balance.


There are times when I’m in His presence and His deep and satisfying love and friendship are made known to my heart.


When I’m going about my work or daily routine, or in times of great challenges, it’s these times of intimacy that I reflect on, that give me strength.



JLB

My fear is to not get judgemental but also be aware of others perspectives.

It is easy to assume too much and then discover how lost some folk are.

A dividing line can be helpful, when differences are obvious.

 

[atpollard]

I’m just trying to find out what you believe.

Here is something that I believe in a format that might be more palatable to you:

• [Psalm 33:11 NASB] 11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart from generation to generation.
• [Isaiah 14:24 NASB] 24 The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand,
• [Acts 2:23 NASB] 23 this [Man,] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put [Him] to death.
• [Ephesians 1:11-12 NASB] 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

Whatever (all things) comes to pass, God has intended, planned and are according to His purpose. The LORD follows His own council, for His glory, and His plans stand forever. (I see nothing to indicate that this excludes our will/choice to believe.)

Corrie Ten Boon (Auschwitz survivor) described that fact as “God does as He pleases, and He does it right well”.

Reformed theologians like to describe it as ”God’s Sovereignty” ... God rules without any counsel except His own and what God decides is what comes to pass.

 

[JLB]

Here is something that I believe in a format that might be more palatable to you:

• [Psalm 33:11 NASB] 11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart from generation to generation.
• [Isaiah 14:24 NASB] 24 The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand,
• [Acts 2:23 NASB] 23 this [Man,] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put [Him] to death.
• [Ephesians 1:11-12 NASB] 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

Yes, It was predetermined beforehand that Jesus would go to the cross.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Whatever (all things) comes to pass, God has intended, planned and are according to His purpose. The LORD follows His own council, for His glory, and His plans stand forever. (I see nothing to indicate that this excludes our will/choice to believe.)

Corrie Ten Boon (Auschwitz survivor) described that fact as “God does as He pleases, and He does it right well”.

Reformed theologians like to describe it as ”God’s Sovereignty” ... God rules without any counsel except His own and what God decides is what comes to pass.

God is a Sovereign; A Potentate.

More specifically He is the King of kings and Lord of lords.


13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 1 Timothy 6:13-15 NASB


Sovereign - Strongs G1413 - dynastēs

1. a prince, a potentate
2. a courtier, high officer, royal minister of great authority

Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1 Timothy 6:15 KJV



which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1 Timothy 6:15 NKJV



God is the supreme ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords.




JLB

 

[atpollard]

God is the supreme ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords.

I agree, and as King of kings and Lord of lords, His council stands forever (Psa 33:11) and what He intends, will happen (Isa 14:24) by the predetermined plan of God (Act 2:23) ... including our salvation (Eph 1:11-12).

Thus we can understand that not only does the Potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay vessels for honorable and common use, vessels prepared for glory and vessels prepared for destruction (Rom 9:20-22), but that it is a true saying that salvation “does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy” (Rom 9:16).

 

[JLB]

I agree, and as King of kings and Lord of lords, His council stands forever (Psa 33:11) and what He intends, will happen (Isa 14:24) by the predetermined plan of God (Act 2:23) ... including our salvation (Eph 1:11-12).

Thus we can understand that not only does the Potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay vessels for honorable and common use, vessels prepared for glory and vessels prepared for destruction (Rom 9:20-22), but that it is a true saying that salvation “does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy” (Rom 9:16).

God’s will is not any should perish.


The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


The context of Romans 9 is the lineage of Christ.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Romans 9:3-13

The election therefore is about purpose, not salvation. The purpose being the lineage of Christ.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

[Rom 9:22-26 NASB] 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" 26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

Romans 9 is for all of the sons of the living God.

 

[atpollard]

God’s will is not any should perish.

Even if that is so (there is room for debate about who 2 Peter 3 is referring to by “any” and “all”), God clearly takes an active role in the Judgement that sends many to “perish”.

• [Mat 7:23 NASB] 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
• [Mat 25:41 NASB] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
• [Luk 13:27 NASB] 27 and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'

 

[OzSpen]

So far from what I have seen, Calvinist’s seem have their own set of extra biblical words and terms to define their theology.

JLB

JLB,

So do Arminians, e.g. prevenient grace, synergism, conditional election, etc.

See: Outline of the FACTS of Arminianism.

Oz